Determining Reality

[Ana the Ist]

Hello, this may seem like an overly simple question, but I would like to know how Christians determine reality? How do you decide fact from fiction? How do you know truth from opinion or belief? Is the bible your main source for this kind of determination? Something else?

I know this may seem a very vague question, but I am interested. Although the question is addressed to Christians, any faith or religion may answer. Thank you.

 

[andreha]

Hello, this may seem like an overly simple question, but I would like to know how Christians determine reality? How do you decide fact from fiction? How do you know truth from opinion or belief? Is the bible your main source for this kind of determination? Something else?

I know this may seem a very vague question, but I am interested. Although the question is addressed to Christians, any faith or religion may answer. Thank you.

We are guided by the Spirit of God. He has saved my life a number of times, by warning me of immediate danger before any of my senses could perceive it. Since everything He gives me proves to be true time after time, it can only be from God the Father. The divinity of His love is unmistakable. A Christian who welcomes the Holy Spirit will indeed experience His lead. That's what makes Christianity unique.

 

[secondtimearound]

Hello, this may seem like an overly simple question, but I would like to know how Christians determine reality? How do you decide fact from fiction? How do you know truth from opinion or belief? Is the bible your main source for this kind of determination? Something else?

How do you determine reality? Christians are no different than you. People. We all have what epistomologists call properly basic beliefs, beliefs that make up the very foundation of our beliefs. This is how you determine things like the existence of other minds and the external world to be real.

Here is the thing, as Christians we base our belief on the transforming power of Jesus Christ in our lives. Once you have experienced Christ, you have a much easier time accepting, say for instance, that the Bible is Holy literature or that God has a personal relationship with every Christian. It is also because of the change in people's lives and the work of the Holy spirit in us that a lot of Christians will take the Bible at face-value and posit things like a 6000 year old universe, contrary to the evidence. They may have an error in their logic and reason past the foundation, but they do not have an error in the foundation. We believe it because we experience it and if you want, you can experience it too.

I know this may seem a very vague question, but I am interested. Although the question is addressed to Christians, any faith or religion may answer. Thank you.

This is a forum dedicated to exploring Christianity, someone of another faith cannot respond.

 

[oi_antz]

Hello, this may seem like an overly simple question, but I would like to know how Christians determine reality?

Me too! I suspect this is something not many people really consider, but it is something everyone will immediately get defensive about. It is good that you've asked this, I hope you get good mileage from this thread.

How do you decide fact from fiction?

Faith. Even scientists use it. I assume you are referencing faith in biblical accounts. Besides that personal experiences with regards to the bible have proven Gods power to me, it makes perfect logical sense that the authors are being honest and recording events to the best of their knowledge. If someone believes they will answer to God for their actions in life, why would they go and lie about Him? Of course there have been more than a few wolves in sheeps clothing that have deceived the weak, but they are still wolves. There is nothing in the bible which indicates that the authors are wolves in sheeps clothing. Let me ask you in return, how do you decide that the facts in the bible are fictitious?

How do you know truth from opinion or belief?

How does a scientist know that God didn't create the universe to appear old? Is evolutionary theory truth, belief or opinion? Does it even matter since it is a reliable means to an end?

Is the bible your main source for this kind of determination? Something else?

When the bible gives a very clear and specific account of genealogy from one ancestor to a descendant, it is quite obvious that it intends to be a specific account of genealogy. So to say that the biblical account is not meant to be read the way it is written is either heresy, or a convenient excuse for those who don't want to believe it.

I know this may seem a very vague question, but I am interested. Although the question is addressed to Christians, any faith or religion may answer. Thank you.

I'd like to hear what other non-Christian minds think about this too, including yourself. Perhaps you should ask a moderator to move it to the CWR forum.

 

[Radagast]

... How do you decide fact from fiction? ...

It's an awfully vague question, but we distinguish fact from fiction by considering evidence. The kind of evidence used depends on whether the issue is mathematics, or science, or history, or theology, or morality.

 

[Ana the Ist]

How do you determine reality? Christians are no different than you. People. We all have what epistomologists call properly basic beliefs, beliefs that make up the very foundation of our beliefs. This is how you determine things like the existence of other minds and the external world to be real.

