Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

[GenemZ]

Even a dog, who is hardly considered self-aware, who is credited with being responsive instinctively and according to programming, makes decisions. How are we, who at least have self-awareness and unlike the dog are made in the image of God, not making decisions?

We never claim to not be making decisions although we admit to all sorts of causes, influences and instincts, internal and external stimuli, habits etc etc, without considering God in the mix. Even when we can pretty reliably predict what someone's choices will be, we do not say they don't choose, even though we something of the causes behind their choice. So why, if we admit God as the originator of all those influences etc, does the story somehow become, "we are not deciding"?

Calvinists have made the decision to believe they can not make a decision.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Calvinists have made the decision to believe they can not make a decision.

not true you have misrepresented what they believe just the same as many misrepresent what Arminianism teaches.

 

[GenemZ]

not true you have misrepresented what they believe just the same as many misrepresent what Arminianism teaches.

They did not make a decision "freely" according to Irresistible grace.

Its their choice of words. Irresistible means?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

They did not make a decision "freely" according to Irresistible grace.

Its their choice of words. Irresistible means?

The doctrine of irresistible grace means that God is sovereign and can conquer all resistance when he wills. “He does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand!” (Daniel 4:35). “Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases” (Psalm 115:3). When God undertakes to fulfill his sovereign purpose, no one can successfully resist him. “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2). piper

hope this helps !!!

 

[Mark Quayle]

God gave man's soul volition and reasoning ability. Animal souls only have instinct. Angels (who are also called " sons of God") were also created in his image. Angels and man both have been granted volition and the ability to reason.

Our volition is sovereign in regards to our attitude towards God.

Even though its God's desire that all believe? God must honor the sovereignty of the souls of those who wish to reject Him.

Where does Scripture say that angels were created in his image? Do you have evidence that our volition is sovereign in regards to our attitude towards God? Or maybe I should ask, exactly what do you mean by that? (So far the only thing I've seen proffered on here in lieu of evidence is the fact that God requires decisions to be made). You don't here even differentiate between the dead in their sins and the regenerate in the matter, though the Bible certainly does.

(By the way, according to some, some of the gorillas and chimps who have limited sign language learning have "spelled out" reasons for this and that --evidence they do have limited reasoning capacity. They certainly do seem to have a sense of humor and recognition of irony.)

We are made, "for a little while lower than the angels". They are not the same kind of beings that we are. They will not become the Bride of Christ.

"God must honor the sovereignty of souls..." sounds like humanly-derived reasoning to me. I don't find that in Scripture.

 

[Mark Quayle]

They did not make a decision "freely" according to Irresistible grace.

Its their choice of words. Irresistible means?

Irresistible Grace is a reference to regeneration: When God has made a person alive, they will not reject him. This is not forcing. They make decisions without the slavery to sin they had before. This does not mean they possess their own little sovereignty.

It galls me that we insist on the ability to choose apart from Christ. Not only does this oppose him and his grace, it is ludicrous on its face. Do we already not have enough experience to show that our decisions are flips of our mind at best? We don't know what we are doing, what we are choosing, where our choices will lead, nor how to stick by our own word. "Without me, you can do nothing" is not hyperbole.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Calvinists have made the decision to believe they can not make a decision.

You misrepresent Calvinism. Read John Calvin. He says no such thing, I know many many Calvinists, and NONE of them believe we don't decide. They even believe their dogs decide.

 

[renniks]

Even a dog, who is hardly considered self-aware, who is credited with being responsive instinctively and according to programming, makes decisions. How are we, who at least have self-awareness and unlike the dog are made in the image of God, not making decisions?

We never claim to not be making decisions although we admit to all sorts of causes, influences and instincts, internal and external stimuli, habits etc etc, without considering God in the mix. Even when we can pretty reliably predict what someone's choices will be, we do not say they don't choose, even though we something of the causes behind their choice. So why, if we admit God as the originator of all those influences etc, does the story somehow become, "we are not deciding"?

Smoke and mirrors, Mark, smoke and mirrors.
If God determines everything, which is the basis of Calvinism, in what sense is any decision yours?
It makes history an unbroken chain of causation, with God being the puppet master behind the curtain.

 

[GenemZ]

The doctrine of irresistible grace means that God is sovereign and can conquer all resistance when he wills. “He does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand!” (Daniel 4:35). “Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases” (Psalm 115:3). When God undertakes to fulfill his sovereign purpose, no one can successfully resist him. “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2). piper

hope this helps !!!

No one can resist his judgement!

That statement as you read it means God tossed Satan out because God felt like it. That if God persisted, Satan would now be with the elect angels.

To me its a sick perspective about God's nature, and reveals a deficiency in understanding what the passage is dealing with. Its like taking... "if your eye offends you, pluck it out." Its cheap theology and superficial dogmatism to me.

 

[renniks]

You misrepresent Calvinism. Read John Calvin. He says no such thing, I know many many Calvinists, and NONE of them believe we don't decide. They even believe their dogs decide.

John Calvin:
*** “Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.”[1]
* “Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.”[2]

“The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted.”[3]

 

[Der Alte]

The doctrine of irresistible grace means that God is sovereign and can conquer all resistance when he wills. “He does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand!” (Daniel 4:35). “Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases” (Psalm 115:3). When God undertakes to fulfill his sovereign purpose, no one can successfully resist him. “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2). piper
hope this helps !!!

Is this what you believe or what some group believes that you disagree with?
When I first heard the Calvinist proof text about a leopard not being able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18. And as I read further in this chapter I found another passage, which refutes several tenets of Calvinism.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said “I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.”

