Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

[Mark Quayle]

@Mark Quayle

Why are you not addressing 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and Matthew 23:37?

My apologies. What is it about those two verses that I should have addressed? Do you have a post # for me to see what you said about them?

 

[Mark Quayle]

(Among other things) .. Because when it says we are a new creation in Christ?

The Greek wording means, "a new creation that never existed before." "A new thing."

Its why we are called a "new" creation. OT saints were not this new creation we have been made to become.

Its new like the atomic bomb was a revolutionary new kind of weapon in warfare. Nothing existed like it before it was created.

New, like it never existed before yes. Revolutionary, yes. So let's see, going by that logic, if let's say, Steven in the NT was a new creation, how are we a new creation? I mean, why do you draw the line at OT/NT?

We are each reborn into a new creation --not of the old order of death, slavery to sin. Revolutionary, yes. My newfound freedom in Christ never existed before, yes. For me, all things are become new because of regeneration.

 

[GenemZ]

New, like it never existed before yes. Revolutionary, yes. So let's see, going by that logic, if let's say, Steven in the NT was a new creation, how are we a new creation? I mean, why do you draw the line at OT/NT?

Because the OT saints were never made to become temples of the Holy Spirit. Instead, the Holy Spirit resided in the Temple building only. Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?

OT saints never had that. That is why they had to be restrained by being under the Law. For they did not have the indwelling presence to restrain their sin natures. We do! We are a new creation in Christ. That is why we are not under the Law if we are being led of the Spirit.

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being
transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the
Lord, who is the Spirit." - 2 Cor 3:18​

We can become transformed into the image of the Lord if we take the path to mature in Christ. OT saints never even had that thought given to them.

We have also been given a special grace by means of the Spirit taking up residence in us!

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not
see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and
glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation
of your souls.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that
was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying
to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them
was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories
that would follow." 1 Pet 1:8-10​

We have received abilities that certain OT prophets longed to have. We can experience glories they never had given them...Only the Bride is to receive this grace ability and honor.

Another thing sets us apart from the OT saint.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved if we sin But, he will never leave us nor forsake us, because of the efficacy of the Cross. The few OT saints who were given enabling power for a task by the Spirit could have the Spirit taken from them. We can't...


We are a new creation. Not everyone learns enough sound doctrine to exploit its benefits.

grace and peace.......

 

[Mark Quayle]

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to
present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came
among them." Job 1:6​

Just like Adam was called the son of God!

the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of
Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." Luke 3:37-38
​

grace and peace......

You may be pleased to know that John Calvin himself is said to have concluded (from one verse alone, at that --Matthew 22:30) that Angels were also made in the image of God.

God made Adam directly, as opposed to Adam being the result of the union of a man and woman. That in itself is no indication that Adam was made in the image of God. The reason we know he was made in the image of God is that the Bible says so: "And God created man in His image..." Gen 1:27

God also made the angels directly, and they are spirit beings. The term Sons of God merely appears to be referring to the fact that they have no other heritage or ancestry. I have also heard the notion that "Sons of God" can refer merely to a relationship of obedience or submission to God, and not specifically be referring to offspring.

Whatever, I see no reason to conclude that angels are made in God's image --at least, certainly not in the same way or to the same extent as man is. Nor does the Bible say that they were.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because the OT saints were never made to become temples of the Holy Spirit. Instead, the Holy Spirit resided in the Temple building only. Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?

OT saints never had that. That is why they had to be restrained by being under the Law. For they did not have the indwelling presence to restrain their sin natures. We do! We are a new creation in Christ. That is why we are not under the Law if we are being led of the Spirit.

"...take not your Holy Spirit from me." (David, OT)

Where did God dwell before there was a temple or tabernacle?

He made a marked point concerning his coming dwelling place by his presence in the Holy of Holies. This by no means implies that he was not also indwelling the elect regenerated back then. There has only ever been one Gospel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My apologies. What is it about those two verses that I should have addressed? Do you have a post # for me to see what you said about them?

Check out Post #110, and Post #114.

In addition, what do you make of Deuteronomy 30:19?

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” (Deuteronomy 30:19).

