Did Jesus give us an Eleventh Commandment?

expos4ever · Mar 26, 2023

guevaraj said:
The new Eleventh Commandment was not possible before Jesus, as we could not have "followed" the example of Jesus' life before His arrival, allowing us to "surpass" the glory of the previous Ten Commandments by Jesus' example, as superior to commandments given without an exemplary life to follow.

I do not follow your reasoning here. Yes, I agree, Jesus adds another commandment (I think the other 10 are retired at the cross, but that is another discussion). But why would it be impossible to "sell all one's possessions and give the money to the poor" prior to Jesus?

guevaraj said:
Judaism sabotaged God's commandments by adding their own laws in a "human effort", as in the story of Hagar, to fulfill God's promise of separating sin from our character thanks to the cycle of forgiveness of our High Priest in the temple in heaven.

He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Eleven Commandments). This is a covenant not of written laws (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (reminding us to follow the exemplary life of Jesus). The old written covenant ends in death (sabotaged by human effort as in the story of Hagar); but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life (reminding us to follow the exemplary life of Jesus). The old way, with laws etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by human effort as in the story of Hagar), though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Eleven Commandments), now that the Holy Spirit is giving life (reminding us to follow the exemplary life of Jesus)? If the old way (Ten Commandments), which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way (Eleven Commandments), which makes us right with God! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way (Eleven Commandments). So if the old way (Ten Commandments), which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new (Eleven Commandments), which remains forever! (2 Corinthians 3:6-11 NLT)

Wow, you are really taking liberties with scripture here. Let's look at the first verse only for the moment. Here it is in your NLT:

He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life

...and here it is in the NASB

who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Now let's look at what you have done with the text. First, you obviously assume the very thing you need to make a case for by saying that the new covenant incorporates the 10 commandments. You need to make an actual case for this, not assume it. And that would be a tall order as Paul rather clearly hints at the demise of the Sabbath here:

So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality

You then take it upon yourself to edit Paul by taking this phrase:

The old written covenant ends in death

...and changing it to this:

The old written covenant ends in death (sabotaged by human effort as in the story of Hagar)

On precisely what basis do you know that the reason the old covenant ends in death is that it is "sabotaged by human effort"?

expos4ever · Mar 27, 2023

Original Happy Camper said:
No New Commandment

1 John 3:4 us
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

We have been over this text and how it is misleading many many times in these threads.

I just checked 31 different translations. Of them, 24 (>75%) says something like "sin is lawlessness". The point: there is no specificity to the Law of Moses. In other words, if the majority of the translations are correct, we can understand the author as saying that sin is transgressing of some law, but not necessarily the Law of Moses. And look what the Young's Literal Version has:

Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness,

I suggest the most accurate translations do not require us to see a connection to the Law of Moses.

guevaraj · Mar 30, 2023

expos4ever said:
We have been over this text and how it is misleading many many times in these threads. I just checked 31 different translations. Of them, 24 (>75%) says something like "sin is lawlessness". The point: there is no specificity to the Law of Moses. In other words, if the majority of the translations are correct, we can understand the author as saying that sin is transgressing of some law, but not necessarily the Law of Moses. And look what the Young's Literal Version has: Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness, I suggest the most accurate translations do not require us to see a connection to the Law of Moses.

Brother, the Jerusalem council did not abandon Moses and everything that came before Moses when it provided a seed list to add to, allowing the adoption of Moses and everything before Moses by the gentiles who were turning to God free of the added human traditions of Judaism that Jesus was against in the following passage.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)

James was not limiting what we need to obey, he was giving us permission to adopt Moses without forcing the human traditions of Judaism on us Gentiles, as we turn to God by giving us a seed, a beginning to add to. James saw us as the fulfillment of the prophecy where God would "restore the fallen house of David" as we listened to Moses every Sabbath. What that means is the equivalent of continuing Judaism without human traditions. The human traditions in Judaism led to death by sabotaging God's Ten Commandments so as not to take away sin that would otherwise have been taken away if they had done what God asked, instead of replacing what God asked with their own rules, in their "human effort" to help them obey the law by sabotaging the law so as not to take away sin, which made the law easier to bear. For example, in order not to use God's name in vain, Judaism added the human rule not to pronounce God's name to help obey God's law by preventing them from having to learn not to misuse His name. Judaism managed to bypass the active part of taking away their sin by replacing God's law with their own rule not to utter God's name at all.

When they had finished, James stood and said, “Brothers, listen to me. Peter has told you about the time God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people for himself. And this conversion of Gentiles is exactly what the prophets predicted. As it is written: ‘Afterward I will return and restore the fallen house of David. I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the rest of humanity might seek the LORD, including the Gentiles—all those I have called to be mine. The LORD has spoken—he who made these things known so long ago.’ “And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood. For ~~these laws of~~ Moses has been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.” (Acts 15:13-21 NLT fixed)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Mar 31, 2023

Leaf473 said:
They were changes, and that's the key

Brother, happy Sabbath, which starts this Friday March 31, 2023 at 11:57 am EDT! Are you referring to the following passage as a popular excuse to remove the law, claiming Jesus has fulfilled everything?

