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Featured Did mind–body dualism exist before original sin?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by pittsburghjoe, Jan 24, 2021.

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  1. pittsburghjoe

    pittsburghjoe Member

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    We have a soul and body today but were we just a soul beforehand?

    Mind–body dualism sounds like wave-particle duality to me. Would that mean we were quantum waves before sin?

    Does sin have something to do with physical objects?
     
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  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    We did not exist prior to physical birth. Is this what you were asking about?
     
  3. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Truth In The Nebulous

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    A naked and unashamed wave-particle who eats forbidden fruit.

    We sin in our mind before the body gets involved.
    Genesis 6:5
    And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that
    every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
    [see Matthew 5:28]
     
  4. pittsburghjoe

    pittsburghjoe Member

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    I'm saying this physical reality of the fallen is from original sin.
     
  5. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Check first chapter of Jeremiah
     
  6. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Truth In The Nebulous

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    Is that based on the Bible, or the Dancing Wu-Li Masters?
     
  7. pittsburghjoe

    pittsburghjoe Member

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  8. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I'm familiar with the chapter but, with respect, you've misunderstood the meaning of those verses.

    We mortals did not exist as spirits before being put into a physical body.

    This commentary from EnduringWord.com may help--
    "Jeremiah was already a young man, but God wanted him to know that his call went back even further than his youth. Jeremiah existed in the mind and plan of God before he ever existed in his mother’s womb."
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  9. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Truth In The Nebulous

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    Genesis 1:
    1
    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    Physical Creation existed before sin. The invisible realm of the Spirit existed before the creation
    of the physical universe. 2 Corinthians 4:18 supports this, not the OP proposition.
     
  10. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Truth In The Nebulous

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    God's foreknowledge cannot be used to support man's pre-existence.
     
  11. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.We were hybrids, unlike our fellow mammals that did not have the ability to have God work through them. We just were not aware of the fact.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    That's Valentinian Gnosticism.

    Valentinianism - Wikipedia

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  13. pittsburghjoe

    pittsburghjoe Member

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    I don't think you are getting what scientific proof of Sin would do to wake the world.
     
  14. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    I'm not 100% sure what you meant to say. When I pointed to check Jeremiah chapter 1, it is because you wrote:
    And I take it you certainly don't meant we don't exist prior to birth.

    So, I took it you meant to say something like that we don't exist before we begin to form in the womb. Is that right? Is that what you are trying to say?

    And if you think God doesn't know us prior to forming us in the womb, then that's why I suggested you should check Jeremiah chapter 1, where you'd find:

    Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

    For which a mainstream understanding is:

    "Not merely by his omniscience, so he knows all men before their conception and birth..."
    Jeremiah 1:5 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse

    @Minister Monardo, what did you think the verse means. Basically, I have the mainstream interpretation is means what it says: God knows us before we are born, of course (I expect 0% of Christians think otherwise), but more: He knows us before we are even formed at all, also.
     
  15. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Truth In The Nebulous

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    Answered in post #10
     
  16. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Oh, no. It never occurred to me that how I phrased it might be understood to be saying that.
     
  17. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    What does this mean?

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  18. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    It seems maybe you are trying to battle false ideas/doctrines some few people have invented where we lived past lives (or such)?

    If so, I not sure we need to bring in that separate topic (to battle that false belief in previous lives and such) to this thread. Did you feel the OP is trying to suggest we already lived lives before being born in this life? I didn't get any hint of that at all in the OP, but I'll address the OP more directly next.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
  19. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    It's generally understood that we have "souls" because we are here in this life, because we have been embodied into these natural bodies. The soul is thought to come into existence when God puts spirit into a natural human body.

    Here's a typical explanation that is the mainstream Christian view:
    What Is the Difference Between a Soul and a Spirit?

    Let me add to this pretty good article that it's helpful to have some additional verses or more extensive bible reading than only a few select verses.

    For instance, after that article, it helps to consider facts such as the fact that God already knew us before we were even conceived in the womb(!) --

    Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

    (But that doesn't mean we lived some kind of life somewhere else before this life!)

    Here's another verse I think is helpful to know, in this deep topic:

    (6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
    and the golden bowl is broken;
    before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
    and the wheel broken at the well,)

    7 and the dust [mortal body] returns to the ground it came from,
    and the spirit returns to God who gave it.


    Of course, this says very clearly that God gave us our individual spirits.

    So, knowing some of these key verses can be helpful. Also, we notice that our individual spirit is returning to God (we learn here). The spirit is not just an aspect of the physical natural body. It is not an outcome of the body (so it's already different than the soul in that way). One explanation I've read (long ago) is that the 'soul' is the outcome (or created by the act of) of the individual's God-given spirit being placed/embodied into a natural human body.
     
  20. pittsburghjoe

    pittsburghjoe Member

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    Dust sounds like particles to me. And particles can be in waveform when not observed.

    The closest thing they would have had, at the time, was to describe it as "dust".
     
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