God sets before Israel life and death, and He desires them to choose life so that they may live. If the god of Calvinism was true, such a statement would not be in our Bibles.

Furthermore, what do you make of Jonah chapter 3?
Jonah preaches that the city of Nineveh is going to be overthrown in 40 days.
Yet, that did not happen because the people sought forgiveness with God, and they forsaken their evil or wicked ways. As a result of the Ninevites' forsaking their evil ways, God then turned away from the wrath or judgment He was going to originally bring upon them. It wasn't about God electing them to damnation. The Ninevites changed their situation away from God's wrath by following God's instructions. The Ninevites were not forced against their will here to repent because they were warned that they would be destroyed in 40 days.

On top of that, what do you make of all the times God has shown forth His wrath against sin or wicked people? In fact, Psalms 7:11 says, “God is angry with the wicked every day.” Why would God be angry if He could just click His fingers and make them saved so as to be good people (i.e. to be the elect)?

I got even one more. Revelation 22:17.

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” (Revelation 22:17).

Please take notice that the bride (the church) is calling the reader to come. This means the reader is not a part of the bride yet, and they need to take action by coming forth. Such a statement does not sound like Calvinism. The verse also says that whosoever will take of the water of life FREELY. This means that they have a will that is free to take of the water of life. They are not being zapped to be a certain way against their will here. In Calvinism: There is no such thing as taking of the water of life freely. One is forced and or changed against their own will. They are zapped to be a slave to take of the water of life. There is no freely involved at all in Calvinism.

This is why Calvinism does not make a lick of sense if a person just reads and believes their Bible plainly. I believe that a person only believes in Calvinism because they are first reading Calvinism books, articles, or by hearing Calvinistic preachers, etc. instead of reading the Bible (and asking God for the understanding); For there is no way a person can walk away from reading the Bible (without any Calvinistic influence) and draw the conclusion of Calvinism. It's just not gonna happen. It's an outside set of beliefs that is clearly being inserted into the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"...take not your Holy Spirit from me." (David, OT)

Where did God dwell before there was a temple or tabernacle?

He made a marked point concerning his coming dwelling place by his presence in the Holy of Holies. This by no means implies that he was not also indwelling the elect regenerated back then. There has only ever been one Gospel.

Now, why would David plead for forgiveness and or to not take His Holy Spirit from king David if David was one of the Elect? Why would he bother? In the world of Calvinism: God will decide whether or not He is forgiven, and God will forever force His Spirit upon David. David would never be in fear of the Spirit being taken away from Him, if King David was a Calvinist. This is why Calvinism is highly illogical. It just doesn't fit what we read in Scripture.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Now, why would David plead for forgiveness and or to not take His Holy Spirit from king David if David was one of the Elect? Why would he bother? In the world of Calvinism: God will decide whether or not He is forgiven, and God will forever force His Spirit upon David. David would never be in fear of the Spirit being taken away from Him, if King David was a Calvinist. This is why Calvinism is highly illogical. It just doesn't fit what we read in Scripture.

It shows he was repentant and grieved over his sin and was pleading with God for forgiveness. Its irrelevant whether or not a person is an Arminian, Calvinist, Lutheran, Baptist, Evangelical etc.......

David is writing from his heart not a from a theological position.

IMHO your question is a fallacious one at best.

FYI- there are better passages than this example to counter calvinism than the example you just gave us.

hope this helps !!!

 

[i submitted to the Lord]

Many times I do leave thread discussions, and or do not endlessly debate with a person on certain topics. In my experience in talking on Christian forums for about 10 years, I believe I have learned to dig deeper in God's Word by my opponents. Sometimes a question is asked that I normally would not have considered, and it takes you down an interesting path in God's Word. My opponents may not always agree with me, but I do learn to do my homework to defend the truth for others to see. For in a sea of error, somebody has to be a light of Christ to shine the truth like a lighthouse.

“For he powerfully refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.” (Acts of the Apostles 18:28) (BLB).

2 “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.” (2 Timothy 4:2-5).​

As for your question:

Have I convinced anyone?

