Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[timothyu]

Now, in the NT..........the born again are this.....>"The temple of the Holy Spirit".

An interesting perspective on temple

 

[Chaleb]

An interesting perspective on temple

I posted 2 new Threads today.
If you have time, take a look, as they go into a lot of detail regarding the Walk of Faith, Sanctification, and The Helmet of Salvation.

 

[sawdust]

IN the OT you had this..

"the word of the Lord came to me".

There was a spiritual anointion that was manifested like that.

Yes, but based on what you have said before they were not born again and therefore had no capacity to understand the word that came to them. It's no different today when you speak of the things of the Spirit to unbelievers and they get that "glassy look" in their eye and you know they cannot comprehend a word you say. Plus, that spiritual anointing was given to the prophets and kings, what of your "everyday" believer? They didn't have an anointing for Jesus said they could have asked for the Spirit to be given. Luke 11:13

Jesus said you had to be born again in order to overcome that disability (inability to perceive spiritual matters) and He expected a believer who was a teacher of the Law to know that.

I find your explanation failing at too many levels.

 

[timothyu]

Born again ..stop thinking worldly and start thinking the counter-culture of the Kingdom.

 

[Chaleb]

Yes, but based on what you have said before they were not born again

They were not born again.

The "comforter" was not yet Given at Pentecost, because Jesus had not yet died on the Cross.

Have you studied what happened to the Old Testament saints who were those you are thinking about?

1.) "Abraham's Bosom"?........This is usually studied out as "Today you will be with me in= 2.) Paradise".. Jesus said on the Cross to the Thief who believed.

Study those 2......and you'll have your answer, sawdust.

Get in there. !

2 Timothy 2:15

 

[sawdust]

They were not born again.

The "comforter" was not yet Given at Pentecost, because Jesus had not yet died on the Cross.

Have you studied what happened to the Old Testament saints who were those you are thinking about?

1.) "Abraham's Bosom"?........This is usually studied out as "Today you will be with me in= 2.) Paradise".. Jesus said on the Cross to the Thief who believed.

Study those 2......and you'll have your answer, sawdust.

Get in there. !

2 Timothy 2:15

You don't seem to understand if you are not born again you cannot see/perceive/understand/comprehend the Kingdom which is spiritual nor can you enter the Kingdom. When it comes to spiritual matters, you are dead in the water as they say.

Yet, you want us to believe the prophets who spoke of God's will, Moses who gave God's Law, not to mention any believer between the Fall and the Cross who lived their lives in accordance with whatever grace was given at the time, were all in a state of separation from God ie not born again, not in union with God's Spirit.

I think it is you who needs to study and come to learn that the new birth and union with Christ are two distinct matters. You've thrown them in together and come with with a mish mash of ideas that don't sit together well.

Have a nice day.

 

[timothyu]

Many people assume born again means they can carry on in their old self serving ways but they re now forgiven for disobeying God's will rather than condemned. Lord, lords who have not severed their willing connection with the ways of man.

 

[Chaleb]

You don't seem to understand if you are not born again you cannot see/perceive/understand/comprehend the Kingdom

What you are trying to prove is......

"He that is spiritual judgeth all things"....... and "the word of God is spiritually discerned".

So, in the case of the New Covenant, the born again have Jesus in them, who is "all treasures of wisdom and knowledge", and in the case of the OT, you have an anointing for service that created Prophets for example., who would say...."The word of the Lord came to me".
That's different.

So, as i told you, go and Study........ "this day you shall be with me in Paradise".........as that is not Heaven, and study "Abraham's Bosom" and find out who was in there.

You'll find your answer, sawdust, if you will actually study these 2.

 

[sawdust]

What you are trying to prove is......

"He that is spiritual judgeth all things"....... and "the word of God is spiritually discerned".

So, in the case of the New Covenant, the born again have Jesus in them, who is "all treasures of wisdom and knowledge", and in the case of the OT, you have an anointing for service that created Prophets for example., who would say...."The word of the Lord came to me".
That's different.

So, as i told you, go and Study........ "this day you shall be with me in Paradise".........as that is not Heaven, and study "Abraham's Bosom" and find out who was in there.

You'll find your answer, sawdust, if you will actually study these 2.

Jesus didn't say you have to have an anointing to comprehend. He didn't say you have to be in union with Him. He didn't say you have to have eternal life. It goes without saying all truth is ministered by the Holy Spirit, but if we want to go from spiritual death, separated from God with zero capacity to relate to Him, to being spiritually alive, connected to God and having the capacity to relate, then we need to be born again. And what does the Spirit give birth to? Eternal life? Union with Christ? Spiritual Life? No, none of these things. Spirit begets spirit.

Just as you need a heart to circulate blood, you need a spirit to comprehend spiritual matters like the things you noted above. Everything the Spirit brings us would go to absolute waste if we are not born again. Christ in us and us in Him? Would be nonsense! The word that came to the OT Prophets? Would be nonsense! Until one is born from above, we do not have the capacity for eternal life or union with Christ or a spiritual life.

I know who was in Abraham's Bosom but you don't seem to see the inconsistency between the OT believers who are saved yet according to you are still separated from God (spiritually dead) because they are not born again.

Nor do you see the inconsistency that Jesus was speaking to a Jew under the Law and expected Him to comprehend what the new birth was, while you insist the new birth is union with Christ which is something never taught in the OT.

Have a nice day.

 

[timothyu]

Rebirth is understanding who you are... and it is not this concoction of flesh and bones any more than you are that mess of plastic and metal you get around in on the driveway.

 

[coffee4u]

I think there is a lot of word semantics going on here.

