Determining Reality

[guitarmonster]

Anatheist I want to ask you a question. I'm sure you know that the Bible speaks of both a God and a Devil. Let's just assume for a moment that you do believe in the existence of God, the God that is spoken of in the Bible. If you did believe that, would we be safe to assume that since you have a belief in the biblical God that you would also have to believe in the existence of Satan?

 

[Ana the Ist]

The point is this. History began sometime around 3000-2500 B.C. in the Middle East. So between 2000 B.C. and the time of Christ, in what way did life get better for ordinary people? One can hardly point to the Pyramids as progress. The Pyramids were built by having people push stone blocks weighing many tons up ramps. It was only because the Pharaohs had almost the entire population of Egypt as de facto slave labor that they could build Pyramids at all. When we look at the Pyramids, we should see a tremendous human rights abuse, not a great achievement. Likewise with a mention of "vast empires", it's certainly true that vast empires existed in ancient times, but were they any good for people? Most of those vast empires were horrendously violent and cruel? On the particular issue of new technologies, I've said that there was very little technology invented before Christ's time, not that there was none. Still the fact remains that the Romans farmed basically the stame way that people had for thousands of years. They made clothing the same way that people had for thousands of years. Their civilization largely discouraged innovation.

Once Christian civilization began, technological progress actually began to benefit human beings. In medieval Europe they invented crop rotation, the iron plough, horse collars so that horses could do the ploughing, fish farming, and vastly improved breeding techniques to produce better strains of everything. Soon they had vastly more food for everyone and much less chance of starvation. They invented the fulling mill, the spinning wheel, and foot-powered loom, and other improvements in clothing-making, which allowed almost everyone to have clothes rather than dressing in rags for the first time. In ancient civilizations the great majority of labor was done by people. In medieval Europe it was done by animals, machines, wind, and water. This not only freed people from literally back-breaking labor, but also meant that it took fewer people to do the labor, so more people could follow intellectual or artistic pursuits. It begs the question of why there were so many changes in medieval Europe after thousands of years when many civilizations all over the globe could have made these changes and didn't? Clearly there must be some reason. The reason is that Christian civilization not only accepted but was actively in favor of progress, whereas no other civilization ever had been up to that point, as historian Rodney Stark has documented in his book The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Lead to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success.

Well this explains a lot! You're getting your history from a sociologist of religion, not a historian. I couldn't understand why all your "facts" were wrong considering your education. I'm guessing Rodney Stark wasn't writing your textbooks in history class was he?

His problem Is that when writing his book, he came up with a premise (Christianity makes great societies!) THen he selectively chose facts that support that premise, ignored facts that don't, and outright lied about anything that would prove the premise wrong. Here's a couple of links that show many of the lies, and falsehoods, and outright propaganda that Rodney is trying to pass off as history.

“The Tragedy of Theology: How Religion Caused and Extended the Dark Ages” by Andrew Bernstein

Rodney Stark’s idiotic history – Evolving Thoughts

ENjoy

 

[Ana the Ist]

That is not at issue here, only your nasty ad hom "the whole thinking world."

Which is proven false.

Thankfully I never said that...you must be quoting someone else. Go ahead and check.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Anatheist I want to ask you a question. I'm sure you know that the Bible speaks of both a God and a Devil. Let's just assume for a moment that you do believe in the existence of God, the God that is spoken of in the Bible. If you did believe that, would we be safe to assume that since you have a belief in the biblical God that you would also have to believe in the existence of Satan?

We are speaking hypothetically? I suppose yes, I would have to believe in the devil of the bible if I believed in the god of the bible. Although I'd like to add its difficult to say what I would believe in any hypothetical situation.

 

[razeontherock]

ORLY?

As for me, and the rest of the thinking world

Click on the little blue arrow, read it, and weep. Wrong again, Ana!

 

[Ana the Ist]

ORLY?



Click on the little blue arrow, read it, and weep. Wrong again, Ana!

LOL ummm...can you see the word "whole" in quotes anywhere?

 

[razeontherock]

LOL ummm...can you see the word "whole" in quotes anywhere?

Ok Mr Pedantic - same exact meaning. Deal with the substance - your claim is 100% wrong, with evidence - as usual.

 

[guitarmonster]

We are speaking hypothetically? I suppose yes, I would have to believe in the devil of the bible if I believed in the god of the bible. Although I'd like to add its difficult to say what I would believe in any hypothetical situation.