Only the Lord knows which believers have been helped by what I have written. But I do recall a few times convincing folks on rare occasion. In other cases, I have offered biblical data that was extremely helpful to others and they were appreciative for it. So while you may see mostly debate, I keep in the fight of fighting the good fight of faith so that some other believer who is seeking for the truth will by some chance come across this forum and they will be helped in some way by what I had written with God's Word.

Thank you for your reply.

Clearly, your debates have allowed me to see what you believe, with which i agree in many ways. Although I can't say all, because i haven't read all you've written in these forums. And that has been good on one hand. But on the other, I see that many others do not agree and while you believe to be of light by exposing what you believe to be true, they usually don't believe so. They consider you in error, not in truth. You are taken to be the one twisting the Scriptures and being nonsensical, while you may believe the same regarding them.

So, my point is: Those who agree with you, already do so because they already have it IN them to agree. That is, they have a similar knowledge to yours. Like I do. But those who don't, largely dig in their heels and resist what you say, because that is what is IN them.

There may be some, how many, I don't know, who are yet indecisive about a position, and you arguments or the other side's arguments may help them tilt to either way, or even come up with a third way. But in the meantime, what I've witnessed so far that mostly comes out from these debates, is not edification. But strife and contention. I've seen former fellowships torn apart by this desire to show others how wrong they are about something, even if they agree on other things. And this division, this contention, I don't think that's really the fight we are called to fight. I think that fight is mostly about our sanctification, which i understand you are doing and also think you know how fraught it is with obstacles and opposition. For there are many things within us that must be shone under the light and removed from our hearts. Things such as the desire to be right, the holding fast to past, still fleshly paradigms that obfuscate and cloud our understanding of Scripture and many more things. Things that are necessary to fully cast out from our hearts to truly grow in perfection in Christ.

Now, I don't deny that it is important to defend and stand for what one knows is true, good and correct just as Christ did and as Paul did. But one must be very, very careful not to fall into the devil's traps, which are many and constantly present, while we do that. Remember, what others believe to be true, it is so to them, because there is something IN them (and that in effect says something about "free" will, is it really free, or is it tilted someway?) that compels them to believe so. Just like there is something in us that allow us to see what we see and believe in it. Who will truly be in God, after all of this? Because certainly not every belief alligns with His word, no matter how strongly one holds it. Well, God knows who are His'.

But i also believe the following is true regarding the wisdom that is earthly vs. the wisdom that comes from above:
"Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is , there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace."
James 3:13‭-‬18 KJVAAE

It's noteworthy now how it says: "easy to be entreated," that is, good to persuade or as HELPS word studies states, "its easy to come to terms with because already willing" It does not require a constant back and forth. The wisdom that comes from above is easy to be entreated by those who are already inclined and willing to it, because somehow, I don't know exactly how, they have actively kept that light which lights everyone that comes into the world, and thus are prepared to receive the love for truth. It does not mean they will fuly understand everything. Not at all. But certainly, they do not require constant persuasion, discussion or debate to see, even if its a glimpse, of what is already IN them.

I just wanted to share this with you. I know I've made many mistakes in my discussions and debates. It pains me to remember that. And i see people here making some of those mistakes.

May God bless you and may we fully submit to His wisdom.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Now, why would David plead for forgiveness and or to not take His Holy Spirit from king David if David was one of the Elect? Why would he bother? In the world of Calvinism: God will decide whether or not He is forgiven, and God will forever force His Spirit upon David. David would never be in fear of the Spirit being taken away from Him, if King David was a Calvinist. This is why Calvinism is highly illogical. It just doesn't fit what we read in Scripture.

No. David may not have meant it the way you take him to say, but that he feels a lack of closeness. And besides that, David himself may not have known the Spirit never abandons what it set out to accomplish. Calvinism never says God forces his Spirit upon anyone. That is YOUR word for the grace of God. And not that it changes the point, but I don't read the word, "forgive", anywhere in that psalm (51).

The point is that David was being contrite, and missed fellowship, and lived in Godly fear upon realization or conviction of his sin. It is also possible that he hadn't even yet been regenerated.