Here is the thing, as Christians we base our belief on the transforming power of Jesus Christ in our lives. Once you have experienced Christ, you have a much easier time accepting, say for instance, that the Bible is Holy literature or that God has a personal relationship with every Christian. It is also because of the change in people's lives and the work of the Holy spirit in us that a lot of Christians will take the Bible at face-value and posit things like a 6000 year old universe, contrary to the evidence. They may have an error in their logic and reason past the foundation, but they do not have an error in the foundation. We believe it because we experience it and if you want, you can experience it too.



This is a forum dedicated to exploring Christianity, someone of another faith cannot respond.

Beliefs, sure. They are essentially the way we group information about reality and the conclusions we draw from that information. When those beliefs are consistently correct with reality we say we have the truth. What I'm not sure everyone realizes though, is that those beliefs don't actually affect reality. Some people (especially on CF) seem to think that because they believe something, it is true. There are lots of ways to gather the information that makes up our beliefs, but it seems to me that the vast majority them have significant problems when it comes to forming beliefs that are true. So if you agree with my statement here, the question becomes what is the best source of information for creating beliefs that are true in regards to reality?

Also, please don't report any non-Christians who want to answer the OP. I'm mainly interested in the Christian responses but as an afterthought I figured if anyone else wanted to answer the OP it could make an interesting comparison.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's an awfully vague question, but we distinguish fact from fiction by considering evidence. The kind of evidence used depends on whether the issue is mathematics, or science, or history, or theology, or morality.

Can you explain what theological evidence or moral evidence is? I've honestly never heard of those.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Me too! I suspect this is something not many people really consider, but it is something everyone will immediately get defensive about. It is good that you've asked this, I hope you get good mileage from this thread.

Faith. Even scientists use it. I assume you are referencing faith in biblical accounts. Besides that personal experiences with regards to the bible have proven Gods power to me, it makes perfect logical sense that the authors are being honest and recording events to the best of their knowledge. If someone believes they will answer to God for their actions in life, why would they go and lie about Him? Of course there have been more than a few wolves in sheeps clothing that have deceived the weak, but they are still wolves. There is nothing in the bible which indicates that the authors are wolves in sheeps clothing. Let me ask you in return, how do you decide that the facts in the bible are fictitious?

How does a scientist know that God didn't create the universe to appear old? Is evolutionary theory truth, belief or opinion? Does it even matter since it is a reliable means to an end?

When the bible gives a very clear and specific account of genealogy from one ancestor to a descendant, it is quite obvious that it intends to be a specific account of genealogy. So to say that the biblical account is not meant to be read the way it is written is either heresy, or a convenient excuse for those who don't want to believe it.

I'd like to hear what other non-Christian minds think about this too, including yourself. Perhaps you should ask a moderator to move it to the CWR forum.

What definition of faith are you using? I would be using the modern definition, and I don't see many scientists using faith in their work.

You asked me why I consider "facts" in the bible to be fiction. I'll need to know what "facts" you're referring to before I can answer that.

Scientists don't "know" god didn't create the universe to appear old, just as you don't "know" that he did. Scientists don't hold that belief because there is no evidence to support that idea. Evolution is true because of the tremendous amount of evidence that supports the idea. I don't know what "means to an end" you're referring to.

 

[Radagast]

Can you explain what theological evidence or moral evidence is? I've honestly never heard of those.

For a variety of reasons, Christians consider the Bible as evidence on theological and moral issues -- as I'm sure you know.

Christians also take the voice of conscience as evidence (though less reliable) on moral issues and take nature itself as evidence on some theological issues: "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made" and "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

 

[Ana the Ist]

For a variety of reasons, Christians consider the Bible as evidence on theological and moral issues -- as I'm sure you know.

Christians also take the voice of conscience as evidence (though less reliable) on moral issues and take nature itself as evidence on some theological issues: "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made" and "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

DId you happen to read my reply to secondtimearound? Beliefs don't affect reality. This kind of gets to the heart of my OP. Just because you believe the bible to be evidence of something doesn't make it evidence of something in reality. Just because the bible says a city called Jericho existed doesn't mean that city existed. However if we do an archeological dig and find a city that is likely Jericho, that is evidence. A science textbook isn't evidence of anything, but the experiments you can perform from it are evidence.

