Democrats - bold enough to get away with anything and everything without consequences.

[SolomonVII]

Pardon me for caring about Palestinian lives, including the lives of Palestinian Christians. If that's emotional, count me in.

Passions and feelings are a good thing, an necessary thing even, for both human morality and even human existence. Passions are what separate the mammals from the lizards, after all.

To follow the ancient philosophies, and have reason be guiding and reigning over those passions, is where the good lies.
Mammals are guided by their passions too. Humans however require reason to determine which passions to follow, and which to redirect.

 

[WordList]

Passions and feelings are a good thing, an necessary thing even, for both human morality and even human existence. Passions are what separate the mammals from the lizards, after all.

To follow the ancient philosophies, and have reason be guiding and reigning over those passions, is where the good lies.
Mammals are guided by their passions too. Humans however require reason to determine which passions to follow, and which to redirect.

And so I'll take my que from Jesus and Francis and follow a passion for caring about the lives of the downtrodden, including Palestinians.

But you make a good argument why Israel should not follow its passionate reaction to rockets by responding in the way it does.

 

[SolomonVII]

The whole point of war is to be protecting your citizens from attack. If the Gazans did the same thing then there wouldn't be any deaths at all, but considering how often they use their on civilians as human shields, the onus is on them according to the laws of war to protect them from being used in a military context. Once you violate that, the resulant deaths are on those who first violated their status, which is Hamas and the other terror groups.

It is always a good idea to hold those who are responsible for the crimes to account for the crimes that they commit, and the consequent damages that result.

That is why those committing a crime in Western jurisprudence are always held to be responsible for any deaths that come about, even if they were not the ones actually pulling the trigger.
Hamas deliberately put children in harms way in order to make it into our livingrooms and onto our television sets.

 

[SolomonVII]

And so I'll take my que from Jesus and Francis and follow a passion for caring about the lives of the downtrodden, including Palestinians.

You exclude the Israelis.
Survival is not a sin, either for Jesus or Francis.
Israelis are doing what is necessary to survive in a savage world. Jews have been victims too.
It is very poor logic to assume that victimhood equates with innocence. That is being led by one's emotions rather than one's ability to act according to one's ability to reason correctly.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Since the goal of Hamas is to turn Westerners against Israel through manipulating emotions, the biggest collaborators, and the most cowardly, are those Westerners who do just that.

The goal of Hamas is printed on it's charter. The turning western culture against Israel is not a goal because it isn't an end to anything but a means to get there.

I agree with you about the collaborators. The western media is quite complicit, since it gives them the David and Goliath narrative which sells papers and gains them readers. Those in the news industry rarely need the truth because news is far less profitable than sensationalism. They are literally making their money off the misery of others and simply dons the mantel of observer to quite the voices of those who see them for what they are.

 

[WordList]

It is always a good idea to hold those who are responsible for the crimes to account for the crimes that they commit, and the consequent damages that result.

That is why those committing a crime in Western jurisprudence are always held to be responsible for any deaths that come about, even if they were not the ones actually pulling the trigger.
Hamas deliberately put children in harms way in order to make it into our livingrooms and onto our television sets.

The thing is, responsibility isn't a zero sum game.
Hamas shouldn't hide in schools, hospitals, apartment blocks.
Israel should bomb those places when they do.

Though Israel also has an earlier culpability: by creating a situation where the people of gaza are so seriously oppressed and de powered in the first place, so that there they lack better options for response.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Pardon me for caring about Palestinian lives, including the lives of Palestinian Christians. If that's emotional, count me in.

It's not about caring for people lives. It's placing responsibility where it lies. People own what they allow to happen in their name.

 

[WordList]

It's not about caring for people lives. It's placing responsibility where it lies.

For what value of "it"?

Hamas and Israel are both responsible for what happens.

That Hamas should not use "human shields" doesn't make it okay for Israel to do what it does.

 

[WordList]

The goal of Hamas is printed on it's charter. The turning western culture against Israel is not a goal because it isn't an end to anything but a means to get there.

I agree with you about the collaborators. The western media is quite complicit, since it gives them the David and Goliath narrative which sells papers and gains them readers. Those in the news industry rarely need the truth because news is far less profitable than sensationalism. They are literally making their money off the misery of others and simply dons the mantel of observer to quite the voices of those who see them for what they are.

"How dare most of the free world tell the narrative differently to the American religious right".

 

[WordList]

You exclude the Israelis.

Not mentioning is not excluding.
Israeli lives matter. However, the reality is that Isaeli lives are doing pretty well, both in terms of getting to live them and standard of living.

