Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[sawdust]

Adam is not an "Old Testament Saint'.

There was no "Christ" in the Garden of Eden.

There was no "Cross of Christ" in the Garden of Eden.


Adam walked with God, and Adam was made in God's image. God "Breathed" into Adam, and Adam was made alive by this Spirit of God.
Adam had "Spiritual union" with God that he lost when he rebelled.

When a person is born again, they regain this "Spiritual Union' with God... "One with God'....'In Christ".

If you read John 20:22, you'll find Jesus , after his resurrection, does the same with the 11 Apostles.

Are you saying the disciples were spiritually dead until Christ breathed on them in John 20:22? So was no-one spiritually alive after the fall and before Christ's resurrection? If that is what you are saying, how could anyone, like the prophets, possibly discern spiritual matters? (1Cor.2:14)

And last I looked Adam was in the OT and a believer, that makes him a saint. And it was the Son in the Garden of Eden.

Being in union with Christ (which could not happen until after the Cross) and being spiritually alive are not the same thing.

 

[sawdust]

Resurrection is being born again if you want to get technical and it truly is of the spirit, not of flesh

It is the body that is resurrected, not the spirit or soul.

 

[timothyu]

Matthew 22: 30

 

[sawdust]

Matthew 22: 30

That just tells us what it will be like in the resurrection in respect to relationships. Doesn't tell us what is resurrected.

 

[timothyu]

Gives a pretty good hint that flesh is low on the list

 

[Chaleb]

Are you saying the disciples were spiritually dead until Christ breathed on them

To not be "spiritually dead", you have to be born again.
You can't be born again until Christ has died for your sin on the Cross.

And regarding the 11.
Paul teaches that "if you have not the spirit of God, (in you) and you "in Christ", then you dont belong to God".

Did you notice that Jesus didnt tell Peter to go to the Pentecost feast to be born again?
He told him to go there to receive Power for the ministry.
Notice that Peter and those in the upper room were not water baptized, yet they manifested at least one of the 9 Spiritual gifts.

 

[sawdust]

To not be "spiritually dead", you have to be born again.
You can't be born again until Christ has died for your sin on the Cross.

And regarding the 11.
Paul teaches that "if you have not the spirit of God, (in you) and you "in Christ", then you dont belong to God".

Did you notice that Jesus didnt tell Peter to go to the Pentecost feast to be born again?
He told him to go there to receive Power for the ministry.
Notice that Peter and those in the upper room were not water baptized, yet they manifested at least one of the 9 Spiritual gifts.

I asked .. "Are you saying the disciples were spiritually dead until Christ breathed on them?"

I thought it was a simple yes or no answer. Now you have made it even more confusing.

Did Moses belong to God? Was he "in Christ"?

 

[Chaleb]

I asked .. "Are you saying the disciples were spiritually dead until Christ breathed on them?"

I thought it was a simple yes or no answer. Now you have made it even more confusing.

Did Moses belong to God? Was he "in Christ"?

Moses was not in Christ, as there was no Cross of Christ in the OT.

See, the Cross of Christ, allows God (through our Faith).... to use the Holy Spirit to birth us back into Himself, as 'God is A Spirit".

Adam the 1st, lost spiritual union with God.
Christ, who is the 2nd Adam, through His Cross, allows us by faith to be redeemed...or "purchased with the Blood and death of Jesus", BACK into spiritual union with God.
This is to become ....Born again....as a "new Creation" in Christ.

The "new Creation" is the born again SPIRIT that is now again in spiritual union with God.
This is not your body or your mind.., as your body is "dead because of sin" and your mind has to be "renewed".
What is left ????
its the Born Again Spirit, that is "in Christ"....."made righteous".... "One with God". the "Son/Daughter" of God.

 

[sawdust]

Moses was not in Christ, as there was no Cross of Christ in the OT.

See, the Cross of Christ, allows God (through our Faith).... to use the Holy Spirit to birth us back into Himself, as 'God is A Spirit".

Adam the 1st, lost spiritual union with God.
Christ, who is the 2nd Adam, through His Cross, allows us by faith to be redeemed...or "purchased with the Blood and death of Jesus", BACK into spiritual union with God.
This is to become ....Born again....as a "new Creation" in Christ.

The "new Creation" is the born again SPIRIT that is now again in spiritual union with God.
This is not your body or your mind.., as your body is "dead because of sin" and your mind has to be "renewed".
What is left ????
its the Born Again Spirit, that is "in Christ"....."made righteous".... "One with God". the "Son/Daughter" of God.