“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven! (Matthew 5:17-20 NLT)

Judaism can not accept Jesus as the messiah, because He died before fulfilling everything. Many did not believe in the resurrection to allow further fulfillment by Jesus after His death. Jesus can not be the expected messiah without the resurrection because Jesus has yet to be the rock that destroys all earlier empires and establishes a kingdom that will "never" end. We expect Him to fulfill what the prophets said about Him when He returns in all His glory after the judgment that began on October 22, 1844 determines all those who take part in the first resurrection.

In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands-- a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. (Daniel 2:44-45a NIV)

As Jesus tells us above, before all is fulfilled, He demands we obey Eleven Commandments that surpass the old way of only Ten Commandments. This is found in the next passage, where Jesus demands the new way with the additional Eleventh Commandment as the "one thing you haven't done" while keeping the previous Ten Commandments.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)

The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".

As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once. Dear children, I will be with you only a little longer. And as I told the Jewish leaders, you will search for me, but you can’t come where I am going. So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:31-35 NLT)

Adding one more Eleventh Commandment to the previous Ten Commandments is consistent with Jesus not changing and bringing us closer to Him.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Mar 31, 2023

expos4ever said:
I do not follow your reasoning here. Yes, I agree, Jesus adds another commandment (I think the other 10 are retired at the cross, but that is another discussion). But why would it be impossible to "sell all one's possessions and give the money to the poor"?

Brother, happy Sabbath, which starts this Friday March 31, 2023 at 11:57 am EDT! Giving "everything I have to the poor" is not an act of love in the following passage. All the commandments tell us how to love, disqualifying it as the "one thing you haven't done", when Jesus' answer was "the commandments". The "one thing you haven't done" is the newly known additional Eleventh Commandment of the new covenant: where to do "just as I have" is to follow Jesus' example, which was not possible before Jesus.

If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3 NLT)

Giving "everything I have to the poor" above is not an act of love for it to qualify as the additional new Eleventh Commandment in the passage below, where the known new Eleventh Commandment is to "follow" the example of Jesus.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)

The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".

As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once. Dear children, I will be with you only a little longer. And as I told the Jewish leaders, you will search for me, but you can’t come where I am going. So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:31-35 NLT)

Adding one more Eleventh Commandment to the previous Ten Commandments is consistent with Jesus not changing and bringing us closer to Him.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 NLT)

expos4ever said:
First, you obviously assume the very thing you need to make a case for by saying that the new covenant incorporates the 10 commandments? You need to make an actual case for this, not assume it. And that would be a tall order as Paul rather clearly hints at the demise of the Sabbath here:

The evidence that the new Eleventh Commandment was added to the previous Ten Commandments is found in the passage in Luke in the previous answer in this post.

expos4ever said:
So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality

Hebrews 3 and 4 tells us that the Sabbath in Judaism is wrong outside of Jerusalem, because Joshua did not benefit from the punishment for 40 years in the desert with Manna when God did not allow them to enter His Sabbath by forcing them to keep the seventh day of the week with Manna from morning to morning, like when God rested in Eden. When they arrived in the Promised Land, the Sabbath changed to an earlier time by half a day than the seventh day of the week from evening to evening, because the Sabbath is fixed in the time zone of creation, being the name God gave His rest on that seventh day of creation from morning to morning and not the name of the seventh day of the week as assumed since Joshua.

expos4ever said:
You then take it upon yourself to edit Paul by taking this phrase: The old written covenant ends in death
...and changing it to this: The old written covenant ends in death (sabotaged by human effort as in the story of Hagar)
On precisely what basis do you know that the reason the old covenant ends in death is that it is "sabotaged by human effort"?

The "human effort" Paul talks about in the following passage, comparing it to the story of Hagar, is humans trying to fulfill God's promise of obedience to the Ten Commandments by replacing them with their own rules that do not remove sin as the actual Ten Commandments do when obeyed. For example, instead of obeying God not to misuse His name, they instead invented their own rule not to pronounce His name at all when their own rule does not help to free them from the sin that the commandment was meat to free them from.

Tell me, you who want to live under the law (the rules of Judaism that does not remove sin), do you know what the law actually says? (The law says what is sin) The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife. The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise (the promise to remove sin from our character). But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise. These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them (Judaism is enslaved in sin because they sabotaged God's law to not remove sin). And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery (slavery to sin) ~~to the law~~ (added by the translators, not found in the original). But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman (free from sin), and she is our mother. As Isaiah said, “Rejoice, O childless woman, you who have never given birth! Break into a joyful shout, you who have never been in labor! For the desolate woman now has more children than the woman who lives with her husband!” And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise (the promise to remove sin from our character), just like Isaac. But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law (the rules of Judaism that does not remove sin), just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit. But what do the Scriptures say about that? “Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” So, dear brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman; we are children of the free woman. (Galatians 4:21-31 NLT fixed)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Mar 31, 2023

expos4ever said:
I am drawing the only plausible interpretation about Paul's use of the word "law" in this text - He is referring to the Law of Moses, not human tradition in Galatians 5:18: But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. You are claiming that He does not mean the Law of Moses here. You are asking us to believe that Paul suddenly, and without any indication whatsoever, shifts from using "the Law" to refer to the Law of Moses, as I have shown he is doing throughout the first part of chapter 5, to using the phrase "the Law" to refer to how "Judaism viewed obedience to the law"? That is a very big ask. Let Paul speak:

Brother, letting Paul speak: he tells us to use God's forgivenesses not to continue sinning as Judaism did by sabotaging God's law so as not to remove sin, but to obey God "wholeheartedly" to gain freedom from sin.