Funny how I keep finding you positing a false "world of Calvinism". Why is that?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Anyways, I cannot take Calvinism seriously or those who adhere to it because of the many obvious and clear verses that refute it. Take for example 2 Thessalonians 2:10. It says that the reason why those who perish is because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved.

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
Two things that demolish Calvinism here in this verse.

#1. The reason why those who perish is because they received not the love of the truth.
#2. Those who perish have the capacity to receive the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. Note: In Calvinism, there is no such thing as “MIGHT be saved.”

You misread the word, "might". It is not saying, "who knows? -it may or may not happen" It is saying "in order that". You may as well say that "whosoever" in John 3:16 means that anybody at all has the capacity to believe salvifically.

I could make your point with other verses, too, if I read old English as a modern American, ignorant of principles of language and old English in particular. John 3:18 sounds the same --it says that some will perish "because they have not believed". Well, no, not exactly --it says those who have not believed stand condemned already, because they have not believed. So, then, the meaning goes, if one has not believed, he stands condemned. You infer cause and effect where none is actually implied. If, in fact, they had believed, they would not stand condemned, but the fact they did not believe shows they stand condemned already.

However, if I am wrong about John 3:18, and cause -- effect is implied, then it can also easily be a statement concerning what Thessalonians 2:10 says --simply that they have not "received the truth".

"...they received not the love of truth". There are many things that are caused by or accompany regeneration. The love of truth is one of them, and notice, it says they have not received it. The implication is that it is something to be received, not engendered by the recipient.

Finally, your implication that the lost have the capacity to receive the love of truth is illogical. You demand that if God requires something of anyone, he gives them the ability to fulfill that requirement, but you know no such thing. To you, no doubt, it would be only fair. But fair is not who, or how, one is given regeneration, but that all should perish.

 

[Mark Quayle]

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” (Matthew 23:37) (KJV).

Okay, so Jesus is saying to those individuals in Jerusalem that He desires to gather them like a hen gathers its chicks beneath its wings but the Jerusalem people would not allow the Lord to do so. Jesus is obviously referring to the Israelites in Jerusalem and their salvation. For to follow Jesus is to save one's soul. For he that shall lose his life shall save it, and he that shall save his life shall lose it. Calvinism is refuted in this verse because the will of God in desiring to gather the Jerusalem people for their salvation is being stopped by their own willingness and choice.

No, actually, it doesn't say he wants to. It says he would have, and seems to imply wanting. Second, even if "wanting" is valid, it does not mean his plan for the ages includes what you are saying here that he "wants". They do not stop him. They are, after all, already condemned.

You continue here, to imply that God would not require of anyone anything, according to his sovereignty, if he does not also give them the means of fulling that requirement. That is YOUR sense of reason, not God's, not Scriptures.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you for your reply.

Clearly, your debates have allowed me to see what you believe, with which i agree in many ways. Although I can't say all, because i haven't read all you've written in these forums. And that has been good on one hand. But on the other, I see that many others do not agree and while you believe to be of light by exposing what you believe to be true, they usually don't believe so. They consider you in error, not in truth. You are taken to be the one twisting the Scriptures and being nonsensical, while you may believe the same regarding them.

So, my point is: Those who agree with you, already do so because they already have it IN them to agree. That is, they have a similar knowledge to yours. Like I do. But those who don't, largely dig in their heels and resist what you say, because that is what is IN them.

There may be some, how many, I don't know, who are yet indecisive about a position, and you arguments or the other side's arguments may help them tilt to either way, or even come up with a third way. But in the meantime, what I've witnessed so far that mostly comes out from these debates, is not edification. But strife and contention. I've seen former fellowships torn apart by this desire to show others how wrong they are about something, even if they agree on other things. And this division, this contention, I don't think that's really the fight we are called to fight. I think that fight is mostly about our sanctification, which i understand you are doing and also think you know how fraught it is with obstacles and opposition. For there are many things within us that must be shone under the light and removed from our hearts. Things such as the desire to be right, the holding fast to past, still fleshly paradigms that obfuscate and cloud our understanding of Scripture and many more things. Things that are necessary to fully cast out from our hearts to truly grow in perfection in Christ.

