Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[timothyu]

We are in the kingdom of God now, and will translate to heaven.

Impossible. Rev. 21:2

 

[Clare73]

Impossible. Rev. 21:2

Prophecy is given in unclear riddles (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.

Demonstrate my presentation to be incorrect.

 

[Clare73]

I never said they were the same thing and I'm pretty sure I explained this earlier but in case I am remembering incorrectly ... Our spirit is immortal ie. not subject to death because it is born of God the Holy Spirit. If it cannot die, it therefore also cannot decay or be destroyed in any way hence it's immortality guarantees incorruptibility, not subject to decay.

Now, do you really think that which comes from the very nature of God should be placed into a vessel that is corrupted, ie born with a sin nature? Do you think we can be born separated from Him while at the same time having something of Him residing within our body?

The immortal human spirit (breath) was breathed into man by God at man's creation (Ge 2:7) and is his principle of life, it animating the soul which animates the body..

It is the habitat of eternal life by faith at the new birth.

 

[timothyu]

Prophecy is given in unclear riddles

The Lord's Prayer was not prophecy.

 

[sawdust]

I take Lk 3:38 to mean Adam was a son of God.

But you said Adam wasn't the son of God so which is it? Is he or is he not the son of God?

Jn 3:3 is the giving of eternal life in the new birth.

So no actually birthing of spirit, instead being given a gift of God's life. Obviously eternal life can't be born of the Spirit for God is eternal life and can't give birth to Himself. Sort of makes me wonder how Adam could have been spiritually alive seeing as you said he didn't have eternal life but I'm sure you'll work that one out as soon as you figure out whether he was or was not the son of God.

The OT saints were saved by faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16), as was Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3).

Saved from what? Eternal death? You seem to think we need eternal life to be saved from spiritual death.

Jesus did not tell Nicodemus the new birth (spiritually alive) was something he could choose, but that it was a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:7-8).

I love how you twist what I say around to avoid the logical implications. I never said Jesus told Nicodemus he had to "choose" to be born again.

What I actually said before you broke it up into compartments that made what I said unrecognisable was:

We are sons of God because He has caused us to be spiritually alive. We have eternal life because we are in union with Christ. OT saints were never in union with Christ which is why they did not have eternal life but they (believers) were spiritually alive having been born of God just as Jesus told Nicodemus was necessary to perceive and enter God's Kingdom.

In other words Jesus told Nicodemus he had to made spiritually alive in order to perceive and enter the Kindom of God. How is anyone made spiritually alive? By grace through faith. By the Spirit generating a spirit within (born of the Spirit) and taking the psuchikos (soulish/body and soul only) man (1Cor.2:14) and giving him the apparatus needed to discern spiritual realities. Then he becomes spiritually alive and no longer subject to spiritual death ever again, no matter what sin he commits, thanks be to Christ's work on the Cross.

Jesus said the kingdom of God has come (Mt 12:48),
it is not of this world (Jn 18:36),
but of the spiritual world, invisible and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules, and
it is without end (Lk 1:33).

Was I defining the Kingdom in my statement? I was simply repeating what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Would you have responded to Christ the same way you responded above if it was you instead of Nicodemus?

 

[Clare73]

The Lord's Prayer was not prophecy.

Okay. . .but Rev 21:2 is.

 

[Clare73]

But you said Adam wasn't the son of God so which is it? Is he or is he not the son of God?

I can't argue with the fact that Adam is a son of God (Lk 3:38).

So no actually birthing of spirit,

Our human spirit comes with the package of human life, it being the animating principle of human life which animates the soul which animates the body.

instead being given a gift of God's life. Obviously eternal life can't be born of the Spirit for God is eternal life and can't give birth to Himself. Sort of makes me wonder how Adam could have been spiritually alive seeing as you said he didn't have eternal life but I'm sure you'll work that one out as soon as you figure out whether he was or was not the son of God

Seems to me he must have had it.

Saved from what?

The condemnation into which they were born (Ro 5:18), by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3) because of Adam.

Eternal death? You seem to think we need eternal life to be saved from spiritual death.

We are born without God's divine eternal life inhabiting our immortal human spirit, which is spiritual death, but not death of the immortal spirit itself.
Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, but the absence of God's divine eternal life inhabiting the immortal human spirit.

I love how you twist what I say around to avoid the logical implications. I never said Jesus told Nicodemus he had to "choose" to be born again.

Did I say you did?
Should I not include what I see as pertinent facts to the point?

