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Disclaimer: I realize this has likely been discussed before on this forum. It does not seem to be a current topic though, so a new discussion here can be beneficial to those who are new to the forum, or to those unlikely to dig through past threads and innumerable posts to see where the discussion went. I myself fall into both of these categories, I am both new to the forum and unlikely to read potentially hundreds of posts under multiple threads. With that said, I suggest we begin the discussion afresh!

What is the official Seventh-day Adventist teaching regarding Christ's Sonship? Did He become the Son of God or has He always been the Son of God? In your response, please cite official Adventist sources such as the Fundamental Beliefs, Ellen G. White writings, accepted Adventist theologian statements, etc. I would also ask that after any official quotes used that the poster would summarize for their readers the Adventist position so as to facilitate dialogue on the issue.

It is my contention that Seventh-day Adventists believe and teach that Christ became the Son of God at some point either before or after the incarnation. If this is the case, then this puts Adventism squarely outside accepted Trinitarian teaching which reads in part, "I believe...in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;" (The Symbol of Faith, i.e. Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, emphasis mine)
 

Ken Rank

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It is my contention that Seventh-day Adventists believe and teach that Christ became the Son of God at some point either before or after the incarnation. If this is the case, then this puts Adventism squarely outside accepted Trinitarian teaching which reads in part, "I believe...in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;" (The Symbol of Faith, i.e. Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, emphasis mine)
That doesn't have to be the case because Yeshua can preexist his birth and still become the Son. Meaning... He can exist as God (however you understand that) and then be made manifest in the flesh as the Son of God (begotten by the Spirit through a woman) which He was not before. This really doesn't do anything to the trinity, it just gets into details that in all likelihood will be argued over but never settled. :)
 
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Ken Rank,

Thanks for the response. Though I am looking for the Adventist response, yours is still appreciated!

I would respectfully disagree with you that the doctrine of the Trinity is not settled. It indeed has been settled for millennia in Christendom. It is only considered unsettled among certain parts of Protestantism that wish to hold to a different understanding of God than that espoused by the Church of the 7 ecumenical councils. Also, this is not simply about His pre-existence, but rather his birth from the Father before all ages. This is part and parcel of trinitarian teaching, and to deny it is to deny the Christian teaching of the Trinity, which I believe Adventists readily do.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Ken Rank,

Thanks for the response. Though I am looking for the Adventist response, yours is still appreciated!

I would respectfully disagree with you that the doctrine of the Trinity is not settled. It indeed has been settled for millennia in Christendom. It is only considered unsettled among certain parts of Protestantism that wish to hold to a different understanding of God than that espoused by the Church of the 7 ecumenical councils. Also, this is not simply about His pre-existence, but rather his birth from the Father before all ages. This is part and parcel of trinitarian teaching, and to deny it is to deny the Christian teaching of the Trinity, which I believe Adventists readily do.

Hello Former Adventist.

I just wanted to welcome you to CF. :)

I can't answer your question from an Adventist point of view, as I am not that familiar with it. What I do frequently see is a great deal of misunderstanding in Christianity in general about what the Creed means, how it came to be, why it isn't "a man-made doctrine we put above Scripture" and so on. It can take a lot of patience to get people to understand, and that's only if they want to understand. Some don't want to or may not be ready.

One thing I will caution you about, since you are new. These faith group forums are an appropriate place to ask WHAT a faith group believes, but none of us can use them to debate, argue, or teach against the group whose home it is.

You can ask here to understand better, and then debate in another area, such as General Theology ( General Theology ), though you may well step into a variety of positions there.

By the way, I invite you to drop by The Ancient Way ( The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox ), which is the Eastern Orthodox area here.

As a point of interest, we actually HAVE a debate forum called St. Justin Martyr's ( St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr ), where we invite anyone of any faith group (or no faith) to come and ask questions, discuss, debate with EO teaching. You could always invite interested persons from your thread here to go there, even though it's a bit backward to the intent. It would be within CF rules though. :)

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'm happy to try an help. Again, welcome!

Blessed Fast, and God be with you!



(And sorry for the clumsy linking format - my tablet is acting up today.)
 