Now, I don't deny that it is important to defend and stand for what one knows is true, good and correct just as Christ did and as Paul did. But one must be very, very careful not to fall into the devil's traps, which are many and constantly present, while we do that. Remember, what others believe to be true, it is so to them, because there is something IN them (and that in effect says something about "free" will, is it really free, or is it tilted someway?) that compels them to believe so. Just like there is something in us that allow us to see what we see and believe in it. Who will truly be in God, after all of this? Because certainly not every belief alligns with His word, no matter how strongly one holds it. Well, God knows who are His'.

But i also believe the following is true regarding the wisdom that is earthly vs. the wisdom that comes from above:
"Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is , there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace."
James 3:13‭-‬18 KJVAAE

It's noteworthy now how it says: "easy to be entreated," that is, good to persuade or as HELPS word studies states, "its easy to come to terms with because already willing" It does not require a constant back and forth. The wisdom that comes from above is easy to be entreated by those who are already inclined and willing to it, because somehow, I don't know exactly how, they have actively kept that light which lights everyone that comes into the world, and thus are prepared to receive the love for truth. It does not mean they will fuly understand everything. Not at all. But certainly, they do not require constant persuasion, discussion or debate to see, even if its a glimpse, of what is already IN them.

I just wanted to share this with you. I know I've made many mistakes in my discussions and debates. It pains me to remember that. And i see people here making some of those mistakes.

May God bless you and may we fully submit to His wisdom.

Every Christian needs a platform to spread the truth of God's Word. Some are street preachers. Some preach in a church building. Others preach in their home with other believers. Others preach by videos. Others preach by writing books, or comics. I know that by talking on the forums has helped me to have a platform. The forums have helped me to stay actively engaged in God's Word, and I have helped people in understanding His Word, as well. I do not always keep debating an issue over, and over, and over with folks if I feel they are not getting it or they just want to hear what they want to hear (Despite what the Bible says). Granted, over the years, I was not perfect. I have let certain debates drag on longer than they should. But even amongst certain topics that have dragged on for a certain length of time, while my opponent did not benefit, I surely did, and I know that others have as well. For example: I remember one topic of discussion involving God's Word in the past. Did Jesus' first miracle recorded in Scripture involve the making of alcoholic wine or was it unfermened wine (grape juice)? I discussed this topic two times at great length. In this kind of debate or discussion, I started to do my research on the topic in order to defend what I believed was the truth. This is not something I would have done if I just read and believed the Bible. So my opponents have helped me to dig deeper in God's Word so as to shine the truth of His Word to all. You have to remember that there are other people who may not even sign up at this website and they can read years later what I had written by doing a Google search. So I write for them. They that have ears to hear will hear in the proper timing later on. I am nothing. Jesus is everything. My goal is to plant seeds, and let another water. But it is God that gives the increase.

But I consider what you have to say, and I will pray about it, and research this topic that you suggest some more.

Peace, blessings, and love be unto you in the Lord Jesus Christ;
And may always be strong in the power of His might.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It shows he was repentant and grieved over his sin and was pleading with God for forgiveness. Its irrelevant whether or not a person is an Arminian, Calvinist, Lutheran, Baptist, Evangelical etc.......

David is writing from his heart not a from a theological position.

IMHO your question is a fallacious one at best.

FYI- there are better passages than this example to counter calvinism than the example you just gave us.

hope this helps !!!

Does being one of the Elect mean you are forever saved?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Does being one of the Elect mean you are forever saved?

Once a person is born again they do not become unborn. Same in the physical birth, same in the spiritual birth. Its called ETERNAL LIFE for a reason and not conditional or temporal life.

hope this helps !!!