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (lawlessness)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God)? You can be a slave to sin (lawlessness), which leads to death (like Judaism's example of sabotaging God's Ten Commandments to not remove sin), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus's many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments)! Once you were slaves of sin (lawlessness), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey God's Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT)

Judaism's sabotage of God's law is explained by Jesus, where their rules prevented dealing with the law of God: stopping what comes into a person when God's law stops the sin that comes out of a person. Paul above focuses on the purpose of God's law to separate sin from our character, rather than their human effort to obey through human rules that sabotaged the purpose of God's law found in Judaism's obedience to the commandments. For example, Judaism obeyed not to misuse God's name by not pronouncing His name at all, when their human rule avoids dealing with the sin of using God's name sinfully. Had they obeyed God's commandment, they would have separated that sin that would come out of their mouth when they said His name, but their human rule prevented them from dealing with God's commandment so as not to remove the sin which God's commandment would have separated from their character.

You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’” Then Jesus called to the crowd to come and hear. “Listen,” he said, “and try to understand. It’s not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth.” (Matthew 15:7-11 NLT)

expos4ever said:
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. Where is there anything in this text of Romans 6 (above) that refers to the "man-made traditions of Judaism"? How is this relevant? No one, least of all me, is suggesting that the Pharisees did not impose human traditions and that Jesus criticized them for it. But so what? How does this justify your taking this passage below, where context strongly shows Paul is talking about the Law of Moses... But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law ....and arbitrarily rewriting it to say this: But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the traditions of men

Critical to the proper understanding of the passage is that God is Spirit: Jesus being God is Spirit. What is compared is Jesus' example of obedience to the Eleven Commandments as more complete than the written Eleven Commandments. To understand this comparison I will use the analogy of replacing a broken window. No doubt it is more complete to follow a professional installer's example than the instructions in a brief manual. The reason the old written law ends in death for Judaism is that they sabotaged God's law to not remove sin that Paul protects against by focusing on sin rather than obeying the law as Judaism did. Judaism obeyed the commandment of not misusing God's name by not pronouncing His name at all. This obedience skipped the law's purpose to remove sin from our character. They would have learned to use God's name without sinning had they done what God asked instead of replacing what God asked with their own "human effort" to obey that did not remove the sin that doing what God asked would have removed.

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ. It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own. Our qualification comes from God. He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws (Eleven Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus' example). The old written covenant ends in death (sabotaged to not remove sin); but under the new covenant, the Spirit (Jesus' example) gives life. The old way (written laws), with laws etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (Sabotaged to not remove sin), though it began with such glory (Ten Commandments) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away (sabotaged to not remove sin). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory (Eleven Commandments) under the new way (Jesus' example), now that the Holy Spirit (reminding us of Jesus' example) is giving life? If the old way (written laws), which brings condemnation, was glorious (Ten Commandments), how much more glorious (Eleven Commandments) is the new way (Jesus' example), which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory (Ten Commandments) was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory (Eleven Commandments) of the new way (Jesus' example). So if the old way (written laws), which has been replaced, was glorious (Ten Commandments), how much more glorious (Eleven Commandments) is the new (Jesus' example), which remains forever! (2 Corinthians 3:4-11 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

expos4ever · Mar 31, 2023

guevaraj said:
Adding one more Eleventh Commandment to the previous Ten Commandments is consistent with Jesus not changing and bringing us closer to Him..... Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 NLT)

Maybe so, but retiring the 10 commandments is, likewise, perfectly consistent with Jesus not changing.

We see this same invalid reasoning over and over from those who maintain the Law remains in force. They argue that if God's nature does not change, it cannot be possible for the Laws to change. That is obviously not the case. Suppose there is a caring father whose nature does not change over time - he remains a caring father all the time. Suppose he has a 15 year old daughter. His caring nature might lead him to impose an 11 PM curfew for her. Not fast forward to when she is 21 (and still living at home). It is obviously perfectly coherent for him to remove that curfew while not changing his nature.

In other words, it is perfectly coherent for God to modify the Laws he confers on us, including retiring some, and yet "be the same yesterday, today, and forever"

Perhaps you are not making this argument, but it seems to me that you are.

guevaraj · Mar 31, 2023

expos4ever said:
Maybe so, but retiring the 10 commandments is, likewise, perfectly consistent with Jesus not changing.