Then you understand that if the Bible were true, there would be an all powerful God, and there would be a very powerful Satan. Since Satan was the most powerful angel who was thrown down from Heaven, his ability to deceive would be quite powerful. As pointed out earlier, there have been people who have fabricated hoaxes to try and win people over for Christ, just the same the Devil as launched many ploys to distract those from recognizing the one true God. Yes there are things in this world that would cause one to doubt the existence of God, but I don't feel that there is anything concrete. Actually I don't believe there is any proof one way or the other that you could call concrete. The problem that we face in this world is the interpretation of God's word. It's not just a story book that is full of examples of how God wants us to live our lives. If anyone were to live just by the Bible, without having the faith in God and being touched by God's spirit, they would live a very difficult life. If you've been around long enough you will find argument over argument about what every different little Bible verse means, although you can't just take a Bible verse and just say "this is what it is, accept it." When you read things in the Bible, you have to realize that someone who has accepted Christ into their heart, and has received the Holy Spirit then has interpretation provided to them which essentially unlocks the Word of God for that person.

This would be if I were to tell you I discovered how to travel through time, so you tell me to show you. I tell you to stand with your feet close together, click your heels three times and say where you want to go. Instead of just trying it, you take hours and hours analyzing, questioning and arguing on how it's not possible. I keep telling you that you have to try it to believe it, but you don't try it. Would you continue to try and pick apart my reasoning? Or would you eventually stand up and start clicking your heels?

You may think that becoming a Christian is this process where you have to literally change every aspect of your life. Get rid of your rock and roll t-shirts and buy a suit, etc. People make the mistake of associating accepting Christ with loss of freedom. This is really not the case at all. I can tell you that ever since I have my life to Christ things have been so much better than me. The amazing thing was I gave up everything, then it was as if he gave it all back to me ten fold. I have been blessed with seeing amazing miracles, both in my life and others lives. I can tell you that I would not trade this for anything, and I would happily die for my beliefs, I would die for the sake of Christ because he died for me.

 

[guitarmonster]

The amazing thing about how the Devil works is we have discussed every single ridiculous detail of everything that is basically a waste of time. The Devil is really good at keeping people distracted, as this is shown through this topic as well as probably about 95% of the other topics on this site.

I will say that from talking to many non-believers, 95% of them do not believe in God because of the fact that they see people who call themselves Christians, they go to church and put smiles on their faces, but deep down they are wretched wolves in sheep clothing. I have heard it over and over "if Christians are like that, then there cannot be a God"

Anatheist, I don't know if you were once a believer and were turned off or not, but the most important thing to remember is you CANNOT put any trust in man, at all. I learned this the hard way. I went to church with many people who would smile in your face, and tell you they love you and all that good stuff. But their actions showed nothing but pure evil, their actions that are performed behind closed doors where nobody (but God) can see. They smile at your face, then as soon as you turn around they stab you right in the back. Churches are packed full of these Pharisees, these self righteous, stiff necked believers that think they are following Christ, but they are not. I have had these people literally tell me to my face "you are going to hell" and "there is no forgiveness for you". I had a time in my life where I was struggling with something and I needed someone's help, where were my Christian brothers and sisters? I thought we were all in this together! When I lost my home years ago I had "Christians" who once said to me "if you get stuck you can stay with us for a while", only to later on at the last minute say "we just don't have room", as they live in a $350,000 house. Then I have a friend of mine who is hardcore Atheist, barely has two sticks to rub together, and he opens his home to me without even a thought? What is up with that?

I will tell you what is up with that. Too many Christians are guilty of preaching the word, but not living the Word. They think that Christianity means let's have our nice little quiet church where everyone looks normal, no teens with rock and roll shirts or piercings. I can tell you that if you for some reason have chosen to reject God because of how other Christians have treated you, then it's time for you to lose your faith. When I say "lose your faith" I mean completely lose your faith in man, realize that there is not one person on this Earth that has your best interests at heart, no there is not even one. This is what I had to do, when I found that even people who were involved in the ministry would not reach out to me for support on different spiritual issues, and nobody would help me when I didn't have a home. I ended up telling my Atheist friend who opened his home to me "it's funny how you don't believe in God, but you seem to live your life closer to His Word than most Christians I know."

Even on here Anatheist, just about everyone on here is arguing with you, they are more focused on proving that you are wrong than following the spirit of God and letting the Holy Spirit do his work. They argue because they are self righteous, in their minds and hearts they have transcended where you are, they feel they are now an authority to pass down judgement.