So if Moses didn't belong to God because he wasn't in Christ and therefore not born again, how was he saved? (and we know he was saved because of the Mount of Transfiguration Matt.17:1-3) Jesus said you can't enter the Kingdom of God unless you're born from above. John 3:5 How could Moses teach the things of God if he couldn't perceive (understand) spiritual matters? John 3:3

And the spirit isn't born "again" as in born a second time. The word is "anothen" which literally means "upward place" which is why it is sometimes translated born from above. The new birth has to do with the place of origin, not the numerical order in time. ie. first time, second time etc.

And could you please answer the actual questions I ask rather than simply repeat what you have already said. What you are saying doesn't make any sense which is why I'm asking the questions in the first place.

 

[Chaleb]

So if Moses didn't belong to God because he wasn't in Christ

There is no "in Christ" when Jesus has not come down from heaven yet.

So, when Moses was given the Law, Jesus The Christ is "pre-incarnate".
He has not come yet........there is no "JESUS" yet.
There is no CROSS Yet, and that is why Moses is giving the Law.

To be "in Christ".....there has to be a CHRIST on the Cross.

This isn't that difficult to understand, sawdust.

C'mon.

Think.<. You dont have to be a trained bible scholar and a seminary Graduate to understand it.

 

[sawdust]

There is no "in Christ" when Jesus has not come down from heaven yet.

So, when Moses was given the Law, Jesus The Christ is "pre-incarnate".
He has not come yet........there is no "JESUS" yet.
There is no CROSS Yet, and that is why Moses is giving the Law.

To be "in Christ".....there has to be a CHRIST on the Cross.

This isn't that difficult to understand, sawdust.

C'mon.

Think.<. You dont have to be a trained bible scholar and a seminary Graduate to understand it.

I am thinking mate which is why I'm bemused by your answers. This thread isn't about being Christian, it's about whether Adam had eternal life because some seem to think that being born from above means being given eternal life because that is what they think Adam lost.

You seem to think it's about being placed in union with Christ which is obvious Adam didn't have for as you say, no Jesus, no Cross.

Yet Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, a Jew and was surprised he didn't understand what Jesus was talking about. Jesus wasn't teaching a Jew Church age doctrine for if He was, He should not be surprised Nicodemus didn't understand for the Church was a mystery and unheard of in OT scriptures.

So whatever one might think being "born again" might be? It must be something applicable to those who lived before the Cross as much as after.

C'mon, your turn to "think".

 

[Chaleb]

I am thinking mate which is why I'm bemused by your answers. This thread isn't about being Christian,

Whatever you and i have been discussing was based on what you wrote.
I just addressed it as you posted it to me, "mate".

Also, God's Spirit is eternal, and Adam had it.
His body died, as will yours, but, our spirit, including Adam's, never dies.

 

[sawdust]

Whatever you and i have been discussing was based on what you wrote.

But you haven't once given a direct answer to my questions regarding any of those in the OT. If the new birth is to have God's Spirit which means to be in union with Christ and cannot happen until after the Cross, then how could anyone in the the OT understand spiritual matters (1Cor.2:14) without being born again? And why would Jesus expect Nicodemus to comprehend a Church age doctrine of "union with Christ" when there is no such teaching in the OT?

You want me to believe what you say is true but if what you say is true then explain how the OT believers could be connected with God without His Spirit?

 

[Chaleb]

But you haven't once given a direct answer to my questions regarding any of those in the OT. If the new birth is to have God's Spirit which means to be in union with Christ and cannot happen until after the Cross, then how could anyone in the the OT understand spiritual matters (1Cor.2:14)

IN the OT you had this..

"the word of the Lord came to me".

There was a spiritual anointion that was manifested like that.

 

[timothyu]

The only new thing Jesus brought was the Gospel of the Kingdom. Resurrection. All else existed previously.

 

[Chaleb]

The only new thing Jesus brought was the Gospel of the Kingdom. Resurrection. All else existed previously.

The Holy Spirit given to the 11 Apostles in John 20:22

You left that one out timothyu.

And the "comforter" given at Pentecost...... You left that one out timothyu.

There are more, but as i know you are not actually paying attention and just want to argue.......i'll let you have that one for yourself.

 

[timothyu]

There are more, but as i know you are not actually paying attention and just want to argue.....

Really? So you say the HS was inactive prior to Jesus?

 

[Chaleb]

Really? So you say the HS was inactive prior to Jesus?

I said that you left those out, when you stated ...

""""""The only new thing Jesus brought was the Gospel of the Kingdom. Resurrection. All else existed previously.""""

 

[timothyu]

I said that you left those out,

The HS `going into people was nothing new. How else do you think the prophets and king makers of old operated?

 

[Chaleb]

The HS `going into people was nothing new. How else do you think the prophets and king makers of old operated?

in the OT....."the word of the Lord came to me".


Now, in the NT..........the born again are this.....>"The temple of the Holy Spirit".