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Hi Anastasia,

Thank you for the welcome, invite, and information, it's appreciated! As my name suggests I'm a former SDA, so my only intention here was to debate the various beliefs of Adventists in an attempt to honestly demonstrate the difference between what the Adventist denomination teaches versus what Christianity has always taught. I wasn't aware that this is an inappropriate place to do that. Does this rule apply only to the creation of debate threads like the one I created here, or does it apply to responses on other threads I didn't create as well? If it's both, then I'd be more than happy to cease my debating here. Just let me know either way.

Again, thank you for your kindness and blessing! May you also have a blessed fast, and may God be with you too☦️:)

Forgive me☦️
 
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Ken Rank

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Ken Rank,

Thanks for the response. Though I am looking for the Adventist response, yours is still appreciated!

I would respectfully disagree with you that the doctrine of the Trinity is not settled. It indeed has been settled for millennia in Christendom. It is only considered unsettled among certain parts of Protestantism that wish to hold to a different understanding of God than that espoused by the Church of the 7 ecumenical councils. Also, this is not simply about His pre-existence, but rather his birth from the Father before all ages. This is part and parcel of trinitarian teaching, and to deny it is to deny the Christian teaching of the Trinity, which I believe Adventists readily do.
Settled in the form of a decree the people can stand on and repeat, I don't debate that. But if you get 100 Christians (in any form) alone and ask them to explain it, I don't think it will quite be as unifying of an experience as you currently believe. I have studied this topic probably more than any other over the years, and I can tell you this much... we have a 2000 page book, and that is it. Most of that book is dealing with history and instruction on how to live. Very little, VERY LITTLE, is dealing the "being" or the "make-up" of God. His character can be well understood... when we see the commandments we know that things He allows are in harmony with His character and things He does not allow stand opposed to His character. But the substance of a spiritual being is not talked about in depth AND it is being read by a people born and raised in a fleshly container and in a fallen state. To think that ANYONE alive today can even adequately explain the Creation in detail, let alone the One who Created the thing that nobody can adequately explain, is just not a solid conclusion... to say it nicely. :)

I look forward to how the Adventists answer this and will not derail the thread. Blessings to you.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hi Anastasia,

Thank you for the welcome, invite, and information, it's appreciated! As my name suggests I'm a former SDA, so my only intention here was to debate the various beliefs of Adventists in an attempt to honestly demonstrate the difference between what the Adventist denomination teaches versus what Christianity has always taught. I wasn't aware that this is an inappropriate place to do that. Does this rule apply only to the creation of debate threads like the one I created here, or does it apply to responses on other threads I didn't create as well? If it's both, then I'd be more than happy to cease my debating here. Just let me know either way.

Again, thank you for your kindness and blessing! May you also have a blessed fast, and may God be with you too☦️:)

Forgive me☦️

I'm afraid it applies to all threads in a congregational forum's own area, no matter who starts them. And not just SDA's of course, but any group's forum.

Debate is allowed, just in different areas. I'm happy to help, if I can.

:)
 
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~Anastasia~

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I would suggest General Theology for what you want to do ... I think that would be the most appropriate area.

Just be aware Christians of all kinds may come in and argue various points. If you want to limit the topic or responses, explain your guidelines in the first post, then we can try to prevent off-topic posts.
 
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Ken Rank,

Based upon Anastasia's response to me above, this will be my last comment to you on this thread.

I take exception to your comment "we have a 2000 page book, and that is it" (emphasis mine). With all due respect, that is not it. The fact of the matter is that Jesus Christ did not leave a book with His apostles. The thing that Christ did leave us with was His Church. And He said that the Holy Spirit would guide her into all truth (John 16:13). St. Paul says as much when he called her the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). Christ did not leave us rudderless, adrift on an open sea blown about by every wind of doctrine. On the contrary, He left us the life of the Holy Spirit in His body the Church. And while you may disagree with the Church's understanding of that "2000 page book", that's certainly your choice. It doesn't, however, invalidate the truth that Christ's Church has taught from the beginning.

Forgive me, and may God bless you always☦️
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thank you Anastasia for the response. I'll respect the rules of the forum.

You're welcome.

By the way, I don't want to make you feel unwelcome at CF. You CAN have these discussions, they just need to take place in another forum area.

And please feel free to visit us in TAW, the EO forum on CF. :)
The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox
 
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Hi Anastasia,

Thanks again for the invite! I checked out the Ancient Way forum and thought it was real nice. I thought it was so funny, one person has a thread that says something like "When thinking about Lent I thought about this" with a link to a video of peanut butter jelly time, lol! It was real funny, especially since my wife made a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that morning for lunch, lol! I told her about it and she thought it was hilarious.