What I actually said before you broke it up into compartments that made what I said unrecognisable was:

I know. . .but it seems to me the parts have to be straightened out before the whole can be put together correctly.

In other words Jesus told Nicodemus he had to made spiritually alive in order to perceive and enter the Kindom of God. How is anyone made spiritually alive? By grace through faith.

One is made "spiritually" alive (the divine eternal life of God inhabiting one's immortal spirit) only by sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, based on nothing but his sovereign will to do so, whose sovereignty is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8)

By the Spirit generating a spirit within (born of the Spirit) and taking the psuchikos (soulish/body and soul only) man (1Cor.2:14) and giving him the apparatus needed to discern spiritual realities. Then he becomes spiritually alive and no longer subject to spiritual death ever again, no matter what sin he commits, thanks be to Christ's work on the Cross.

Faith does nothing of the kind, for faith is the result of the sovereign new birth, not the cause of it.

Was I defining the Kingdom in my statement?

Why do you object to what I see as pertinent facts to the point?

I was simply repeating what Jesus said to Nicodemus.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Would you have responded to Christ the same way you responded above if it was you instead of Nicodemus?

Is this relevant somehow?

Don't see much point in repeating Jesus' words back to himself.

 

[sawdust]

The immortal human spirit (breath) was breathed into man by God at man's creation (Ge 2:7) and is his principle of life, it animating the soul which animates the body..

It is the receptacle of eternal life by faith at the new birth.

It doesn't animate the soul for the soul itself is life (breath) created in Gen1:27 in the image (invisible) and likeness (having the full capacity of being a person) of God. The body God formed in Gen 2:7 also had life in itself, biological life, unless you think God formed a corpse. The spirit is designed to govern the soul as the soul is designed to govern the body. They don't animate one another, each part keeping the other alive. They simply can't remain when one part dies. When the body dies, the soul departs. When (in Adam's case) the body became corrupted and his soul darkened with the serpent's lie, his spirit left.

Yet, in all you said above, none of it deals with the difference between immortality and incorruptibility whcih is what my post was about and you failed to answer the actual questions I asked.

Maybe you should do us both a favour in the future and continue to ignore what I say and simply don't respond.

 

[timothyu]

Okay. . .but Rev 21:2 is.

But they say the same thing.

 

[sawdust]

I can't argue with the fact that Adam is a son of God (Lk 3:38).

Our human spirit comes with the package of human life, it being the animating principle of human life which animates the soul which animates the body.

Seems to me he must have had it.

The condemnation into which they were born (Ro 5:18), by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3) because of Adam.

We are born without God's divine eternal life inhabiting our immortal human spirit, which is spiritual death, but not death of the immortal spirit itself.
Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, but the absence of God's divine eternal life inhabiting the immortal human spirit.

Did I say you did?
Should I not include what I see as pertinent facts to the point?

I know. . .but it seems to me the parts have to be straightened out before the whole can be put together correctly.

One is made "spiritually" alive (the divine eternal life of God inhabiting one's immortal spirit) only by sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, based on nothing but his sovereign will to do so, whose sovereignty is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8)

Faith does nothing of the kind, for faith is the result of the sovereign new birth, not the cause of it.

Why do you object to what I see as pertinent facts to the point?

Is this relevant somehow?

Don't see much point in repeating Jesus' words back to himself.

Have a nice day Clare73.

 

[Clare73]

It doesn't animate the soul for the soul itself is life (breath)

No, the soul is not spirit (pneuma), wind, breath. . .the soul is psuche.
It is extremely difficult to distinguish between the soul and the spirit in the NT, for they are alike both in their nature and in their activities.
In NT usage, they can't really be separated, they can only be distinguished.

created in Gen1:27 in the image (invisible) and likeness (having the full capacity of being a person) of God. The body God formed in Gen 2:7 also had life in itself, biological life, unless you think God formed a corpse. The spirit is designed to govern the soul as the soul is designed to govern the body. They don't animate one another,

Correct, the spirit and soul do not animate each other.
The spirit animates the soul, the soul animates the body

each part keeping the other alive. They simply can't remain when one part dies. When the body dies, the soul departs. When (in Adam's case) the body became corrupted and his soul darkened with the serpent's lie, his spirit left.

Scripture is not clear on the separation of the soul and spirit, but it is clear that the spirit departs the body at death.
1) "The body without the spirit is dead." (Jas 2:26)
2) Paul presents his spirit with Christ at death (Php 1:21-23, 2 Co 5:1-9).

Yet, in all you said above, none of it deals with the difference between immortality and incorruptibility whcih is what my post was about and you failed to answer the actual questions I asked.

