Democrats - bold enough to get away with anything and everything without consequences.

[MikeK]

Anyone wondering about proportiinate response and morality would be wise to read up on Just War Doctrine. Responding to an attack that kill 10 people by killing 250 is not compatible with Catholic moral teaching. Similarily, every effort must be taken to protect civilian populations from military strikes. Israel has a well established, state-of-the-art military and Intel machine. They do not have to respond to individual attackers with bombs that destroy entire buildings or city blocks, they choose to. The idea that Israel should ramp up killing until the threat no longer exists is nonsense and is also a violation of the moral teachings of Christ's Church.

 

[SolomonVII]

Collateral damage is inevitable when terrorists walk among the civilians and they store missiles in tunnels right under schools, mosques, residences etc.

That is the deliberate strategy of groups like Hamas. They fight their wars through the Western media, and stirring up emotions against Israel. There is nothing like dead children to stir up our emotions.
That is ironic enough, given the millions of our own we kill through abortion, but having their own die pleases the Hamas leadership very much, because it works.

 

[LoAmmi]

Removing.

 

[pdudgeon]

Collateral damage is inevitable when terrorists walk among the civilians and they store missiles in tunnels right under schools, mosques, residences etc.

inevitable, but not excusable. two wrongs have never, ever made one right.

 

[MikeK]

inevitable, but not excusable. two wrongs have never, ever made one right.

I don't even think its's inevitable. As soon as rockets or mortars take flight, the Israeli Military knows where they originated. They have the capability to respond with overwhelming, precision force to get the bad guy.

Immagine for a momment that you personally have the ability to call in airstrikes. You are in your home on day when it becomes clear that a man in a house 5 blocks away is taking ocasional shots at houses on your block with a rifle. This is terrible, while his shots are erratic, he could kill someone. Do you call the police, knowing that they will swarm the neighborhood, locate the man, and apprehend or kill him (with a certain amount of danger to them) or do you call in an airstrike, destroying his block and the innocent people who live there but also stopping the attack?

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Democrats - bold enough to get away with anything and everything without consequences.

That's an interesting concept since it's the cowardly Republicans in congress who can't construct a combined front against anything the Dems have put up. It's like the argument the Democrats put up about not being able to pass more than they did the first two years of President Obama's first term.

They were handed an overwhelming majority in both houses of congress but they didn't give us universal health care. They didn't pass any legislation to support gay marriage and that was due to The Republicans somehow standing in their way when the Dems didn't need a single Republican vote for anything. If they did the ACA would have never passed.

 

[SolomonVII]

I don't even think its's inevitable. As soon as rockets or mortars take flight, the Israeli Military knows where they originated. They have the capability to respond with overwhelming, precision force to get the bad guy.

Immagine for a momment .....

That does take an incredible amount of immagination to believe that the Israelis have such a mmagical capability to do that.

 

[classicalhero]

Anyone wondering about proportiinate response and morality would be wise to read up on Just War Doctrine. Responding to an attack that kill 10 people by killing 250 is not compatible with Catholic moral teaching. Similarily, every effort must be taken to protect civilian populations from military strikes. Israel has a well established, state-of-the-art military and Intel machine. They do not have to respond to individual attackers with bombs that destroy entire buildings or city blocks, they choose to. The idea that Israel should ramp up killing until the threat no longer exists is nonsense and is also a violation of the moral teachings of Christ's Church.

What you are ignoring is also the potential threat available. Every rocket fired has a potential to kill tens of people and if they hit the right area it could be over the hundreds. You have to respond to every threat the same way whether or not they kill people. The fact that over 4,000 rockets and mortars were fired from Gaza shows that in retaliation Israel was rather restrained in their response since all those rockets could have done a lot more damage, and this doesn't include rockets that fell in the Gaza Strip, killing who knows how many people? The fact of the matter is that you respond to military attack with military force. The fact that so few people were killed is a testament to the skill of the IDF and the fact of the matter is most were terrorists shows that again.

How many people die is entirely up to Hamas and the other terrorist groups. No one has died from Israeli attacks when Israel has no need to defend itself.