 

[Theofane]

Hello, this may seem like an overly simple question, but I would like to know how Christians determine reality?

Mainly by sight, smell, hearing, touch, and taste. But I know I can't trust my physical senses absolutely. If I have a sixth sense it's my faith in God or my intuition.

How do you decide fact from fiction?

By looking through a glass darkly.

How do you know truth from opinion or belief?

My physical senses can separate for me what is though or believed from that which is. But again, my senses cannot be trusted absolutely.

Is the bible your main source for this kind of determination?

The Bible speaks what I recognize as transcendant truth.

I know this may seem a very vague question, but I am interested. Although the question is addressed to Christians, any faith or religion may answer. Thank you.

 

[Radagast]

DId you happen to read my reply to secondtimearound? Beliefs don't affect reality. This kind of gets to the heart of my OP. Just because you believe the bible to be evidence of something doesn't make it evidence of something in reality...

Oh, it's evidence all right. How much weight you place on Biblical evidence (as opposed, say, to evidence from Herodotus) depends on your point of view.

You seem to be assuming that documentary evidence is always worthless, which seems like an odd point of view. How do you know Barack Obama exists, for example? Have you ever seen him with your own eyes?

As for me, I'm taking your post as evidence that you didn't really have a genuine question, but were just looking for an opportunity to make a point.

 

[secondtimearound]

Beliefs, sure. They are essentially the way we group information about reality and the conclusions we draw from that information. When those beliefs are consistently correct with reality we say we have the truth. What I'm not sure everyone realizes though, is that those beliefs don't actually affect reality.

Of course they do. They affect the way we percieve reality and we interact with reality so they absolutley have an effect on reality. For example the fact that other minds exist is part of reality and how I interact with other minds effects that reality.

Some people (especially on CF) seem to think that because they believe something, it is true. There are lots of ways to gather the information that makes up our beliefs, but it seems to me that the vast majority them have significant problems when it comes to forming beliefs that are true.

I don't think you have any idea how hypocritical this statement is. One, you are are a person posting on CF. Two, you believe your beliefs to be true. Three, you are asuming their beliefs to be false which means you think you're beliefs are true. You are doing the very thing you accuse the people on here of doing without realizing that you yourself are the people on here. This is a textbook example of special pleading. Jesus said it best, "Take the plank out of your eye before you talk about the speck in your brothers".

So if you agree with my statement here, the question becomes what is the best source of information for creating beliefs that are true in regards to reality?

That was the whole point of my previous post. The only way to form a belief that is properly basic is through experience and as Christians we expereince the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Not to mention what we experience in prayer and in worship. Our lives are a testimony to the reality that God exists, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that His Holy Spirit resides in us.

Also, please don't report any non-Christians who want to answer the OP. I'm mainly interested in the Christian responses but as an afterthought I figured if anyone else wanted to answer the OP it could make an interesting comparison.

You can take this question to another part of the board if you like, only Christians post here to answer your questions. I don't make the rules.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Oh, it's evidence all right. How much weight you place on Biblical evidence (as opposed, say, to evidence from Herodotus) depends on your point of view.

You seem to be assuming that documentary evidence is always worthless, which seems like an odd point of view. How do you know Barack Obama exists, for example? Have you ever seen him with your own eyes?

As for me, I'm taking your post as evidence that you didn't really have a genuine question, but were just looking for an opportunity to make a point.

Well documentary evidence is a type of evidence, sure. Normally when speaking of documentary evidence, we mean a type of evidence where information is written on paper (a will, contract, receipt) that can be verified through the parties involved in its writing. An ancient document is information written on paper where you cannot verify its contents because the parties involved in its creation are dead. In that case, all we can assume is that it is what it says it is (a will, contract, or in this case a bible) and the truth of its contents must be judged by other means.