I addressed the two meanings of incorruptible, one moral and the other physical, in post #285.
You seem to be using the meaning of moral corruptibility as immorality, rather than its meaning in 1 Co 15 as immortality.

you failed to answer the actual questions I asked.

This is your question:

"Our spirit is immortal ie. not subject to death because it is born of God the Holy Spirit. If it cannot die, it therefore also cannot decay or be destroyed in any way hence it's immortality guarantees incorruptibility, not subject to decay.

Now, do you really think that which comes from the very nature of God should be placed into a vessel that is corrupted, ie born with a sin nature? Do you think we can be born separated from Him while at the same time having something of Him residing within our body?"

Answer: And now I see the problem!
You are applying the NT meaning of "spiritual" to the human "spirit."
The two words are not related.
The immortal human "spirit" is not "spiritual."

In the NT, "spiritual" refers to that which relates to the Holy Spirit.
It has nothing to do with being immaterial, non-physical, or a spirit.
It has to do only with the realm of the Holy Spirit (who is spirit).

The immortal human spirit is not "spiritual;" it is "spirit;" i.e., immaterial, non-physical.

The immortal human spirit is not spiritual; i.e., born of God, it is simply part of the construct of man, who is made of body, soul and spirit.

So your question is based on a wrong assumption.
The immortal human spirit does not come from the very nature of God; i.e., the realm of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, there is no issue with placing man's immortal spirit "into a vessel that is corrupted."

Sorry it took me so long to realize what the problem was.

Maybe you should do us both a favour in the future and continue to ignore what I say and simply don't respond.

You seem like two different people. . .

 

[sawdust]

You seem like two different people. . .

No, that's just the way you make me out to be because you don't hear what I'm saying but only what you think I'm saying.

So please, do me a favour, stop thinking you are correcting me when you are not even understanding what I am saying in the first place.

 

[Clare73]

No, that's just the way you make me out to be because you don't hear what I'm saying but only what you think I'm saying.
So please, do me a favour, stop thinking you are correcting me when you are not even understanding what I am saying in the first place.

I edited my post #311 considerably.

It completely answers your question.

 

[coffee4u]

How do you define spiritual death?

The simplest explanation is separation from God.

Genesis 3
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. (they died spiritually as soon as Adam ate)
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

Adam and Eve changed inwardly from what God had created them to be.

As their descendants we are all separated from God, we are spiritually dead in sin.
Jesus said. Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life (John 5:24).
Our spirit has passed from death to life, but this new life does not affect our physical body. Our physical body still ages, becomes diseased, feels pain and dies.
Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Talks of spiritual death and spiritually alive.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This is the change from spiritually dead to spiritually alive that we have right now.

But we do not yet have the resurrection of the body.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
This in not the spirit being resurrected, for our spirit has already gone from death to life. We have that now.
The resurrection is of the physical body. ​

Death of the body is not done away with until the dead are raised and death itself is tossed into the lake of fire. It is done away with because death is not something good and natural, it is evil. Death is Gods enemy.
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”
The New World will be incorruptible. It is a real place for real people with changed bodies.
We won't be spirits floating around the new world, we will have bodies. New resurrected bodies.

Romans 8:22-24 22
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?
There is spiritual death and there is physical death, there is spiritual life and physical life. The Bible talks of both.
The spiritual comes first and we have that now, the physical is yet to come. As Romans says: Who hopes for what they already have? Since we have spiritual life now, we know this hope that we wait for is not spiritual, it is for the redemption of our bodies, it is physical.

 

[Clare73]

But they say the same thing.

Not in my interpretation of Rev 21:2 according to NT apostolic teaching,
where the New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb (Rev 21:9-10), is the church (Eph 5:31-32).

 

[timothyu]

Not in my interpretation of Rev 21:2 according to NT apostolic teaching,
where the New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb (Rev 21:9-10), is the church (Eph 5:31-32).

It is the home of God and the saints while the rest (most of us) will live outside the city in the Kingdom

 

[sawdust]

Adam and Eve changed inwardly from what God had created them to be.

How did they change inwardly?

 

[sawdust]

I edited my post #311 considerably.

It completely answers your question.

I see the problem too. Bye Clare73.

 

[Clare73]

It is the home of God and the saints while the rest (most of us) will live outside the city in the Kingdom

What are you saying?

Where do you find it in authoritative NT apostolic teaching?

 

[timothyu]

Where do you find it in authoritative NT apostolic teaching?

In Revelation. Read it for yourself.