Brother, nothing has been retired from God's dealing with our past sins! Only circumstances have changed in dealing with the continuation of God separating sin from our character through His use of laws since the beginning. The bible describes the change from temporary shadows replaced with their eternal reality when the Father put Jesus as our High Priest to forgive our past sins. Jesus as our High Priest gives us as many chances as we need to master keeping His Eleven Commandments. Like a child who learns to walk by getting up again and again until he no longer falls. Jesus makes this cycle of many forgivnesses faster than it was with animal sacrifices when we turn daily in prayer to Jesus in the heavenly temple to forgive our past sins.

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (lawlessness)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God)? You can be a slave to sin (lawlessness), which leads to death (like Judaism's example of sabotaging God's Ten Commandments to not remove sin), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus's many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments)! Once you were slaves of sin (lawlessness), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey God's Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT)

expos4ever said:
They argue that if God's nature does not change, it cannot be possible for the Laws to change. That is obviously not the case. Suppose there is a caring father whose nature does not change over time - he remains a caring father all the time. Suppose he has a 15 year old daughter. His caring nature might lead him to impose an 11 PM curfew for her. Not fast forward to when she is 21 (and still living at home). It is obviously perfectly coherent for him to remove that curfew while not changing his nature. In other words, it is perfectly coherent for God to modify the Laws he confers on us, including retiring some, and yet "be the same yesterday, today, and forever" Perhaps you are not making this argument, but it seems to me that you are.

What you have described is how the change from before Jesus was our High Priest to now, when the Father made Jesus our High Priest, is a continuation of what came before. Temporary shadows were replaced by their eternal reality in Jesus, in keeping with Jesus not changing from before Jesus was our High Priest to after the Father put Jesus as our High Priest.

Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. (Hebrews 7:23-26 NIV)

We are not forgiven at the cross, giving us control over God's forgiveness to put aside His Eleven Commandments. We are forgiven when we turn daily to Jesus as our High Priest for our past sins, giving Jesus control over God's forgiveness when He asks that we keep His Eleven Commandments, as made clear by the daily shadow cycle on the earthly stand-in "copy" with the animal sacrifices.

“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ (Matthew 7:21-23 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

expos4ever · Mar 31, 2023

guevaraj said:
The evidence that the new Eleventh Commandment was added to the previous Ten Commandments is found in the passage in Luke in the previous answer in this post.

I see no such evidence. Yes, Jesus did tell people to keep the 10. But that can be explained by asserting that the Law only ends at the cross, not before. Remember Matt 5:17-18 - Jesus says that the Law will not pass away till "all is accomplished". What are Jesus's final words on the cross? "It is finished".

Coincidence? Methinks not.

expos4ever · Mar 31, 2023

guevaraj said:
Hebrews 3 and 4 tells us that the Sabbath in Judaism is wrong outside of Jerusalem, because Joshua did not benefit from the punishment for 40 years in the desert with Manna when God did not allow them to enter His Sabbath by forcing them to keep the seventh day of the week with Manna from morning to morning, like when God rested in Eden. When they arrived in the Promised Land, the Sabbath changed to an earlier time by half a day than the seventh day of the week from evening to evening, because the Sabbath is fixed in the time zone of creation, being the name God gave His rest on that seventh day of creation from morning to morning and not the name of the seventh day of the week as assumed since Joshua.

I do not understand what you are saying here. However, whatever it is you are saying, I do not see how, assuming we believe Paul is writing inspired scripture, we can misconstrue the following. It seems to me to be a clear, unqualified declaration that Sabbath observance of any kind is in the past:

So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality

To be frank, the reasoning here seems iron tight. Let me ask you some questions:

1. How can we possibly read the first sentence and not conclude that Paul believes that not worshipping on the Sabbath is worthy of condemnation?

2. Is not one of "these rules" in the 2nd sentence the rule about observing Sabbath?

3. Is it not clear from the 2nd sentence that "these rules", being shadows of a reality to come, have not been superseded by Christ?

With respect to point 3, let me be clear: if someone tries to argue that the "shadows" remain now that the reality is here, I politely suggest they are in abject denial how the logic of the sentence, and the image of something being "the shadow" of something.

Imagine how inane it would be for me to say "the parking laws we have been living under are a shadow of what is to come. Well that thing has indeed come yet I still consider myself to be subject to the old parking laws"

Leaf473 · Mar 31, 2023

guevaraj said:
Brother, happy Sabbath, which starts this Friday March 31, 2023 at 11:57 am EDT! Are you referring to the following passage as a popular excuse to remove the law, claiming Jesus has fulfilled everything?

“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven! (Matthew 5:17-20 NLT)

Judaism can not accept Jesus as the messiah, because He died before fulfilling everything. Many did not believe in the resurrection to allow further fulfillment by Jesus after His death. Jesus can not be the expected messiah without the resurrection because Jesus has yet to be the rock that destroys all earlier empires and establishes a kingdom that will "never" end. We expect Him to fulfill what the prophets said about Him when He returns in all His glory after the judgment that began on October 22, 1844 determines all those who take part in the first resurrection.