Anyways, thanks again for the invite. If I do post over there it'll be under a different screen name. I chose Former Adventist for this forum to let everyone know where I was coming from. It wouldn't be needed there, or anywhere else really. It would probably require me to make another account, I don't know. Again, thanks for your kindness, it is appreciated! :)

Forgive me
God forgives☦️
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hi Anastasia,

Thanks again for the invite! I checked out the Ancient Way forum and thought it was real nice. I thought it was so funny, one person has a thread that says something like "When thinking about Lent I thought about this" with a link to a video of peanut butter jelly time, lol! It was real funny, especially since my wife made a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that morning for lunch, lol! I told her about it and she thought it was hilarious.

Anyways, thanks again for the invite. If I do post over there it'll be under a different screen name. I chose Former Adventist for this forum to let everyone know where I was coming from. It wouldn't be needed there, or anywhere else really. It would probably require me to make another account, I don't know. Again, thanks for your kindness, it is appreciated! :)

Forgive me
God forgives☦️
You can ask in Member Services and they will change your name to whatever you like. :) Hope to see you around.

(And you can still have the debates you wish to have in General Theology, for example, if you wish to keep this name and do that.)

Blessed Fast to you. :)
 
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Hi FA,

The SDA pioneers did not accept the Trinitarian teaching. Their position held until about 10 years after the Ellen White's death in 1915. The Trinitarian language subsequently appeared in the official SDA beliefs in the 1930s.

This is current official SDA belief on this: Son :: The Official Site of the Seventh-day Adventist world church

Our pioneers' position on this:

The way spiritualizers have disposed of or denied the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ is first using the old unscriptural Trinitarian creed, viz, that Jesus Christ is the eternal God, though they have not one passage to support it, while we have plain scripture testimony in abundance that he is the Son of the eternal God.” James White, the Day Star, January 24, 1846.

“To assert that the sayings of the Son and his apostles are the commandments of the Father, is as wide from the truth as the old trinitarian absurdity that Jesus Christ is the very and eternal God.” Review & Herald. Aug 5. 1852 p52. James White.

The doctrine of the Trinity was established in the church by the council of Nice AD325. This doctrine destroys the personality of God, and His Son Jesus Christ our Lord. The infamous measures by which it was forced upon the church which appear upon the pages of ecclesiastical history might well cause every believer in that doctrine to blush.” Review & Herald. Mar 6. 1855. J N Andrews.

“And as to the Son of God… He had God for His Father, and did, at some point in the eternity of the past, have beginning of days.” Review & Herald. Sept 7. 1869. J N Andrews.

The Father is the greatest in that He is first. The Son is next in authority because He has been given all things”. Review & Herald. Jan 4. 1881. James White.

The Scriptures nowhere speak of Christ as a created being, but on the contrary plainly state that He was begotten of the FatherBut while as the Son He does not possess a co-eternity of past existence with the Father, the beginning of His existence, as the begotten of the Father, antedates the entire work of creation, in relation to which He stands as joint Creator with God.” Thoughts on the Book of Daniel and the Revelation p430. 1882 Uriah Smith.

We may believe that Christ came into existence in a manner different from that in which other beings first appeared; that He sprang from the Father’s being in a way not necessary for us to understand.” The Captain of our Salvation. p17. 1886 C W Stone.

The Scriptures declare that Christ is “the only begotten Son of God”. He is begotten, not created. As to when He was begotten, it is not for us to inquire, nor could our minds grasp it if we were told… There was a time when Christ proceeded forth and came from God, from the bosom of the Father, but that time was so far back in the days of eternity that to finite comprehension, it is practically without beginning.” Christ and His Righteousness. p9. 1890. E J Waggoner.

The angels are the sons of God, as was Adam, by creation; Christians are the sons of God by adoption (Rom 8:14, 15), but Christ is the Son of God by birth…and so Christ is the express image of the Father’s person.” ibid, p12, 1890, E J Waggoner.

Ellen White agreed with our pioneers:

God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son.” Ellen White, Testimonies Vol 8, p268.

God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, -- not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father’s person…” Ellen White, Signs of the Times, May 30, 1895.
 