Anatheist if you ever want to have a discussion instead of an argument, you can always send me a private message. I will be praying that the Holy Spirit will speak to your heart, I just hope that you will open your heart to listen.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The amazing thing about how the Devil works is we have discussed every single ridiculous detail of everything that is basically a waste of time. The Devil is really good at keeping people distracted, as this is shown through this topic as well as probably about 95% of the other topics on this site.

I will say that from talking to many non-believers, 95% of them do not believe in God because of the fact that they see people who call themselves Christians, they go to church and put smiles on their faces, but deep down they are wretched wolves in sheep clothing. I have heard it over and over "if Christians are like that, then there cannot be a God"

Anatheist, I don't know if you were once a believer and were turned off or not, but the most important thing to remember is you CANNOT put any trust in man, at all. I learned this the hard way. I went to church with many people who would smile in your face, and tell you they love you and all that good stuff. But their actions showed nothing but pure evil, their actions that are performed behind closed doors where nobody (but God) can see. They smile at your face, then as soon as you turn around they stab you right in the back. Churches are packed full of these Pharisees, these self righteous, stiff necked believers that think they are following Christ, but they are not. I have had these people literally tell me to my face "you are going to hell" and "there is no forgiveness for you". I had a time in my life where I was struggling with something and I needed someone's help, where were my Christian brothers and sisters? I thought we were all in this together! When I lost my home years ago I had "Christians" who once said to me "if you get stuck you can stay with us for a while", only to later on at the last minute say "we just don't have room", as they live in a $350,000 house. Then I have a friend of mine who is hardcore Atheist, barely has two sticks to rub together, and he opens his home to me without even a thought? What is up with that?

I will tell you what is up with that. Too many Christians are guilty of preaching the word, but not living the Word. They think that Christianity means let's have our nice little quiet church where everyone looks normal, no teens with rock and roll shirts or piercings. I can tell you that if you for some reason have chosen to reject God because of how other Christians have treated you, then it's time for you to lose your faith. When I say "lose your faith" I mean completely lose your faith in man, realize that there is not one person on this Earth that has your best interests at heart, no there is not even one. This is what I had to do, when I found that even people who were involved in the ministry would not reach out to me for support on different spiritual issues, and nobody would help me when I didn't have a home. I ended up telling my Atheist friend who opened his home to me "it's funny how you don't believe in God, but you seem to live your life closer to His Word than most Christians I know."

Even on here Anatheist, just about everyone on here is arguing with you, they are more focused on proving that you are wrong than following the spirit of God and letting the Holy Spirit do his work. They argue because they are self righteous, in their minds and hearts they have transcended where you are, they feel they are now an authority to pass down judgement.

Anatheist if you ever want to have a discussion instead of an argument, you can always send me a private message. I will be praying that the Holy Spirit will speak to your heart, I just hope that you will open your heart to listen.

Sorry I haven't responded sooner, I would've responded to your previous post but you made this one before I could. Let me start by saying that I realize your intentions are good. You mean well. However, this post and your last one have revealed your mindset perhaps a little too much. You've made many many assumptions about me that aren't true. You've made some pretty broad generalizations about atheists and Christians that I would also have to disagree with. HOnestly, I'm not sure why you would do this, except for perhaps you felt you needed to create a starting point of sorts to "help" me.

" Get rid of your rock and roll t-shirts and buy a suit, etc."
Do you have some idea of me as some sort of dyed-hair, ripped jeans, pierced everything, anti-establishmen punk? I can only assure you this is far from the truth.

" Actually I don't believe there is any proof one way or the other that you could call concrete."
" I can tell you that I would not trade this for anything, and I would happily die for my beliefs, I would die for the sake of Christ because he died for me."
This really speaks to my OP. You admit that you don't know of any "concrete proof" and yet you're willing to die for this belief. I'm sure we could come up with several things you don't believe because there is no concrete proof one way or the other, and yet you suspend this method of thinking when it comes to Christianity. So much so that you would die for it.

" I have heard it over and over "if Christians are like that, then there cannot be a God"
I've never heard an atheist say this, not once. Not on here (CF) or anywhere else. I don't know how many atheists you've spoken with, but to be honest with you, this sounds more like a common Christian mischaracterization of atheists than actual atheists. The reason for this is pretty simple, that statement is a classic strawman. Most atheists (IMO) who discuss religion are very familiar with strawmen and avoid using them at any cost. Basing your beliefs on a strawman would be awful and other atheists would jump all over any atheist who did that. I know I would, its just bad logic. Nearly every atheist I've ever known, including myself, bases their belief on evidence (or lack of it).