 

[WordList]

What you are ignoring is also the potential threat available. Every rocket fired has a potential to kill tens of people and if they hit the right area it could be over the hundreds. You have to respond to every threat the same way whether or not they kill people. The fact that over 4,000 rockets and mortars were fired from Gaza shows that in retaliation Israel was rather restrained in their response since all those rockets could have done a lot more damage, and this doesn't include rockets that fell in the Gaza Strip, killing who knows how many people? The fact of the matter is that you respond to military attack with military force. The fact that so few people were killed is a testament to the skill of the IDF and the fact of the matter is most were terrorists shows that again.

How many people die is entirely up to Hamas and the other terrorist groups. No one has died from Israeli attacks when Israel has no need to defend itself.

Sounds like the terrorist who hijacks a plane and says "if you don't give us what you want, you're responsible for the consequences".

If you start bombing schools, homes and hospitals you are responsible for the consequences of what you do.

The rockets from Hamas do little damage, and few are killed. They are metaphorically stone throwing compared to Israel's response. In the medium to long term responding with such excessive force doesn't do anything to solve the problem - it just increases the sense of injustice and the hate that motivates people to send the rockets in the first place. Gaza cannot be solved by military force - unless one is willing to accept the "solution" of genocide.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

The rockets from Hamas do little damage, and few are killed. They are metaphorically stone throwing compared to Israel's response. In the medium to long term responding with such excessive force doesn't do anything to solve the problem - it just increases the sense of injustice and the hate that motivates people to send the rockets in the first place. Gaza cannot be solved by military force - unless one is willing to accept the "solution" of genocide.

Sorry, but I don't understand the logic in someone who hasn't experienced something condemning the responses of those who have as being unjust.

If someone was firing rockets into my back yard, even though they may or may not hit anything is something between the persons firing them and me. They are not targeting your loved ones. I would use the appropriate channels, but if all else failed I would make them quite aware that continuing would hurt them far more than it would me. If the lives of my family were put in danger I would take them out to the last man.
There is no ethical standards to survival. When someone proclaims their intent to wipe me and mine off the face of the Earth, then it is over. What happens is on them for being the ones who proclaimed what they did.

Fire it up boys, We are going to war.

I'm not into giving people the time to plan my demise justso I can have "He was so diplomatic" engraved on my tombstone.

 

[MikeK]

Sorry, but I don't understand the logic in someone who hasn't experienced something condemning the responses of those who have as being unjust.

If someone was firing rockets into my back yard, even though they may or may not hit anything is something between the persons firing them and me. They are not targeting your loved ones. I would use the appropriate channels, but if all else failed I would make them quite aware that continuing would hurt them far more than it would me. If the lives of my family were put in danger I would take them out to the last man.
There is no ethical standards to survival. When someone proclaims their intent to wipe me and mine off the face of the Earth, then it is over. What happens is on them for being the ones who proclaimed what they did.

Fire it up boys, We are going to war.

I'm not into giving people the time to plan my demise justso I can have "He was so diplomatic" engraved on my tombstone.

You can do as you will. I will do my best to follow the truths regarding morality of activities in war handed down through Christ's one Church.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

You can do as you will. I will do my best to follow the truths regarding morality of activities in war handed down through Christ's one Church.

The truths of your morality have not been tested by the burdens of reality. You claim that if the jews are less mean in their reprisals that it would somehow change their attackers attitudes. This has been tried before so many times, by so many people and has always ended up paying for it in lives.

If you want to hold up religious philosophy against the the lives of those who look up to you for protection, at least do me this one favor. Pick up a spade and bury them yourself so you can see face to face what your handiwork has wroght.

 

[classicalhero]

You can do as you will. I will do my best to follow the truths regarding morality of activities in war handed down through Christ's one Church.

The whole point of war is to be protecting your citizens from attack. If the Gazans did the same thing then there wouldn't be any deaths at all, but considering how often they use their on civilians as human shields, the onus is on them according to the laws of war to protect them from being used in a military context. Once you violate that, the resulant deaths are on those who first violated their status, which is Hamas and the other terror groups.

 

[WordList]

The whole point of war is to be protecting your citizens from attack. If the Gazans did the same thing then there wouldn't be any deaths at all, but considering how often they use their on civilians as human shields, the onus is on them according to the laws of war to protect them from being used in a military context. Once you violate that, the resulant deaths are on those who first violated their status, which is Hamas and the other terror groups.