Your point about Barak Obama seems odd. True I haven't seen him in person, but I can. I can visit the White House in hopes of catching a glimpse or attend one of his rallies for the next election. I have means of verifying that information should I doubt it.

The OP was and is A genuine question, and so far the answers haven't disappointed.

 

[AlexBP]

Well documentary evidence is a type of evidence, sure. Normally when speaking of documentary evidence, we mean a type of evidence where information is written on paper (a will, contract, receipt) that can be verified through the parties involved in its writing. An ancient document is information written on paper where you cannot verify its contents because the parties involved in its creation are dead. In that case, all we can assume is that it is what it says it is (a will, contract, or in this case a bible) and the truth of its contents must be judged by other means.

Your definition of documentary evidence is incorrect, at least as it relates to the study of history. When historians says that they have "documentary evidence" for an event, they mean they have some written documentation written by somebody which describes that event. In some cases, there is additional evidence, perhaps from archaeology, which supports the documentary evidence. In other cases there is nothing at all other than the documentary evidence. In such cases, they evaluate the documents to determine how reliable they are.

Consider one example. The late Carl Sagan, the world's mst famous skeptic, wrote fulsome praise for scientists from ancient ionian scientists, such as Heracletus, Anazimander, and Xenophanes. There is absolutely no evidence that these men existed other than documents about their life. Yet Sagan never doubted that they did exist. The same is true for literally thousands of historical individuals whose existence no one questions--the only evidence for their existence is documents about them. If we were to follow the standards that you apparently demand, we'd have to conclude that virtually no one in the ancient world existed.

In the case of Jesus Christ, we have four historical biographies written about him roughly 40 to 50 years after his earthly life. Those biographies are complete (most ancient documents are fragmentary), they have an exceptional level of detail and precision, and they are supported by a large body of additional information from letters written by Christ's followers and by outside historians. There are very few individuals from the ancient world for whom we have the same wealth of high-quality evidence that we have for Jesus.

Your point about Barak Obama seems odd. True I haven't seen him in person, but I can. I can visit the White House in hopes of catching a glimpse or attend one of his rallies for the next election. I have means of verifying that information should I doubt it.

Here's a better question. Do you believe that the former planet Pluto exists? How about ecosystems and deep-sea vents? Or the molten iron core of the earth? Now we, that is the people on this board, cannot experiment to verify the existence of these things, since none of us are top-tier scientists with the resources to do so. Our only options are to either believe or disbelieve what the authorities write about these things.

 

[salida]

Faith and intellect.


This is the tip of the iceberg.The bible has certain characteristics to conclude it could only be written by God. No other religious book does this.
Visit: www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest.

100 fulfilled Bible prophecies
Reasons To Believe : Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible (science website)
Eyewitnesses to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
Apologetics Study - Evidence For The Christian Faith
Bible Reliability: M-A-P-S to Guide You through Bible Reliability

Historical Accuracy(bible is the most accurate history book)
The bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago and has not
been proven incorrect in any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament starts - at 25 years between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years

Number of Manuscript Copies-New Testament - 5,686/Homer - 643/Demosthenes - 200/
Plato - 7/Caesar -10

 

[Ana the Ist]

Of course they do. They affect the way we percieve reality and we interact with reality so they absolutley have an effect on reality. For example the fact that other minds exist is part of reality and how I interact with other minds effects that reality.



I don't think you have any idea how hypocritical this statement is. One, you are are a person posting on CF. Two, you believe your beliefs to be true. Three, you are asuming their beliefs to be false which means you think you're beliefs are true. You are doing the very thing you accuse the people on here of doing without realizing that you yourself are the people on here. This is a textbook example of special pleading. Jesus said it best, "Take the plank out of your eye before you talk about the speck in your brothers".




That was the whole point of my previous post. The only way to form a belief that is properly basic is through experience and as Christians we expereince the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Not to mention what we experience in prayer and in worship. Our lives are a testimony to the reality that God exists, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that His Holy Spirit resides in us.



You can take this question to another part of the board if you like, only Christians post here to answer your questions. I don't make the rules.

I think you misunderstood me on several points, especially in the second paragraph where you mischaracterized my statements entirely.