" you CANNOT put any trust in man"
It's a little sad you think this. I've known many trustworthy people. As for the ones who aren't trustworthy, I can at least trust them to act as people lol.

"I can tell you that if you for some reason have chosen to reject God because of how other Christians have treated you,"
THat's not why I'm atheist, please remember I don't believe in any god, not just yours.

" everyone on here is arguing with you, they are more focused on proving that you are wrong"
DId you read the OP? The discussions here are founded in that question, if we disagree-that's fine, that makes a good discussion.

" in their minds and hearts they have transcended where you are,"
Have they now? LOL

" you can always send me a private message."
You can do the same, I appreciate the offer.

 

[razeontherock]

I'll even be nice enough to explain the difference. The "whole thinking world" would refer to everyone as a matter of fact. The "rest of thinking world" would refer to those who agree with the statement, as a matter of opinion. It wasn't a statement meant to malign anyone.

Ok, now let's place this in context. You said (and I quote) "As for me, and the rest of the thinking world." Now to me, that reads as if anyone capable of thought, or at least rational thought, would de facto have no choice but to agree with you.

You meant it to mean just those that agree with you? Please allow me to be so bold as to suggest that the phrase doesn't convey that. Perhaps "me, and all like-minded people."

I point this out because there are times when, for whatever reason, I say something that makes total sense to me, (and a few others) that leave others sincerely bewildered.

This seems to be one of those times, 'cept the shoe is on the other foot. I pointed out how there were some pretty bright individuals who disagreed with your particular point; namely, Ben Franklin and the other FF's who disassociated with Paine over "The Age of Reason." He was urged not to release it, after he requested an audience for a proof-read. (Reminds me of Bush asking for UN support, not getting it, then going in anyway; but I digress)

Anyway the single greatest evidence of this is that Paine died a pauper. Although there is a paper trail, which you could find, if you were so inclined. I found it interesting, especially since the very character of the whole thing is quite different than anything anyone taught in school.

 

[guitarmonster]

Let's look at the difference between if you are right and I am right.

If I am right:
When I die, I get to go to Heaven, hence I protect myself from landing in hell

If I am wrong:
Still didn't go to hell since it didn't exist anyway

So in the two above situations, I would like to know where I am losing out. If you feel so convinced that there is no God, then I would like you to please tell me how I can benefit from dropping my faith. I want to know since us Christians usually sell the perks (going to Heaven, knowing the one true God, etc) of being a Christian, but so far I have not seen one single perk from being an unbeliever.

And yes I know that I did come across with kind of a stereotypical look at both unbelievers and believers. I actually did that to show the level of ignorance that exists in today's congregation. And yeah I do have a pretty bad outlook on most people who call themselves Christians, because at one point I went through some bad things in my life and got to see the really ugly side of some of these people. I'm not going to get into it but I can almost guarantee that If you knew what I knew you would agree that I did experience some pretty terrible things. There are a lot of wolves in sheeps clothing in the church, and I have seen so many people chased away from their faith as a result. I understand that although I follow the one true God, there are many many others who claim his name but are only for themselves, and they stain the church. When I say that I was not able to trust anyone, I am just saying that because I am stating what my reality was years ago, based on the fact that everyone had turned their back on me, well everyone except my unbeliever friend who did step up (good credit for him). Also when I say the word Atheist, I understand that you are the way you are because you base things on evidence. Many people call themselves atheists just because they don't believe in God, which is why I used the term in more of a broad sense.

So with that said and I am very interested in your answer. Please tell me how my life will benefit from shedding my faith and following the ways of Atheism?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ok, now let's place this in context. You said (and I quote) "As for me, and the rest of the thinking world." Now to me, that reads as if anyone capable of thought, or at least rational thought, would de facto have no choice but to agree with you.

You meant it to mean just those that agree with you? Please allow me to be so bold as to suggest that the phrase doesn't convey that. Perhaps "me, and all like-minded people."

I point this out because there are times when, for whatever reason, I say something that makes total sense to me, (and a few others) that leave others sincerely bewildered.