That's not the position of the church, is it? Nor is it a logical one.

Nor, iirc, is Israel's bombing of civilian targets within the rules of war.

As to protecting its citizens, well, it isn't doing that. While that's necessary for the response to be just, it isn't sufficient.

 

[MikeK]

The whole point of war is to be protecting your citizens from attack. If the Gazans did the same thing then there wouldn't be any deaths at all, but considering how often they use their on civilians as human shields, the onus is on them according to the laws of war to protect them from being used in a military context. Once you violate that, the resulant deaths are on those who first violated their status, which is Hamas and the other terror groups.

Your statement directly contradicts Catholic moral theology in this safe haven forum, and you agreed to follow the rules of this forum when you signed up. Both Hamas and Israel should be called upon to conduct themselves morally and failures by one side do not excuse failures by the other. Further, human shields don't work when you are being hunted down by special operations troops with rifles rather than less precise rockets and bombs.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Your statement directly contradicts Catholic moral theology in this safe haven forum, and you agreed to follow the rules of this forum when you signed up. Both Hamas and Israel should be called upon to conduct themselves morally and failures by one side do not excuse failures by the other. Further, human shields don't work when you are being hunted down by special operations troops with rifles rather than less precise rockets and bombs.

The trouble with ideology is that those who have them aren't effected by the outcome so they continue to have them in the safety of distance. They don't have to see the effects nor are they effected personally by them. Unfortunately, those who do pay the price for the convictions of others aren't that luck, but since they are simply the test subject of the idealist, they are expendable.

 

[MikeK]

Rather the opposite, none are expendable. It is appropriate to use military force to defend against an aggressor and to respond proportionately to violence while taking pains to keep collateral damage to a minimum. We don't blow up a neighboring block full of houses because one man is shooting at us. We, assuming some risk ourselves, go after the individual with the gun.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Rather the opposite, none are expendable. It is appropriate to use military force to defend against an aggressor and to respond proportionately to violence while taking pains to keep collateral damage to a minimum. We don't blow up a neighboring block full of houses because one man is shooting at us. We, assuming some risk ourselves, go after the individual with the gun.

We don't have people shooting rockets arbitrarily into towns and villages with no concern for who it there. The analogy you are using is false. What we do over here is appropriate for what we are dealing with.

You don't change the attitudes of people who harbor criminals by not taking justice to them. You make it so that they pay a high enough price for harboring these criminals that they would push them out of their safe zones.
This is what is happening over there and it is why I've taken the cant I have with dealing with you.

You simply take this as a straight up tit for tat fight and tried to use a blanket response to a situation that is far more complicated than you are aware of. The collateral damage is justified by the lack of concern those harboring these criminals have for what these criminals are doing.
By their lack of concern they are facilitating and conspiring with these criminals in their actions. Your ideals are well placed, but not well rooted in the realities that are occurring, even today over there.

 

[SolomonVII]

We don't have people shooting rockets arbitrarily into towns and villages with no concern for who it there. The analogy you are using is false. What we do over here is appropriate for what we are dealing with.

You don't change the attitudes of people who harbor criminals by not taking justice to them. You make it so that they pay a high enough price for harboring these criminals that they would push them out of their safe zones.
This is what is happening over there and it is why I've taken the cant I have with dealing with you.

You simply take this as a straight up tit for tat fight and tried to use a blanket response to a situation that is far more complicated than you are aware of. The collateral damage is justified by the lack of concern those harboring these criminals have for what these criminals are doing.
By their lack of concern they are facilitating and conspiring with these criminals in their actions. Your ideals are well placed, but not well rooted in the realities that are occurring, even today over there.

Since the goal of Hamas is to turn Westerners against Israel through manipulating emotions, the biggest collaborators, and the most cowardly, are those Westerners who do just that.

 

[WordList]

Since the goal of Hamas is to turn Westerners against Israel through manipulating emotions, the biggest collaborators, and the most cowardly, are those Westerners who do just that.

Pardon me for caring about Palestinian lives, including the lives of Palestinian Christians. If that's emotional, count me in.