God dealt differently with people over time, but even so salvation has always been by faith and grace.
Galatians 3:11 says, “Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’”

Romans 4:3 We are told that “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Romans 4
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Galatians 3:8–9
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” ​

The way of salvation has always been through faith. In the Old Testament, it was through faith in a promise. The promise that God would send a Savior. They looked forward to the Messiah and believed God’s promise. Today we look back on the life, death, and resurrection of the Savior and are saved by faith in Jesus Christ’s atonement for our sins.

 

[Chaleb]

Jesus didn't say you have to have an anointing to comprehend.

Neither did i.

So, if possible, actually read what i post, as then what you post bsck might be connected to what i wrote.

 

[RevealedTruths]

Rebirth is understanding who you are... and it is not this concoction of flesh and bones any more than you are that mess of plastic and metal you get around in on the driveway.

This is gnosticism.

 

[sawdust]

and in the case of the OT, you have an anointing for service that created Prophets for example

Neither did i.

So, if possible, actually read what i post, as then what you post bsck might be connected to what i wrote.

The first quote is what you said in relation to my statement that you cannot comprehend bible doctrine apart from being born again. If that is not saying they had an anointing which made them comprehend? I don't know what it's saying.

And now you say that the anointing is not what made them able to understand? Do you even know what you're saying?

 

[Chaleb]

The first quote is what you said in relation to my statement that you cannot comprehend bible doctrine apart from being born again. If that is not saying they had an anointing which made them comprehend? I don't know what it's saying.

And now you say that the anointing is not what made them able to understand? Do you even know what you're saying?

You are now combining 2 different posts, Sawdust. 2 Different ideas.

Listen, in the OT< the Prophets for example, would say..>"the word of the Lord came to me". or "upon me".
That is a prophetic anointing.
They "saw" revelation......God showed them His own Foreknowledge = regarding "prophecy" they spoke that is written down that we can read.

In the NT, that is the Blood of Jesus, as the New Testament, God, Christ, the Holy Spirit comes to live in the born again person, who has become "the Temple of the Holy Spirit".
That is '"Spiritual Union with God". that is the "new Creation in Christ"
The NT teaches that "Christ IS THAT Spirit"., and "God is A Spirit".

So, when you are "in Christ"...being born again by the Spirit of God, INTO the Spirit of God....having become "ONE with God", "in Christ", then "Christ in you the hope of Glory" is how we receive discernment and revelation.

Jesus is "all the Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge" and Christ is IN the born again.

Paul teaches that the "eyes of your understanding" are opened.. "enlightened"........and that is Spiritual Discernment that comes from being "in Christ".... born again.

 

[sawdust]

You are now combining 2 different posts, Sawdust. 2 Different ideas.

Listen, in the OT< the Prophets for example, would say..>"the word of the Lord came to me". or "upon me".
That is a prophetic anointing.
They "saw" revelation......God showed them His own Foreknowledge = regarding "prophecy" they spoke that is written down that we can read.

??????

What two different ideas? You are repeating the same message here as I quoted of you before in that you are saying that the anointing of God is what gave the OT prophets the ability to understand spiritual matters.

When I said "Jesus never said you need an anointing" to understand spiritual matters you replied you never said that. Yet here you are repeating it yet again. How else am I to understand what you are saying regarding OT Prophets? If it wasn't this anointing that gave them understanding then what was it?

Plus you ignore all the believers who were not called to be prophets and didn't have an anointing. How were they meant to comprehend spiritual matters? The Law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) It was given to teach spiritual truths.

The problem is you conflate "being born from above" with "being in union with Christ". They are two different things. No OT believer was ever promised to be in union with Christ, the Messiah. There is no OT teaching regarding the Church, it was a mystery to OT prophets (Romans 16:25) Yet Jesus had every expectation that Nicodemus, a Jew under the Law, to understand what the new birth was. If the new birth is indeed union with Christ as you would have us believe, then Nicodemus had every right to be in the dark about the new birth and Jesus should not have been surprised Nicodemus didn't know what Jesus was talking about.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Maybe you need to practice what you have asked of me and do some thinking and listening.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This issue was raised in another thread that I didn't get a chance to respond to as I went on holidays and it was off topic so thought I would deal with it here and see what you all have to say for yourselves.
I say he didn't as eternal life is imputed to our spirit and if Adam had eternal life he could not have died spiritually. It's also the reason we don't die even though we sin. You can't perish (spiritually) and have eternal life at the same time.

John 3:15
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

What say you?

Adam & Eve had access to the tree of life in the garden of Eden. They were permitted to eat from it until the fall. That’s precisely why God removed them from the garden of Eden and placed cherubim and the flaming sword to guard the garden so that man could not enter again.

“Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3‬:‭22‬-‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Furthermore death had not entered into the world until the fall. It was the fall that brought death upon man. So I would say that Adam did have eternal life before the fall then it was revoked.

 

[sawdust]

Adam & Eve had access to the tree of life in the garden of Eden. They were permitted to eat from it until the fall. That’s precisely why God removed them from the garden of Eden and placed cherubim and the flaming sword to guard the garden so that man could not enter again.

“Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3‬:‭22‬-‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Are you equating eternal life with the tree of life?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam is an example of losing enternal life by choosing to sin
If he had not sinned he would not have been blocked from the tree of life which ensures eternal life and therefor would not have died

I’m not sure that Adam & Eve would’ve needed the tree of life to have eternal life because death had not entered into the world until the fall. Death was a result of the fall.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are you equating eternal life with the tree of life?

No I don’t think they needed the tree of life because the punishment of death had not been placed upon man until after the fall.