In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands-- a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. (Daniel 2:44-45a NIV)

As Jesus tells us above, before all is fulfilled, He demands we obey Eleven Commandments that surpass the old way of only Ten Commandments. This is found in the next passage, where Jesus demands the new way with the additional Eleventh Commandment as the "one thing you haven't done" while keeping the previous Ten Commandments.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)

The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".

As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once. Dear children, I will be with you only a little longer. And as I told the Jewish leaders, you will search for me, but you can’t come where I am going. So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:31-35 NLT)

Adding one more Eleventh Commandment to the previous Ten Commandments is consistent with Jesus not changing and bringing us closer to Him.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Yo dude, Grace and peace to you

No, I'm referring to what you wrote in #357, "These changes are not the popular belief...".

United in blessing the Lord

guevaraj · Mar 31, 2023

expos4ever said:
I do not understand what you are saying here. However, whatever it is you are saying, I do not see how, assuming we believe Paul is writing inspired scripture, we can misconstrue the following. It seems to me to be a clear, unqualified declaration that Sabbath observance of any kind is in the past: So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality To be frank, the reasoning here seems iron tight. Let me ask you some questions: 1. How can we possibly read the first sentence and not conclude that Paul believes that not worshipping on the Sabbath is worthy of condemnation? 2. Is not one of "these rules" in the 2nd sentence the rule about observing Sabbath?

Brother, the Sabbath kept in Israel since Joshua is a shadow of the correction Jesus gives us through Paul in Hebrews 3 and 4. Judaism's Sabbath since Joshua is only correct in Jerusalem and nowhere else like here in the United States. The other "day" Paul tells us of is not Sunday, but a fixed Sabbath in the time zone of creation in Eden. The Sabbath is what God named His rest on the seventh day of creation in Eden and not what He named the seventh day of the week. The Sabbath in Jerusalem falls half a day before the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem, because the Sabbath is separate from the week everywhere besides the site of creation in Eden.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)

God established the days from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning and subsequent days from morning to morning.

Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day” and the darkness “night.” And evening passed and MORNING came, marking the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NLT)

Every translation has wrongly assumed that God's expression: "the first of the Sabbaths" refers to Sunday when referring to Saturday, another way of referring to the seventh day of the creation week that we call Saturday.

long after the Sabbath (evening), as it dawns beyond Saturday (morning), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the tomb. (Mathew 28:1, my own translation)

expos4ever said:
3. Is it not clear from the 2nd sentence that "these rules", being shadows of a reality to come, have not been superseded by Christ? With respect to point 3, let me be clear: if someone tries to argue that the "shadows" remain now that the reality is here, I politely suggest they are in abject denial how the logic of the sentence, and the image of something being "the shadow" of something. Imagine how inane it would be for me to say "the parking laws we have been living under are a shadow of what is to come. Well that thing has indeed come yet I still consider myself to be subject to the old parking laws"

What is superseded is the assumption of the Sabbath being the same as the seventh day of the week since Joshua, that Jesus corrects through Paul in the message of Hebrews 3 and 4. There can only be one date line in everyone's background according to the Bible's common origin for all human beings as descendants of Adam and Eve. A date line shared by everyone from the beginning is at our origin in Eden, where God established the week.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)

The date line is where the change from one day to another takes place, inconsistent with the rotation of the earth. Inconsistent with the rotation of the earth, the date changes on the other side of Jerusalem.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

expos4ever · Apr 1, 2023

guevaraj said:
The "human effort" Paul talks about in the following passage, ....

Before I turn to the text below, I will point out what any careful reader will know - you have entirely ignored my argument that you are significantly changing the content of the 2nd Corinthians passage by changing Paul's wording. In my opinion, this is a entirely unacceptable approach to Biblical exegesis - it amounts to you saying "I know better than Paul". Again, you take it upon yourself to edit Paul by taking this phrase: The old written covenant ends in death...and changing it to this: The old written covenant ends in death (sabotaged by human effort as in the story of Hagar).

How do you justify such a move? It seems to me, and I suggest it will also appear this way to a neutral reader, that you have simply looked around for some story in scripture about misguided human effort and then just simply tacked it on, with no justification whatsoever, to the end of what Paul says in order to make your case.

guevaraj said:
comparing it to the story of Hagar, is humans trying to fulfill God's promise of obedience to the Ten Commandments by replacing them with their own rules that do not remove sin as the actual Ten Commandments do when obeyed. For example, instead of obeying God not to misuse His name, they instead invented their own rule not to pronounce His name at all when their own rule does not help to free them from the sin that the commandment was meat to free them from.

Tell me, you who want to live under the law (the rules of Judaism that does not remove sin), do you know what the law actually says? (The law says what is sin) The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife. The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise (the promise to remove sin from our character). But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise. These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them (Judaism is enslaved in sin because they sabotaged God's law to not remove sin). And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery (slavery to sin) ~~to the law~~ (added by the translators, not found in the original). But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman (free from sin), and she is our mother. As Isaiah said, “Rejoice, O childless woman, you who have never given birth! Break into a joyful shout, you who have never been in labor! For the desolate woman now has more children than the woman who lives with her husband!” And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise (the promise to remove sin from our character), just like Isaac. But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law (the rules of Judaism that does not remove sin), just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit. But what do the Scriptures say about that? “Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” So, dear brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman; we are children of the free woman. (Galatians 4:21-31 NLT fixed)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

"Fixed"? I suggest you are crossing a line here - taking it upon yourself to rewrite scripture.