Survival is not a sin, either for Jesus or Francis.
Israelis are doing what is necessary to survive in a savage world.

Hamas rockets kill less Israelis than Israeli owned cars do.

 

[SolomonVII]

The goal of Hamas is printed on it's charter. The turning western culture against Israel is not a goal because it isn't an end to anything but a means to get there.

I agree with you about the collaborators. The western media is quite complicit, since it gives them the David and Goliath narrative which sells papers and gains them readers. Those in the news industry rarely need the truth because news is far less profitable than sensationalism. They are literally making their money off the misery of others and simply dons the mantel of observer to quite the voices of those who see them for what they are.

Yes.
To be clear, terrorism is not the goal of Hamas. Destruction of the Jewish state of Israel is the goal that defines who Hamas is.
Terrorism is a means to that end. Terrorism is a method that has as its goal the turning of democratic populations against their elected governments.

And that is the means to the ends for Hamas to succeed in its goal of destroying the Jewish state of Israel.

 

[WordList]

It is very poor logic to assume that victimhood equates with innocence.

It would be, but I didn't.

 

[WordList]

Yes.
To be clear, terrorism is not the goal of Hamas. Destruction of the Jewish state of Israel is the goal that defines who Hamas is.
Terrorism is a means to that end. Terrorism is a method that has as its goal the turning of democratic populations against their elected governments.

And that is the means to the ends for Hamas to succeed in its goal of destroying the Jewish state of Israel.

And there are Jews, and Americans, for whom the goal is the destruction of the Palestinian state.

Your point?

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Yes.
To be clear, terrorism is not the goal of Hamas. Destruction of the Jewish state of Israel is the goal that defines who Hamas is.
Terrorism is a means to that end. Terrorism is a method that has as its goal the turning of democratic populations against their elected governments.

And that is the means to the ends for Hamas to succeed in its goal of destroying the Jewish state of Israel.

I would think terrorism is a means to ward a country off from helping Israel, but the introduction of terrorism into any new country locks that country into the fight. Any faltering of that country is considered weakness in the eyes of the terrorist so, if Israel falls the next target will be that country.

It tends to start off a catch-22 loop that never ends.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

"How dare most of the free world tell the narrative differently to the American religious right".

It's not the free world that tells anyone in America anything. I've been outside the country and know well that news shown to the Americans is filtered. I was in Korea, when I was in the military and saw the remnants of a student rally put down by the Government. Armed forces radio didn't cover it and when i talked to my family back in the states that weekend, none here knew anything about it.

I don't differentiate Americans from Americans when I talk about America. Right, left, up, down or sideways we all need to be told the truth and also we all need to be able to handle it when it comes. That's the issue with America today. So many factions are so committed to their own individual ideals that anything spoken to the contrary is considered a lie, outright. But that's our own fault.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

For what value of "it"?

Hamas and Israel are both responsible for what happens.

That Hamas should not use "human shields" doesn't make it okay for Israel to do what it does.

In a tit for tat reality the tat would not be if not for the tit. Morale equivalency is a fashionable facade when administered from the sidelines.

 

[WordList]

In a tit for tat reality the tat would not be if not for the tit. Morale equivalency is a fashionable facade when administered from the sidelines.

Shouting "moral equivalence" seems to have become the fashionable alternative to making an argument lately.

As to the idea that one cannot condemn evil unless one is involved in the conflict; that's laughable (not to mention inconsistent when it's applied one way around only).

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Shouting "moral equivalence" seems to have become the fashionable alternative to making an argument lately.

If the shoe fits the person displaying it, then there is no argument just a denial of the fact. Please don't go down this red herring highway the bridges don't support the weight. Thank you.

 

[MikeK]

Shouting "moral equivalence" seems to have become the fashionable alternative to making an argument lately.

As to the idea that one cannot condemn evil unless one is involved in the conflict; that's laughable (not to mention inconsistent when it's applied one way around only).

Indeed. As I see it there are two options; we can let the truths handed down through Christ's Church guide us, or we can choose worldly wisdom.

 

[SolomonVII]

And there are Jews, and Americans, for whom the goal is the destruction of the Palestinian state.

Your point?

That is not true in any significant way.
If Americans or Israelis wanted to destroy the Palestinian state, the Palestinian state would be destroyed by now.
Hamas has as its stated goal the destruction of Israel. Hamas wins elections among the Palestinian people, and for that reason, no elections have been held on the West Bank for more than a few elections cycles now.

The will of the Palestinian people is to the destruction of Israel. The reason that they do not is lack of power to do so. the reason that Palestinians have not been driven out is that there is no will on behalf of Israel or America to do so.

There is no authentic argument from moral equivalence to be made here.