This seems to be one of those times, 'cept the shoe is on the other foot. I pointed out how there were some pretty bright individuals who disagreed with your particular point; namely, Ben Franklin and the other FF's who disassociated with Paine over "The Age of Reason." He was urged not to release it, after he requested an audience for a proof-read. (Reminds me of Bush asking for UN support, not getting it, then going in anyway; but I digress)

Anyway the single greatest evidence of this is that Paine died a pauper. Although there is a paper trail, which you could find, if you were so inclined. I found it interesting, especially since the very character of the whole thing is quite different than anything anyone taught in school.

I'll gladly admit I could've worded it better. Still I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. That a treatise wasn't popular in its time or that the author died poor isn't indicative of the truth it contains. I chose that quote because its good. It's easily understood by the lay person and the logic is sound.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That's news to me. The only link I recall giving that's related to Columbus and the myth of the flat earth is this one, and it flaty (yuk yuk) says that you're wrong and I'm right. It says: "The idea that the uncouth people of the Middle Ages thought the Earth was flat is an example of the myth that has been propagated since the nineteenth century to give us a quite unfair view of this vibrant and exciting period." So pray tell, when exactly did I give a link to evidence for people believing in a flat earth in Columbus' time?

In post #81 you said "Would Columbus have sailed to the Americas if he accepted the beliefs of so many flat-earthers?" I then gently pointed out that nobody in Columbus' time believed in a flat earth and gave a citation to the article, written by an actual historian, to prove the point. Rather than admitting to being wrong, you doubled down in post #87 by saying: "For the record, its entirely likely that the majority of the population of Columbus' time did believe in a flat-earth." I asked you for some evidence to back up this claim, and thus far we haven't seen any. So I hereby ask you again: do you, or do you not, have evidence that Christopher Columbus ever met a single person who believed that the earth was flat?


Okay, so you've got a page on Wikipedia which claims that the Flat Earth Society exists and links to this webpage. That raises two questions. First, why do you say that "they will give you a lovely bible-based theory for a flat earth", when in actuality the webpage doesn't mention the Bible? Second, what makes you think that the person who made that webpage actually believes that the earth is flat, as opposed to seeing it as a joke?

I mentioned anecdotal evidence that there were those who believed in a flat earth, the link you provided gives two authors, then contends that "no one really believed them". I can provide other references that the common man held this belief, but again, its largely second or third hand evidence as the common man was largely illiterate.

As for the Flat-Earth Society, I did a little research, and found scriptural quotes from the founder which he bases his flat-earth beliefs upon. If you would provide me with an address, I'll request some material from him to be sent to you and you can judge for yourself his "seriousness".

 

[razeontherock]

That a treatise wasn't popular in its time or that the author died poor isn't indicative of the truth it contains. I chose that quote because its good. It's easily understood by the lay person and the logic is sound.

Ok, now I have NO recollection of the original quote you're referring to have "chosen." I'm curious to see it, if I can also agree it has sound logic ...

 

[razeontherock]

As for the Flat-Earth Society, I did a little research, and found scriptural quotes from the founder which he bases his flat-earth beliefs upon. If you would provide me with an address, I'll request some material from him to be sent to you and you can judge for yourself his "seriousness".

Yeah, you could make the case, based on woeful distortion of Biblical content. You're familiar with Poe's law?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ok, now I have NO recollection of the original quote you're referring to have "chosen." I'm curious to see it, if I can also agree it has sound logic ...

Post 118.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yeah, you could make the case, based on woeful distortion of Biblical content. You're familiar with Poe's law?

He asked for proof that people still believe in a flat-earth. I gave it.

 

[razeontherock]

"I lay it down as a position which cannot be controverted. First, that the agreement of all the parts of a story does not prove that story to be true, because the parts may agree and the whole may be false; secondly, that the disagreement of the parts of a story proves that the whole cannot be true."

Hmmm. That second part reflects older contract law. If one part is broken, the whole thing is unenforceable. These days, it is standard that if one part is broken, the other parts are still in effect, as much as still can be.

I think this is an instance where our age of reason is better than his; i.e., if one part of a story is false, the whole story is not necessarily false, just that one part.

 

[razeontherock]

He asked for proof that people still believe in a flat-earth. I gave it.

Right. I'm saying that Poe's law is proven here. Their stance is so preposterous it's impossible to tell if they're serious, or parody. (Nathan Poe actually extended that to essentially anything a Christian might say takes on that character, but Nathan is a bloomin' idiot)