You are tricking readers by using a less-than-precise translation. Let's talk about this part of the NLT text, above:

The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise (the promise to remove sin from our character)

Please stop misleading the readers! You have to know that almost all other translations have "according to the flesh", or something like this, and not "in a human attempt". You are effectively choosing a dubious translation to try to make this text fit into your exceedingly contrived argument. Paul is clearly not writing about "human effort" anywhere in this passage here - he is obviously writing about the distinction between those who are born into the ethnic group that is Israel, and those who are "of the promise".

Now let's talk about this next move of yours. Here is NLT verse 25:

And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia,[h] because she and her children live in slavery to the law.

...and here is "your" version of this:

And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery (slavery to sin) ~~to the law~~ (added by the translators, not found in the original)

Well, you are right, the reference to the law is not in the original. But you cannot simply insert your interpretation without making a case! You have taken it upon yourself to say that the issue is "slavery to sin". But the original text does not say this! It simply says these children live in servitude. And, in fact, we know that the word translated as servitude has been used by Paul in Romans 7:25 to refer specifically to slavery to, yes, the Law.

And finally, we come to this last example of you taking it upon yourself to edit, or as you call it "fix" scripture. Here is the original in the version you are using:

But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law, just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit

...and here is your version

But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law (the rules of Judaism that does not remove sin), just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit.

You simply add to scripture! The original does not have "the rules of Judaism" - you have arbitrarily added this in to suit your agenda!

In summary: you are engaging in systematic, unjustified tinkering with the words of scripture. Even though you admit (through the word "fixed"), I politely suggest this is unacceptable.

expos4ever · Apr 1, 2023

guevaraj said:
Brother, the Jerusalem council did not abanden Moses and everything that came before Moses

I am not concerned with what the Jerusalem Council did or did not do - I am concerned with what Scripture says.

guevaraj said:
when it provided a seed list to add to, allowing the adaption of Moses and everything before Moses by the gentiles who were turning to God free of the added human traditions of Judaism that Jesus was against in the following passage.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)

It is obvious what you are doing. You need to find a justification for taking a text reads thus in the literal translation:

Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness,

....and changing it to this:

Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is breaking the Law of Moses in particular.

So what do you do? You do exactly what I would do if I was motivated to adjust Scripture to fit my position - you find some text that points out that the Pharisees were adding human traditions to the Law, something we all agree is bad. Then you imply that since Jesus opposes man-made additions to the Law, this necessarily means He is affirming that the Law itself does not have an expiration date. But the one clearly does not follow from the other - it is perfectly coherent for Jesus to criticize the adding of human traditions to the Law while also signalling that the Law of Moses is soon coming to an end.

Stated otherwise, how does Jesus' opposition to man-made add-ons to the Law magically cause this:

Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness,

....to become this:

Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is breaking the Law of Moses in particular.

guevaraj · Apr 1, 2023

expos4ever said:
And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery (slavery to sin) ~~to the law~~ (added by the translators, not found in the original)

Well, you are right, the reference to the law is not in the original. But you cannot simply insert your interpretation without making a case! You have taken it upon yourself to say that the issue is "slavery to sin". But the original text does not say this! It simply says these children live in servitude. And, in fact, we know that the word translated as servitude has been used by Paul in Romans 7:25 to refer specifically to slavery to, yes, the Law.

Brother, happy Sabbath! You are not listening to Paul's message! Relying on bad translations that add to the word of God what is not in the original! Paul is not against God's law as assumed by those who misrepresent Paul's message. Paul is against the "human effort" in Judaism to sabotage the law of God to not remove sin, sin that the law of God is meant to remove. For example, Judaism obeyed not to misuse God's name by not pronouncing His name at all, when their human rule stops the purpose of God's Commandment to separate from us the sin of misusing His name. God's Commandment is meant to separate that sin from our character, that they prevent with their own rule that leads to death, because they are preventing God's laws from separating sin from our character.

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (lawlessness)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God)? You can be a slave to sin (lawlessness), which leads to death (like Judaism's example of sabotaging God's Ten Commandments to not remove sin), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus's many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments)! Once you were slaves of sin (lawlessness), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey God's Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT)

In the following passage, Paul again tells us that the law is good when used correctly and Judaism was not using the law correctly when they substituted their own rules instead of doing what God asked and that led to death.

We know that the law is good when used correctly. For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God. (1 Timothy 1:8-11 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

expos4ever · Apr 1, 2023

guevaraj said:
Brother, letting Paul speak: he tells us to use God's forgivenesses not to continue sinning as Judaism did by sabotaging God's law so as not to remove sin, but to obey God "wholeheartedly" to gain freedom from sin.