 

[i submitted to the Lord]

Every Christian needs a platform to spread the truth of God's Word. Some are street preachers. Some preach in a church building. Others preach in their home with other believers. Others preach by videos. Others preach by writing books, or comics. I know that by talking on the forums has helped me to have a platform. The forums have helped me to stay actively engaged in God's Word, and I have helped people in understanding His Word, as well. I do not always keep debating an issue over, and over, and over with folks if I feel they are not getting it or they just want to hear what they want to hear (Despite what the Bible says). Granted, over the years, I was not perfect. I have let certain debates drag on longer than they should. But even amongst certain topics that have dragged on for a certain length of time, while my opponent did not benefit, I surely did, and I know that others have as well. For example: I remember one topic of discussion involving God's Word in the past. Did Jesus' first miracle recorded in Scripture involve the making of alcoholic wine or was it unfermened wine (grape juice)? I discussed this topic two times at great length. In this kind of debate or discussion, I started to do my research on the topic in order to defend what I believed was the truth. This is not something I would have done if I just read and believed the Bible. So my opponents have helped me to dig deeper in God's Word so as to shine the truth of His Word to all. You have to remember that there are other people who may not even sign up at this website and they can read years later what I had written by doing a Google search. So I write for them. They that have ears to hear will hear in the proper timing later on. I am nothing. Jesus is everything. My goal is to plant seeds, and let another water. But it is God that gives the increase.

But I consider what you have to say, and I will pray about it, and research this topic that you suggest some more.

Peace, blessings, and love be unto you in the Lord Jesus Christ;
And may always be strong in the power of His might.

I appreciate your attitude and willingness to consider, pray and research some more; and I thank God for it.

And now, may I kindly ask you. Would you like me to share with you what I've learned and come to understand as free will? It's neither calvinistic, nor really something that can be called "free" by normal standards and definitions.

Peace, grace, love and wisdom to you.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Does being one of the Elect mean you are forever saved?

No, God's plan means the elect will be in heaven. To call them forever saved is not quite as accurate as to say that once they are regenerated, there is no going back. They are forever new creatures in Christ. They persevere, the same way they repent, the same way they believe, the same way they are regenerated --by the Spirit of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Once a person is born again they do not become unborn. Same in the physical birth, same in the spiritual birth. Its called ETERNAL LIFE for a reason and not conditional or temporal life.

hope this helps !!!

While one cannot become unborn, they can die.
Meaning, one can die spiritually.

Anyways, eternal life is not in the way that you describe according to the Bible.

#1. Jesus alone possesses immortality (See: 1 Timothy 6:16).
In other words, eternal life is something Christ alone possesses, and eternal life is not something that is like a newly gained super power, or magical wish granted to you by a genie. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).

#2. We have to abide in Christ (who is the source of life) in order to have eternal life. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. No Jesus, and no life (or no eternal life).

#3. How can we have an assurance that we are abiding in the Son or that we know Him (Thus proving we have eternal life)? 1 John 2:3 essentially says we can have an assurance that we know Him if we find that we are keeping His commandments. Jesus says, “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23). “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10). 1 John 3:10 says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” John also says, “For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” (John 3:20). “If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.” (1 John 2:29).

#4. The children of the kingdom are said to be cast into outer darkness.

"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12).​

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32): When the prodigal son came home from his riotous life of sin and he sought forgiveness with his father, his father said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again." The son was said to be "lost" and now he is "found." Generally when we talk about the "lost" in the Bible, they are the unsaved or spiritually lost. In other words, the parable is utilizing spiritual terms. The son was spiritually dead when he was living a life of sin, and when he came back home to the father and sought forgiveness with him, he became alive again spiritually. This truth is confirmed by James 5:19-20.

You can even be in the Kingdom and be cast out because of sin or iniquity.

For the Son of Man (Jesus) will one day send forth his angels and they will gather out of His Kingdom all who offend (sin) and those who do iniquity (intense sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).​

Also, some try to say that if a son commits a crime, they are still a son of their father. However, I doubt very much that if a father's son turned out to be Hitler, and this son desired to kill their own father and his own family that he would be considered as a son by his father and that he would be willing to welcome home to fellowship with his family over a meal. Why would the father do that if the son was seeking to hurt him and his other loved family members? Such a son would show that he is no longer a beloved son of the family because such a son would destroy the family's existence. You cannot have a family if they are dead and gone.

There are serious sins to God and they break fellowship with God because He is a holy, just, and good God. We cannot condone sin and think we can be saved. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:16 says that we have the mind of Christ. Most Christians today believe they can sin and still be saved on some level. That this is okay for a believer to think this way. But Jesus never had this kind of thinking. How could He? Jesus is God. He could never condone sin. So if we are to truly have the mind of Christ, we cannot justify sin on some level, as well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I appreciate your attitude and willingness to consider, pray and research some more; and I thank God for it.