FIrst off, you are correct, beliefs to affect minds and influence actions. In that way, they do affect reality. Perhaps I would've done better to say, "Beliefs don't affect the reality they are based upon." That is, something isn't true simply because you believe it. You can't believe something into existence. Your beliefs about past events doesn't affect how those events played out. In essence, whatever information is used to create a belief is not affected by that belief.

Try rereading the part you called "special pleading" because it isn't. I hold my beliefs to the same standards as anyone else's. My point (which you seem to have missed) was that some people think that because they believe something, it Is true. This is never the case. I believe things because they are true, they aren't true simply because I believe them. Also, I never said anyone's beliefs are false, I simply said they aren't true because they are believed.

What exactly was this transforming power of The Holy Spirit that you experienced? Can you tell me what the experience was and how you know the Holy Spirit was the cause?

 

[Theofane]

Don't answer that question!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Your definition of documentary evidence is incorrect, at least as it relates to the study of history. When historians says that they have "documentary evidence" for an event, they mean they have some written documentation written by somebody which describes that event. In some cases, there is additional evidence, perhaps from archaeology, which supports the documentary evidence. In other cases there is nothing at all other than the documentary evidence. In such cases, they evaluate the documents to determine how reliable they are.

Consider one example. The late Carl Sagan, the world's mst famous skeptic, wrote fulsome praise for scientists from ancient ionian scientists, such as Heracletus, Anazimander, and Xenophanes. There is absolutely no evidence that these men existed other than documents about their life. Yet Sagan never doubted that they did exist. The same is true for literally thousands of historical individuals whose existence no one questions--the only evidence for their existence is documents about them. If we were to follow the standards that you apparently demand, we'd have to conclude that virtually no one in the ancient world existed.

In the case of Jesus Christ, we have four historical biographies written about him roughly 40 to 50 years after his earthly life. Those biographies are complete (most ancient documents are fragmentary), they have an exceptional level of detail and precision, and they are supported by a large body of additional information from letters written by Christ's followers and by outside historians. There are very few individuals from the ancient world for whom we have the same wealth of high-quality evidence that we have for Jesus.


Here's a better question. Do you believe that the former planet Pluto exists? How about ecosystems and deep-sea vents? Or the molten iron core of the earth? Now we, that is the people on this board, cannot experiment to verify the existence of these things, since none of us are top-tier scientists with the resources to do so. Our only options are to either believe or disbelieve what the authorities write about these things.

"They are supported by a large body of additional information from letters written by Christ's followers and by outside historians"--Can you tell me what some of this information is that you are referring to? I've looked before and never found any evidence like you're mentioning here that isn't in the bible.

You're right in saying that we use such documents to believe some ancient figures existed. However we don't look at the documents blindly and just accept everything in them as truth. We have methods for evaluating such evidence called reason and logic. For example, we have many written documents that speak of a rather amazing man named Hercules. Like Jesus, he was also born of a god to a mortal mother and did many amazing things. Even though the stories of him include many people meeting him and witnessing his abilities, probably no one today believes he ever existed. Why is that? Simple, reason and logic tell you that no one could have ever been as strong as he was. It's not a story that fits with reality.

You're correct, I do not currently have the resources to test for the scientific evidence you pointed out. However, that evidence can be used to create hypotheses which can be verified by other experiments. It makes sense using the guidelines of reason and logic to believe these things. If you ever really doubted them, or believed in different explanations for those hypotheses, you could still dedicate your time and energy into testing those hypotheses.

 

[Faulty]

Hello, this may seem like an overly simple question, but I would like to know how Christians determine reality? How do you decide fact from fiction? How do you know truth from opinion or belief? Is the bible your main source for this kind of determination? Something else?

I know this may seem a very vague question, but I am interested. Although the question is addressed to Christians, any faith or religion may answer. Thank you.

Well, I have the same brain you do, the same mind, same reasoning capabilities, same logic, and the same information.

I use what is available and understand there is a God. You use what is available and don't understand there is a God.

I then apply what I have towards this understanding. You then apply what you have towards your lack of understanding.

Our realities are identical, we just do different things with them.