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (lawlessness)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God)? You can be a slave to sin (lawlessness), which leads to death (like Judaism's example of sabotaging God's Ten Commandments to not remove sin), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus's many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments)! Once you were slaves of sin (lawlessness), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey God's Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT)

You keep on editing the word of God right before our eyes! This is completely unacceptable. Do you really think anyone who is reading your posts will not realize that you repeatedly alter the very texts that we are all supposed to believe are sacrosanct?

Again, let me point out what you are doing.

Scripture says this:

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not!

You change it - you alter divinely inspired words - in order to make it say this:

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (lawlessness)? Of course not

You are intentionally altering the Bible to suit your view. I do not believe I have ever seen another poster do this here. You add the words "of Judaism" to misrepresent what Paul actually says, that we are free from the "the law". Now then, I think it is clear from context that Paul is actually referring to the Law of Moses, but I would never in my wildest dreams deign to do what you are doing - altering the text itself! You apparently think it is Ok to pass off your own words as Scripture. You are trying to dupe readers into believing that Paul is criticizing man-made additions to the Law of Moses. Well, make an actual case then, do not change the words of holy writ!

And here you simply add the phrase "11 Commandments":

You can be a slave to sin (lawlessness), which leads to death (like Judaism's example of sabotaging God's Ten Commandments to not remove sin), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments - Your addition, not there in scripture),

And, yet again, you alter the text here to suit your position:

Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey God's Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments

The actual text nowhere mentions 11 commandment, or even one commandment for that matter.

Please stop rewriting scripture.

guevaraj · Apr 1, 2023

expos4ever said:
you alter divinely inspired words - in order to make it say this:

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (lawlessness)? Of course not

You are intentionally altering the Bible to suit your view... Please stop rewriting scripture.

Brother, Paul is deep and most of what he says is a summary of what is expanded elsewhere as he tells us in the following passage. You need to read more than misunderstood selected pieces to understand his message. Most of what Paul says is not for "infants in Christ". He addresses "spiritual people" in ways that are difficult for "infants in Christ" to understand.

Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? (1 Corinthians 3:1-4 NLT)

Paul assumes the listener knows what is written elsewhere and uses summary words like "the law" where the word has already been expanded elsewhere. Here is evidence that when he uses the word law, unqualified, he is referring to the law of Judaism Jesus has freed us from as accepted in the Jerusalem council expressed by James. The Jerusalem council did not abandon Moses and everything that came before Moses when it provided a seed list to add to, allowing the adoption of Moses and everything before Moses by the gentiles who were turning to God free of the added human traditions of Judaism that Jesus was against in the following passage.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)

James was not limiting what we need to obey, he was giving us permission to adopt Moses without forcing the human traditions of Judaism on us Gentiles, as we turn to God by giving us a seed, a beginning to add to. James saw us as the fulfillment of the prophecy where God would "restore the fallen house of David" as we listened to Moses every Sabbath. What that means is the equivalent of continuing Judaism without human traditions. The human traditions in Judaism led to death by sabotaging God's Ten Commandments so as not to take away sin that would otherwise have been taken away if they had done what God asked, instead of replacing what God asked with their own rules, in their "human effort" to help them obey the law by sabotaging the law so as not to take away sin, which made the law easier to bear. For example, in order not to use God's name in vain, Judaism added the human rule not to pronounce God's name to help obey God's law by preventing them from having to learn not to misuse His name. Judaism managed to bypass the active part of taking away their sin by replacing God's law with their own rule not to utter God's name at all.

When they had finished, James stood and said, “Brothers, listen to me. Peter has told you about the time God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people for himself. And this conversion of Gentiles is exactly what the prophets predicted. As it is written: ‘Afterward I will return and restore the fallen house of David. I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the rest of humanity might seek the LORD, including the Gentiles—all those I have called to be mine. The LORD has spoken—he who made these things known so long ago.’ “And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood. For ~~these laws of~~ Moses has been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.” (Acts 15:13-21 NLT fixed)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

expos4ever · Apr 1, 2023

guevaraj said:
Brother, nothing has been retired from God's dealing with our past sins! Only circumstances have changed in dealing with the continuation of God separating sin from our character through His use of laws since the beginning. The bible describes the change from temporary shadows replaced with their eternal reality when the Father put Jesus as our High Priest to forgive our past sins. Jesus as our High Priest gives us as many chances as we need to master keeping His Eleven Commandments. Like a child who learns to walk by getting up again and again until he no longer falls. Jesus makes this cycle of many forgivnesses faster than it was with animal sacrifices when we turn daily in prayer to Jesus in the heavenly temple to forgive our past sins.

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (lawlessness)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God)? You can be a slave to sin (lawlessness), which leads to death (like Judaism's example of sabotaging God's Ten Commandments to not remove sin), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus's many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments)! Once you were slaves of sin (lawlessness), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey God's Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT)

What you have described is how the change from before Jesus was our High Priest to now, when the Father made Jesus our High Priest, is a continuation of what came before. Temporary shadows were replaced by their eternal reality in Jesus, in keeping with Jesus not changing from before Jesus was our High Priest to after the Father put Jesus as our High Priest.