 

[GenemZ]

Where does Scripture say that angels were created in his image?

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to
present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came
among them." Job 1:6​

Just like Adam was called the son of God!

the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of
Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." Luke 3:37-38
​

grace and peace......

 

[Mark Quayle]

For thousands of years before the Church age began.. Many millions of souls believed in the Lord God of Israel. These souls God knew would believe. But, they were not chosen IN Christ before the foundations of the earth. For,as Eve was in Adam before she was revealed? We, as the "bride of Christ" are now in Him, awaiting to be revealed in the resurrection of the Church!

That is what we were predestined for. Not to believe. But, because God chose us out of all He knows would believe to be the Bride of His beloved Son.

Its nothing to be ashamed of. For the likes of Moses and Isaiah will be filled with unspeakable joy with the type of Resurrection body they will receive. Their bodies will not be just like the body the Lord now is manifesting the fullness of God with. We who were chosen IN Him? We alone will have such a glorious body....

What makes you think they were not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the earth? Is there only one Gospel, or do you know of two ways to the Father? There has only ever been one Gospel. They most certainly were chosen.

God did not make us all fallen and then consider whether to have mercy on some, deciding according to some factor outside of his control. He made us all fallen so that he could have mercy on some. --In fact, so that he could have mercy on those he chose by his own counsel and for his own purposes. Predestination does not depend on the free will of the dead, but on God alone.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to
present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came
among them." Job 1:6​

Just like Adam was called the son of God!

the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of
Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." Luke 3:37-38
​

grace and peace......

so you think angels were created in Gods image just like man ?

 

[GenemZ]

What makes you think they were not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the earth? Is there only one Gospel, or do you know of two ways to the Father? There has only ever been one Gospel. They most certainly were chosen.

God did not make us all fallen and then consider whether to have mercy on some, deciding according to some factor outside of his control. He made us all fallen so that he could have mercy on some. --In fact, so that he could have mercy on those he chose by his own counsel and for his own purposes. Predestination does not depend on the free will of the dead, but on God alone.

(Among other things) .. Because when it says we are a new creation in Christ?

The Greek wording means, "a new creation that never existed before." "A new thing."

Its why we are called a "new" creation. OT saints were not this new creation we have been made to become.

Its new like the atomic bomb was a revolutionary new kind of weapon in warfare. Nothing existed like it before it was created.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Mark Quayle

Why are you not addressing 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and Matthew 23:37?

 

[i submitted to the Lord]

Okay. Fair enough. Hopefully you will just simply heed what the Word says plainly and not try to re-write God's Word (in some dead language nobody knows) because you and others don't like it.

Why all this back and forth on these and other topics? I write to you because i agree with you on so many things, but why wrestle with so many people that just don't see things as you do. Have you ever persuaded anybody? Maybe you have, but all I've seen so far is struggle. They believe what they want to believe and are able to see, and so do we. Are we supposed to be trying to debate so often rather than attempt to correct two times at the most? I just don't understand. All I see in these forums is debate, debate, debate. Obfuscations, denials, mutual accusations. Where is the true edification? Again, i wrote to you because i agree with your view on so many things, but I don't understand this willingness to debate...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why all this back and forth on these and other topics? I write to you because i agree with you on so many things, but why wrestle with so many people that just don't see things as you do. Have you ever persuaded anybody? Maybe you have, but all I've seen so far is struggle. They believe what they want to believe and are able to see, and so do we. Are we supposed to be trying to debate so often rather than attempt to correct two times at the most? I just don't understand. All I see in these forums is debate, debate, debate. Obfuscations, denials, mutual accusations. Where is the true edification? Again, i wrote to you because i agree with your view on so many things, but I don't understand this willingness to debate...

Many times I do leave thread discussions, and or do not endlessly debate with a person on certain topics. In my experience in talking on Christian forums for about 10 years, I believe I have learned to dig deeper in God's Word by my opponents. Sometimes a question is asked that I normally would not have considered, and it takes you down an interesting path in God's Word. My opponents may not always agree with me, but I do learn to do my homework to defend the truth for others to see. For in a sea of error, somebody has to be a light of Christ to shine the truth like a lighthouse.

“For he powerfully refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.” (Acts of the Apostles 18:28) (BLB).

2 “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.” (2 Timothy 4:2-5).​

As for your question:

Have I convinced anyone?

Only the Lord knows which believers have been helped by what I have written. But I do recall a few times convincing folks on rare occasion. In other cases, I have offered biblical data that was extremely helpful to others and they were appreciative for it. So while you may see mostly debate, I keep in the fight of fighting the good fight of faith so that some other believer who is seeking for the truth will by some chance come across this forum and they will be helped in some way by what I had written with God's Word.

 

[GenemZ]

Why all this back and forth on these and other topics? I write to you because i agree with you on so many things, but why wrestle with so many people that just don't see things as you do. Have you ever persuaded anybody?.

To persuade others is one thing. Edifying others by seeing someone taking the same stand as they think also counts. That is... if its truth.

 

[GenemZ]

so you think angels were created in Gods image just like man ?

Not quite "just like" man.

For man is soul. Angels are spirit.

Yet, both creations are the only ones that have rational reasoning ability, and volition. Created in God's image. Like father like son. They are called "sons of God."

You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him
with glory and honor." Heb 2:17​

Now, if we know man was created in God's image lower than angels? Angels must be! For angels are an even higher creation than man is at this time.

Angels are spirit. So, definitely created in God's image.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship
the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Jn 4:23-24​

grace and peace.......