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Dave-W

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The doctrine of the Trinity was established in the church by the council of Nice AD325. This doctrine destroys the personality of God, and His Son Jesus Christ our Lord. The infamous measures by which it was forced upon the church which appear upon the pages of ecclesiastical history might well cause every believer in that doctrine to blush.” Review & Herald. Mar 6. 1855. J N Andrews.
INteresting. The concept of the One God but Three Persons was around a long time before the First Nicean Council. Unfortunately, we Messianic Jews were NOT invited to the table; having been declared defacto heretics for still living a Jewish lifestyle, even though it was acknowledged our doctrine was essentially "orthodox."

As a result, the wording came out as something abhorrent to Jews, whether messianic or traditional. And both the Lord and Paul said the gospel was to go "to the Jew first."

Good luck with that by describing the God of the christians to look like part of a polytheistic pagan religion.
 
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Dave-W

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don't think 'we Messianic Jews' existed back in 325AD.
We were called "The Sect of the Nazorean" back then and historian/priest Eusubius writing about 300 ad called us "orthodox in beliefs but heretics in practice." He lumped us in with another group called Ebionites (who denied Jesus was divine - true heretics) and as a result we were not at the 325 Nicean council.

The Messianic Jews we know today didn't come about until after Vatican II.
Vatican II - mid 1960s.

The modern Messianic movement was started by 3 rabbis from eastern Europe in the late 1800s:

Orthodox Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein of Romania - 1880s
Chassidic Rabbi Joseph Rabinowitz of Moscow - 1880s
Orthodox Rabbi Leopold Cohn - New York - 1890s. (emigrated from Hungary)

Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein, 'I love Yeshua my Messiah' (1824-1909) - Jewish Testimonies
https://jewsforjesus.org/publicatio...ic-movement-the-herzl-of-jewish-christianity/
Testimony of Rabbi Leopold Cohn
 
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Disclaimer: I realize this has likely been discussed before on this forum. It does not seem to be a current topic though, so a new discussion here can be beneficial to those who are new to the forum, or to those unlikely to dig through past threads and innumerable posts to see where the discussion went. I myself fall into both of these categories, I am both new to the forum and unlikely to read potentially hundreds of posts under multiple threads. With that said, I suggest we begin the discussion afresh!

What is the official Seventh-day Adventist teaching regarding Christ's Sonship? Did He become the Son of God or has He always been the Son of God? In your response, please cite official Adventist sources such as the Fundamental Beliefs, Ellen G. White writings, accepted Adventist theologian statements, etc. I would also ask that after any official quotes used that the poster would summarize for their readers the Adventist position so as to facilitate dialogue on the issue.

It is my contention that Seventh-day Adventists believe and teach that Christ became the Son of God at some point either before or after the incarnation. If this is the case, then this puts Adventism squarely outside accepted Trinitarian teaching which reads in part, "I believe...in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;" (The Symbol of Faith, i.e. Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, emphasis mine)

The Sonship by incarnation view, held by the late Walter Martin, and until the mid-1990s by John McArthur taught that the logos (word) is eternal as the logos / word, but that he then became the Son only at the incarnation. Is this the SDA view which you are discussing here or have I misunderstood you?
 
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The Sonship by incarnation view, held by the late Walter Martin, and until the mid-1990s by John McArthur taught that the logos (word) is eternal as the logos / word, but that he then became the Son only at the incarnation.
The author of Hebrews says He was the Son before creation:

Heb 1.1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Other scriptures agree with this:

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come...

Colossians 1:16 For by Him [Son] all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible,...
 
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The author of Hebrews says He was the Son before creation:

Heb 1.1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Other scriptures agree with this:

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come...

Colossians 1:16 For by Him [Son] all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible,...

Obviously I am in complete agreement with you that the Son, existed as the Son, from before his incarnation. However, those holding to the Sonship by incarnation view, would claim that John 1:3 actually confirms their own position, for the text at John 1:1 states logos / word, it does not mention the word Son whom if I recall is first mentioned later. As for Hebrews 1:1 and Colossians 1:16, those holding to this erroneous view would claim that he who is now the Son, was actually the logos when he was active in the act of creation. Personally, I find 1st Corinthians 8:6, a much tighter verse than Hebrews 1:2, to confirm that the Son created as the Son.
 
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