What, exactly, are you saying here? Paul is clear: the Sabbath is a shadow of what is to come. And the "what is to come" is Jesus. Once Jesus is here, the shadows depart - that is the "shadow of things to come" metaphor actually works.

guevaraj said:
Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. (Hebrews 7:23-26 NIV)

We are not forgiven at the cross, giving us control over God's forgiveness to put aside His Eleven Commandments. We are forgiven when we turn daily to Jesus as our High Priest for our past sins, giving Jesus control over God's forgiveness when He asks that we keep His Eleven Commandments, as made clear by the daily shadow cycle on the earthly stand-in "copy" with the animal sacrifices.

I see no actual case for the 10 commandments remaining. Please name a post where you believe you have made such a case and we can go over it.

guevaraj said:
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ (Matthew 7:21-23 NLT)

Yet again, you post a text from the NLT, a translation that is not known for its accuracy - from Wikipedia:

It has been suggested that this "thought-for-thought" methodology, while making the translation easier to understand, is less accurate than a literal (formal equivalence) method, and thus the New Living Translation may not be suitable for those wishing to undertake detailed study of the Bible.

Once more, the significant majority of translations "get away from me, you who practice lawlessness" or "get away from me, you who practice iniquity". The NLT, by contrast is one of a small minority of translations that imply that Jesus is referring to the Law of Moses in particular.

guevaraj · Apr 1, 2023

expos4ever said:
What, exactly, are you saying here? Paul is clear: the Sabbath is a shadow of what is to come. And the "what is to come" is Jesus. Once Jesus is here, the shadows depart - that is the "shadow of things to come" metaphor actually works.

Brother, Jesus through Paul has corrected the oldest human tradition in Judaism since Joshua. Those with Joshua who "first heard" the "good news" of how to enter the Sabbath and were not allowed to enter by oath for 40 years in the desert near the Promised Land, did not enter the "day" of rest during those 40 years, which Joshua later entered at an earlier time than the Seventh day in the Promised Land, but Joshua wrongly assumed this earlier time was the seventh day. In the following passage, another "day" refers to a different day than the one thought for the Sabbath since Joshua: not the seventh day of the week everywhere, but the seventh day of the first week of creation remembered in that time zone that falls in the Promised Land before the seventh day of the week. Judaism is wrong to think, since Joshua, that a day of the week is from evening to evening, as the sabbath falls in the Promised Land, when a day of the week is from morning to morning, as shown with Manna in the desert not allowing them to enter the Sabbath by keeping the seventh day for 40 years in the desert near the Promised Land.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)

expos4ever said:
I see no actual case for the 10 commandments remaining. Please name a post where you believe you have made such a case and we can go over it.

Giving "everything I have to the poor" is not an act of love in the following passage. All the commandments tell us how to love, disqualifying it as the "one thing you haven't done", when Jesus' answer was "the commandments". The "one thing you haven't done" is the newly known additional Eleventh Commandment of the new covenant: where to do "just as I have" is to follow Jesus' example, which was not possible before Jesus.

If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3 NLT)

Giving "everything I have to the poor" above is not an act of love for it to qualify as the additional new Eleventh Commandment in the passage below, where the known new Eleventh Commandment is to "follow" the example of Jesus.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)

The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".

As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once. Dear children, I will be with you only a little longer. And as I told the Jewish leaders, you will search for me, but you can’t come where I am going. So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:31-35 NLT)

expos4ever said:
Yet again, you post a text from the NLT, a translation that is not known for its accuracy - from Wikipedia: It has been suggested that this "thought-for-thought" methodology, while making the translation easier to understand, is less accurate than a literal (formal equivalence) method, and thus the New Living Translation may not be suitable for those wishing to undertake detailed study of the Bible. Once more, the significant majority of translations "get away from me, you who practice lawlessness" or "get away from me, you who practice iniquity". The NLT, by contrast is one of a small minority of translations that imply that Jesus is referring to the Law of Moses in particular.

The reason I like the NLT is because it is a fresh modern translation of the original languages that did not rely on former translations when so many other translations copy each other and have not put forth the complete effort found in this translation. Here is a common mistranslated passage copied widely from KJV, which they correct. Notice that their translation does not assume that those who have accepted Jesus have already entered the "day" of rest as the KJV mistranslated the "good news" of entering the Sabbath as the "gospel" of Jesus, because the KJV wrongly identified Joshua before David as Jesus, which was later corrected in the NKJV but not its effect on the rest of the passage.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

expos4ever · Apr 2, 2023

guevaraj said:
We know that the law is good when used correctly. For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God. (1 Timothy 1:8-11 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I am not at all sure how this text helps your position. The writer clearly tells us who the law is for, and it is certainly not the believer! Are actual believers murderers? Sexually immorral? Rebellious? I would certainly hope not.

Did Jesus give us an Eleventh Commandment?

How do you see Jesus' new commandment?

An additional commandment brings the total commandments to eleven in the new covenant.

A replacement of the ten previous commandments where we no longer have to keep the Sabbath.

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