I will pray about it, and I will search the Scriptures.
If nothing comes of it, then I will know that I was not wrong to debate on Christian forums.
In fact, what would be my alternative platform to preach the Word to others?
Do you have one that would fit my personality?
You have to think that if I don't talk on the forums in regards to God's Word, I will not keep verses fresh in my mind, and I will not be digging deeper into God's Word by discussion with other believers (that is not always the case with believers in person).
So I see your request as something that would hinder my growth in studying God's Word.
Yes, I do personal word studies by just opening the good book. I do that, too. But there is another element of study that happens when you are challenged by an opponent. Not sure you understand that and how that can be fruitful.

And now, may I kindly ask you. Would you like me to share with you what I've learned and come to understand as free will? It's neither calvinistic, nor really something that can be called "free" by normal standards and definitions.

Peace, grace, love and wisdom to you.

Does Man Have Free Will?

Free will is defined in a few different ways. Here is one of it's definitions.

Free will (Noun) - The ability to act at one's own discretion.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...sh/free%2Bwill

In fact, the origin of the word "will" is especially important to look at, too. It says this..

Will (Verb) - To wish, desire, want, to will, or to choose.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Now, how can you have the desire for anything or to choose differently if you did not have the free choice (i.e. free will) to choose or to not to choose in the first place?

Anyways, here is a list of the different types of Free Will that I hope you shall consider.

The Three different types of Free Will:

#1. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Type Free Will.
#2. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will.
#3. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will.​

And the hypothetical Free Will that does not exist for any being within our universe.
Which is...

#1. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will.​

A. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Free Will:
All non-believers or people who have not genuinely accepted Christ as their Savior are slaves to sin in some way. Now, this does not mean that unbelievers are not capable of making limited free will choices that are correct or good for their own well being (like choosing not to murder, steal, fornicate, or do drugs). However, on the other hand they are limited in their free will in the sense that they are slaves to sin and will have some type of sin within their life that separates them from God.

B. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will:
All true believers in Christ or those who genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior are set free from being a slave to sin. This gives the believer a higher level of free will than that of a non-believer who is incapable of not sinning habitually. Now, does this mean that the believer does not have the free will to no longer sin anymore? No, most certainly not. It just means that they are no longer bound to sin anymore and are given a higher status of limited free will (or limited choices). They are also not forced against their free will to have a continued salvation or to still be a believer in Christ if they decide to change their minds, too. They still must choose each day to serve the Lord or to not serve the Lord. For a believer can forfeit his or her salvation if they do not live for Christ and become a new creature; Thus, showing that they were born again.

C. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will:
God is limited to doing only that which is good and right. For God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God is love and in Him is no evil. He is the very embodiment of all that is Holy, just, perfect, and good in this life. For there is none good but God. In other words, God is incapable of doing any type of evil or sin. He is perfect and good in every way. His limitation is that He can only do that which is good and right. Which of course is a good limitation to have. So praise be to our God for being all that is loving and good.

D. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will:
No being in the universe has absolute or ultimate free will. For if absolute free will existed, then there would have to be a being who could do whatever they wanted whether good or evil with no restrictions or consequences attached whatsoever. In other words, this concept of Free Will is purely imaginary because no being possesses this type of Free Will type characteristics.

In other words, It is not God's will or desire that you sin and reject Him. Yes, you are under His creation, sovereign rule, and divine plan (because the Lord can work both good and evil for His purposes), but God does not approve of someone doing evil as if it was His approved of will or desire for your life. God is good. Not evil.

For the moment you take away free will (not ultimate free will) is the moment you make God responsible for directly creating evil and sin. However, there is no darkness in God at all. God created free willed beings that made the decision to be evil and to sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to rebel. They had a choice to either choose life or to choose death. They chose death. Not because God wanted them to. It was because they wanted to choose death.

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.


Do you want to debate this?
You already established that is not your thing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I encourage all to watch this video: