Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

[GenemZ]

Forget about free will. Its like trying to define what we would be like if we had no sin nature.

To shorten the debate one should define what causes fallen man to be not able to believe in God if left to his own devices. The flesh!

Now, what controls our flesh when we are doing God's will? The Holy Spirit's restraint. Grace!

What saves us? Grace! Grace restrains the hearer's flesh while hearing the Gospel so that his soul is MADE FREE to choose to believe!

Without Grace? No one would have a freed will to believe God's Word. Right now we do not have a free will. We have been given a "freed" will. Once we have our sinless resurrections bodies we will know what its like to have a free will. Until then we need God's Grace to function correctly.

That is why we are saved by grace (Holy Spirit restraint of our flesh, and enabling and freeing our soul to choose) through faith (accepting the Gospel) (Romans 10:17)


grace and peace.......

 

[mlepfitjw]

Ok

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are different levels of Calvinism. Most Calvinists I have debated with over 10 years will say that man can make free will choices, BUT man cannot make a free will decision to choose Jesus Christ on his own power or ability. Calvinists will say that choosing Jesus Christ by faith is a work if we were not regenerated prior or unless we had some kind of Calvinistic election (i.e. a change of heart, mind, and will by GOD).

In regards to the free will decision in choosing GOD for Arminians: Well, Arminians can be split into three groups. Involving the free will choice in choosing Jesus Christ as Savior by faith, Arminians can believe in one of the following three below:

1. Prevenient Grace (Compatible with Total Depravity).
2. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority (Compatible with Partial Depravity).
3. Unrestricted Free Will Choice (with no hindrance of any kind). Man simply can choose GOD at any point in their life (When He learns of the the gospel message). There is no depravity of any kind that would hinder their free will choice in accepting Jesus (Not even in their own sinful nature can blind them from this choice).​

Like Calvinism has five points, Arminians have a 5 point system, as well. Here are the Original 5 Articles (or Points) of Traditional Arminianism:

1. Conditional Election.
2. Unlimited Atonement.
3. Total Depravity.
4. Prevenient Grace.
5. Conditional Preservation of the Saints.

Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia

I believe in something close to this.

Here are my points (that are similar to Arminianism):

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Conditional Salvation.
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#5. Partial Depravity.
​

Note: My Arminian influenced points on my list above when rearranged spells CCUPP.

The differences in my points are:

(a) I believe in Partial Depravity, and not Total Depravity.

(b) I believe in Conditional Salvation, and not Conditional Preservation of the Saints. I do not believe God forces us against our own will to do what He wants. We need to be faithful (and it is not God who needs to be faithful on our behalf) (Yes, God can protect us, chastise us, etc., but we have to do our part first to make that so) (We are not puppets).

(c) I believe in Majority Atonement and not Unlimited Atonement. I believe that the sacrifice of Christ's atonement is for the majority of the world, and that it is a free will offer for a person to accept as a gift or to reject it of their own choosing, but God has excluded those who worship the beast in the future from the Lamb's book of life (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8) (Note: While I am sure they had a free will choice to accept Christ, they were never going to do that and God knew that fact; They would do something that could never be forgiven).

(d) Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority and not Prevenient Grace. They are similar but not exactly the same. My view takes into account that God desires all men to be saved, and it also takes into account Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. Prevenient Grace does not also clarify that God may not make multiple attempts to try and save a person, as well.
​

Then again, do not take my word for what I have stated. Do your own homework with God's Word and check to see whether these things be so or not. Remember. Trust no one when it comes to what the Word of God says. Yes, there are things many believers may agree on for sure like the Trinity, etc. but there are other things out there that I have discovered we clearly do not agree on. Let God and His Word be your guide.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Note: I have debated with some Calvinists a long time ago on another Christian forum who believe that man has no free will choice of any kind. They believe God predetermines every choice and is 100% sovereign in everything (even man's choices to sin). These are high Calvinists (or as I would like to say as: Hardcore Calvinists). Either way, Calvinism is still crazier than a bag of cats. Besides a quick surface reading of Romans 9 (with ignoring the context of Israel), there really is not any Scripture that supports Calvinism. Calvinism is also immoral because it makes GOD out to be cold hearted in that He saves some based on no conditions and He does not save others based on no conditions. God could save them all, but He simply chooses not to save them for any potential in the future to do good within the individual (Hence why it is called Unconditional Election).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Note: I may not agree with everything this Pastor teaches, but I do agree with this video.

 

[GenemZ]

Note: I may not agree with everything this Pastor teaches, but I do agree with this video.

Name one denomination/sect that does not have Scriptures quoted to justify their errors?

Unless you have an accurate understanding of what the Bible says ... as intended in the original languages... we will all be free to pick and choose whatever teaching feels right to our way of seeing things. We end up with the following...

There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death." Proverbs 14:12
​

Yet... it hurts and makes us feel insecure to know we are not able to speculate and figure it out on our own. We can not grab some translation and teach ourselves. That is... Unless one enjoys the sense of resolved, determined isolation from others. It makes some to feel strong. But they are weak in understanding what would make them "peacefully strong" in their inner man.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9​

We are in a predicament. Are we not?

Many assume that God thinks and feels like they do on a matter. Yet? Unless we are shown? His ways will remain foreign to our thinking on certain matters. It may even shock us to learn how wrong we have been.

That is why Jesus said... We must deny self and take up our cross if we wish to follow Him. For the Word will demand that we die to our own way of seeing things if we are to continue maturing in Christ.

I have had my shares of being shocked to see how English translations mislead, and in some cases, reflect the bias of the translator who had no idea why something was said in the original languages. And, as a result, injected their own bias into the translation to try to make sense of it.

Yet... God is fair and just. He will provide for those who He knows seeks His will. We all who disagree with one another? All can not be right. Can we? No.

The only way to narrow down our options of what to believe to to find and receive sound doctrinal teachings from various men God has raised up to serve the Body of Christ. Showing these men pertinent truth for the day for which we are living in. It must be accurate teaching from the original languages that is presented to us in a manner we can understand for today.

We in our natural selves assume too much... And, do not discern that we assume, and must be trained to know when we are attempting to assume. God must train us to sense and know when we are falling back upon our own way of thinking. That requires being shown how wrong we can be when being shown truth.

We must learn by grace to let go and rest in trust and wait upon the Lord to reveal what is needed to be known in His timing. Not according to ours...That is where patience is developed by grace. Unless we walk in the Spirit, and find ourselves resting and waiting, when no clear answer is yet found?.... And, knowing when to be running towards something when given the command to run. We are to be trained like spiritual soldiers. Like pioneers moving into new territory, so that God can have our souls settle down in grace and truth while we simply find ourselves waiting for our ultimate deliverance.

Other that? Many here are not getting it right. Quite a few are dogmatic and set in their thinking. Its a defense mechanism they developed while placed under demonic pressures to keep them from the truth. Truth that they refused to continue to suffer to find because God was keeping them waiting for the right time. They quit in determination they call "having conviction." In a sense. They got angry with God for making them wait for an answer, and made up their minds "that this is what I am going to believe!" .... as the demonic pressure left them. Lifting the pressure to produce a false sense of peace. Its a deception. Its how we get corralled and controlled as to not becoming a threat to principalities and powers.

rant over......

 

[i submitted to the Lord]

Name one denomination/sect that does not have Scriptures quoted to justify their errors?

Unless you have an accurate understanding of what the Bible says ... as intended in the original languages... we will all be free to pick and choose whatever teaching feels right to our way of seeing things. We end up with the following...

There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death." Proverbs 14:12
​

Yet... it hurts and makes us feel insecure to know we are not able to speculate and figure it out on our own. We can not grab some translation and teach ourselves. That is... Unless one enjoys the sense of resolved, determined isolation from others. It makes some to feel strong. But they are weak in understanding what would make them "peacefully strong" in their inner man.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9​

We are in a predicament. Are we not?

Many assume that God thinks and feels like they do on a matter. Yet? Unless we are shown? His ways will remain foreign to our thinking on certain matters. It may even shock us to learn how wrong we have been.

That is why Jesus said... We must deny self and take up our cross if we wish to follow Him. For the Word will demand that we die to our own way of seeing things if we are to continue maturing in Christ.

I have had my shares of being shocked to see how English translations mislead, and in some cases, reflect the bias of the translator who had no idea why something was said in the original languages. And, as a result, injected their own bias into the translation to try to make sense of it.

Yet... God is fair and just. He will provide for those who He knows seeks His will. We all who disagree with one another? All can not be right. Can we? No.

The only way to narrow down our options of what to believe to to find and receive sound doctrinal teachings from various men God has raised up to serve the Body of Christ. Showing these men pertinent truth for the day for which we are living in. It must be accurate teaching from the original languages that is presented to us in a manner we can understand for today.

We in our natural selves assume too much... And, do not discern that we assume, and must be trained to know when we are attempting to assume. God must train us to sense and know when we are falling back upon our own way of thinking. That requires being shown how wrong we can be when being shown truth.

We must learn by grace to let go and rest in trust and wait upon the Lord to reveal what is needed to be known in His timing. Not according to ours...That is where patience is developed by grace. Unless we walk in the Spirit, and find ourselves resting and waiting, when no clear answer is yet found?.... And, knowing when to be running towards something when given the command to run. We are to be trained like spiritual soldiers. Like pioneers moving into new territory, so that God can have our souls settle down in grace and truth while we simply find ourselves waiting for our ultimate deliverance.

Other that? Many here are not getting it right. Quite a few are dogmatic and set in their thinking. Its a defense mechanism they developed while placed under demonic pressures to keep them from the truth. Truth that they refused to continue to suffer to find because God was keeping them waiting for the right time. They quit in determination they call "having conviction." In a sense. They got angry with God for making them wait for an answer, and made up their minds "that this is what I am going to believe!" .... as the demonic pressure left them. Lifting the pressure to produce a false sense of peace. Its a deception. Its how we get corralled and controlled as to not becoming a threat to principalities and powers.

rant over......

Your words are quite insightful and far from a rant. Surprisingly insightful... Although a bit convoluted. Please check your syntaxis, because what you overall say is good, but not very clear.

And lastly, how do you know in truth you have waited enough to receive that true knowledge and understanding of His Word by grace, and are not self-deceived or externally deceived into believing that you have, as others do and you clearly point out, by a false, even if real, sense of peace?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Forget about free will. Its like trying to define what we would be like if we had no sin nature.

To shorten the debate one should define what causes fallen man to be not able to believe in God if left to his own devices. The flesh!

Now, what controls our flesh when we are doing God's will? The Holy Spirit's restraint. Grace!

What saves us? Grace! Grace restrains the hearer's flesh while hearing the Gospel so that his soul is MADE FREE to choose to believe!

Without Grace? No one would have a freed will to believe God's Word. Right now we do not have a free will. We have been given a "freed" will. Once we have our sinless resurrections bodies we will know what its like to have a free will. Until then we need God's Grace to function correctly.

That is why we are saved by grace (Holy Spirit restraint of our flesh, and enabling and freeing our soul to choose) through faith (accepting the Gospel) (Romans 10:17)


grace and peace.......

So you are still left with the human's choice as the hinge upon which his destiny turns.

 

[Mark Quayle]

There are different levels of Calvinism. Most Calvinists I have debated with over 10 years will say that man can make free will choices, BUT man cannot make a free will decision to choose Jesus Christ on His own power or ability. Calvinists will say that choosing Jesus Christ by faith is a work if we were not regenerated prior or unless we had some kind of Calvinistic election (i.e. a change of heart, mind, and will by GOD).

In regards to the free will decision in choosing GOD for Arminians: Well, Arminians can be split into three groups. Involving the free will choice in choosing Jesus Christ as Savior by faith, Arminians can believe in one of the following three below:

1. Prevenient Grace (Compatible with Total Depravity).
2. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority (Compatible with Partial Depravity).
3. Unrestricted Free Will Choice (with no hindrance of any kind). Man simply can choose GOD at any point in their life (When He learns of the the gospel message). There is no depravity of any kind that would hinder their free will choice in accepting Jesus (Not even in their own sinful nature can blind them from this choice).​

Like Calvinism has five points, Arminians have a 5 point system, as well. Here are the Original 5 Articles (or Points) of Traditional Arminianism:

1. Conditional Election.
2. Unlimited Atonement.
3. Total Depravity.
4. Prevenient Grace.
5. Conditional Preservation of the Saints.

Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia

I believe in something close to this.

Here are my points (that are similar to Arminianism):

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Conditional Salvation.
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#5. Partial Depravity.
​

Note: My Arminian influenced points on my list above when rearranged spells CCUPP.

The differences in my points are:

(a) I believe in Partial Depravity, and not Total Depravity.

(b) I believe in Conditional Salvation, and not Conditional Preservation of the Saints. I do not believe God forces us against our own will to do what He wants. We need to be faithful (and it is not God who needs to be faithful on our behalf) (Yes, God can protect us, chastise us, etc., but we have to do our part first to make that so) (We are not puppets).

(c) I believe in Majority Atonement and not Unlimited Atonement. I believe that the sacrifice of Christ's atonement is for the majority of the world, and that it is a free will offer for a person to accept as a gift or to reject it of their own choosing, but God has excluded those who worship the beast in the future from the Lamb's book of life (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8) (Note: While I am sure they had a free will choice to accept Christ, they were never going to do that and God knew that fact; They would do something that could never be forgiven).

(d) Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority and not Prevenient Grace. They are similar but not exactly the same. My view takes into account that God desires all men to be saved, and it also takes into account Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. Prevenient Grace does not also clarify that God may not make multiple attempts to try and save a person, as well.
​

Then again, do not take my word for what I have stated. Do your own homework with God's Word and check to see whether these things be so or not. Remember. Trust no one when it comes to what the Word of God says. Yes, there are things many believers may agree on for sure like the Trinity, etc. but there are other things out there that I have discovered we clearly do not agree on. Let God and His Word be your guide.

Perhaps for some readers it is worth noting that the Five Points of Calvinism were originally drafted as an answer to the Five Points of Arminianism.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Name one denomination/sect that does not have Scriptures quoted to justify their errors?

Unless you have an accurate understanding of what the Bible says ... as intended in the original languages... we will all be free to pick and choose whatever teaching feels right to our way of seeing things. We end up with the following...

There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death." Proverbs 14:12
​

Yet... it hurts and makes us feel insecure to know we are not able to speculate and figure it out on our own. We can not grab some translation and teach ourselves. That is... Unless one enjoys the sense of resolved, determined isolation from others. It makes some to feel strong. But they are weak in understanding what would make them "peacefully strong" in their inner man.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9​

We are in a predicament. Are we not?

Many assume that God thinks and feels like they do on a matter. Yet? Unless we are shown? His ways will remain foreign to our thinking on certain matters. It may even shock us to learn how wrong we have been.

That is why Jesus said... We must deny self and take up our cross if we wish to follow Him. For the Word will demand that we die to our own way of seeing things if we are to continue maturing in Christ.

I have had my shares of being shocked to see how English translations mislead, and in some cases, reflect the bias of the translator who had no idea why something was said in the original languages. And, as a result, injected their own bias into the translation to try to make sense of it.

Yet... God is fair and just. He will provide for those who He knows seeks His will. We all who disagree with one another? All can not be right. Can we? No.

The only way to narrow down our options of what to believe to to find and receive sound doctrinal teachings from various men God has raised up to serve the Body of Christ. Showing these men pertinent truth for the day for which we are living in. It must be accurate teaching from the original languages that is presented to us in a manner we can understand for today.

We in our natural selves assume too much... And, do not discern that we assume, and must be trained to know when we are attempting to assume. God must train us to sense and know when we are falling back upon our own way of thinking. That requires being shown how wrong we can be when being shown truth.

We must learn by grace to let go and rest in trust and wait upon the Lord to reveal what is needed to be known in His timing. Not according to ours...That is where patience is developed by grace. Unless we walk in the Spirit, and find ourselves resting and waiting, when no clear answer is yet found?.... And, knowing when to be running towards something when given the command to run. We are to be trained like spiritual soldiers. Like pioneers moving into new territory, so that God can have our souls settle down in grace and truth while we simply find ourselves waiting for our ultimate deliverance.

Other that? Many here are not getting it right. Quite a few are dogmatic and set in their thinking. Its a defense mechanism they developed while placed under demonic pressures to keep them from the truth. Truth that they refused to continue to suffer to find because God was keeping them waiting for the right time. They quit in determination they call "having conviction." In a sense. They got angry with God for making them wait for an answer, and made up their minds "that this is what I am going to believe!" .... as the demonic pressure left them. Lifting the pressure to produce a false sense of peace. Its a deception. Its how we get corralled and controlled as to not becoming a threat to principalities and powers.

rant over......

You replied to my post with the video. But did you watch the whole video?

Proverbs 18:13 says,
“He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.”

 

[Mark Quayle]

Right, while God is one step ahead of man in that He has chosen us before we have chosen Him, man still is responsible for choosing God, and it is not God who forces them to choose by some kind of pre-faith regeneration or Calvinistic Election.

So you still insist on a god who flies by the seat of his pants, reacting only one step ahead of man? You still insist that man plays a part in his own salvation --that his eternal destiny still hinges on his own ignorant fitful weak will, and not on the decision of his Maker?

If God forces salvation upon certain people, then why doesn't He do that for all people? What purpose would there be for a Judgment even? Why would God condemn people if He was the One who put them there? He could have prevented them in going to a Judgment if salvation ultimately rested in his hands. To put it to you another way, it would sort of like this: One day a robot inventor created a robot whereby it gets a virus and or it goes haywire by an accident whereby it now wants to only murder as a part of it's programming. The inventor could have corrected this problem easily (from a remote destination), but he simply chooses not to fix the robot. Then one day, when the robot kills a person the inventor puts that robot on trial for killing. That would not make any sense for the inventor to do that because the robot is only doing what it is programmed to do (and the inventor could have stopped it). But if the robot was given free will choice as a part of it's programming and it could have equally chosen to do good instead of murdering, then that would be a different story.

The uselessness of your caricature of what God has done in creating (putting robots on trial???), and the falseness inherent in deciding what is just or unjust for God to have done in creating ("forcing"??? --does causing equal forcing???) notwithstanding, I want to point out that God does not judge unjustly. If he makes some for one purpose and another for another purpose, it is his prerogative. He needn't satisfy our sense of justice.

But more, I want to address your assumed level of integrity of mankind as to his ability to choose. I remind you that God does not "honor" us, apart from him, with even the esteem that we attribute to ourselves in our choices --not only is he just enough to consider the fact that we are like children, having only minimal understanding and steadfastness, but he knows all causes, and will not be unjust in his verdicts.

We are not at present complete beings striving with or against God. We are not yet "ourselves" (I speak foolishly here, for lack of another way to get this idea across.) I ask you to please reconsider the notion that in and of ourselves our abilities are anything. We are, apart from him, quite rightly called "dead". Even the elect, regenerated, made alive, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, are both more complete persons and less complete than we can know. We are not the individuals we think we are --each one of us has no value or individuality except as he has use for us. We are not yet complete units (using the robot idea here, haha). Yet because of his assessment of us and use for us, we (the elect, particularly) have value beyond our comprehension. His use for us includes each of our places as members of the Bride of Christ, bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. Though this was done at God's decree from the foundation of the earth, at the cost of the slaying of the Lamb, we will not see it as complete until we see him as he is.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Name one denomination/sect that does not have Scriptures quoted to justify their errors?

Unless you have an accurate understanding of what the Bible says ... as intended in the original languages... we will all be free to pick and choose whatever teaching feels right to our way of seeing things. We end up with the following...

There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death." Proverbs 14:12
​

Yet... it hurts and makes us feel insecure to know we are not able to speculate and figure it out on our own. We can not grab some translation and teach ourselves. That is... Unless one enjoys the sense of resolved, determined isolation from others. It makes some to feel strong. But they are weak in understanding what would make them "peacefully strong" in their inner man.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9​

We are in a predicament. Are we not?

Many assume that God thinks and feels like they do on a matter. Yet? Unless we are shown? His ways will remain foreign to our thinking on certain matters. It may even shock us to learn how wrong we have been.

That is why Jesus said... We must deny self and take up our cross if we wish to follow Him. For the Word will demand that we die to our own way of seeing things if we are to continue maturing in Christ.

I have had my shares of being shocked to see how English translations mislead, and in some cases, reflect the bias of the translator who had no idea why something was said in the original languages. And, as a result, injected their own bias into the translation to try to make sense of it.

Yet... God is fair and just. He will provide for those who He knows seeks His will. We all who disagree with one another? All can not be right. Can we? No.

The only way to narrow down our options of what to believe to to find and receive sound doctrinal teachings from various men God has raised up to serve the Body of Christ. Showing these men pertinent truth for the day for which we are living in. It must be accurate teaching from the original languages that is presented to us in a manner we can understand for today.

We in our natural selves assume too much... And, do not discern that we assume, and must be trained to know when we are attempting to assume. God must train us to sense and know when we are falling back upon our own way of thinking. That requires being shown how wrong we can be when being shown truth.

We must learn by grace to let go and rest in trust and wait upon the Lord to reveal what is needed to be known in His timing. Not according to ours...That is where patience is developed by grace. Unless we walk in the Spirit, and find ourselves resting and waiting, when no clear answer is yet found?.... And, knowing when to be running towards something when given the command to run. We are to be trained like spiritual soldiers. Like pioneers moving into new territory, so that God can have our souls settle down in grace and truth while we simply find ourselves waiting for our ultimate deliverance.

Other that? Many here are not getting it right. Quite a few are dogmatic and set in their thinking. Its a defense mechanism they developed while placed under demonic pressures to keep them from the truth. Truth that they refused to continue to suffer to find because God was keeping them waiting for the right time. They quit in determination they call "having conviction." In a sense. They got angry with God for making them wait for an answer, and made up their minds "that this is what I am going to believe!" .... as the demonic pressure left them. Lifting the pressure to produce a false sense of peace. Its a deception. Its how we get corralled and controlled as to not becoming a threat to principalities and powers.

rant over......

Another big problem I have with your approach with interpreting the Bible is that you look to men who think they know dead languages in order to understand God’s Word. It’s like the Bible has to be decoded as if it was some mystery that cannot be understood plainly in our world language today.

James says God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. This does not conjure up images of educated theologians. The poor guy is simple. Peter was a fisherman. He was simple. In other words, the poor man will just hear God’s Word and believe it plainly.

“For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

 

[GenemZ]

Your words are quite insightful and far from a rant. Surprisingly insightful... Although a bit convoluted. Please check your syntaxis, because what you overall say is good, but not very clear.

If it were not very clear? You could think it was insightful?

When the Spirit has access to our minds, we may not know how we can know what we know. We will just find ourselves... "knowing." That is grace in action when it happens. Like the moment you knew you were saved.

And lastly, how do you know in truth you have waited enough to receive that true knowledge and understanding of His Word by grace, and are not self-deceived or externally deceived into believing that you have, as others do and you clearly point out, by a false, even if real, sense of peace?

You can not know by some law for what peace is. For, what is peace? That is why the Lord must evaluate each one of us.

Why does God's Word speak of possessing peace unless it can be known? Its spiritual reality.

Its an inner witness. Peace can be manifested in finding yourself knowing what to think when thrust into a disaster. Peace, because one has been prepared with what to think with.

And, then there is the peace that one knows while at a quiet lake overlooking the horizon. Yet, another may need a few drinks before he can relax and somewhat enjoy the blur. How many know contentment in this life. Not feeling we are back in the Garden type peace. For, this is the Devil's world and he goes about seeking who he can devour. Peace can be knowing you can hold your ground because of the times of suffering in God testing and preparing us for battle.

But, then again.. we can know. Just like how do you know you are saved?

Not everyone has peace with that thought. Do they? But, they are saved just the same. Like many now have had the virus and are afraid they may get it.

Like I said... That is why the Lord will evaluate each one of us. Many will find that what they did for the Lord will be evaluated as wood, hay, and stubble. But, they were sure of what they constructed with those materials, by making the truth bend to their desired reality. For, one must ascertain the original intent of the Scriptures to be certain. And, as much as God will provide for us in His plan for our lives.

We who may disagree with each other all share the same foundation of salvation by faith in Christ.

What takes place after we are saved will determine our eternal reward. The Lord will evaluate each one of us. How much did we truly know Him? He is the Word of God ...And, now to be given to us in written form. In heaven we will see the Word of God face to face. Hebrew and Greek was chosen by God for a reason. Translators have a frightening and awesome responsibility not to misrepresent the Lord to us in written form.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which
is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver,
costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is,
because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the
fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built
survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder
will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping
through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

​

In Christ.... grace and peace.

 

[Mark Quayle]

There are different levels of Calvinism. Most Calvinists I have debated with over 10 years will say that man can make free will choices, BUT man cannot make a free will decision to choose Jesus Christ on His own power or ability. Calvinists will say that choosing Jesus Christ by faith is a work if we were not regenerated prior or unless we had some kind of Calvinistic election (i.e. a change of heart, mind, and will by GOD).

It is true that Calvinism teaches man cannot make a free will decision to choose Christ on his own power and ability (I assume the caps, "His" in "choose Jesus Christ on His own power or ability", is a typo). They also teach that in any kind of decision or thinking of the unsaved, "free will" is bound by the sin nature. Any that has any degree of truly free will is the regenerated. Yet even that is bound within God's grace --we are slaves of Christ. I.e. they don't at all believe in just any old definition of "free will".

 

[GenemZ]

So you are still left with the human's choice as the hinge upon which his destiny turns.

Why do you insist in saying God did not create man in His own image?

God is absolute sovereignty. Man created in His image has been created with a domain for sovereignty. So much so? God willed to allow man to reject Him if man so deemed it to be. To me? That is truly creating another life onto itself. Otherwise? God would have been left playing with toy soldiers and dolls.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It is true that Calvinism teaches man cannot make a free will decision to choose Christ on his own power and ability (I assume the caps, "His" in "choose Jesus Christ on His own power or ability", is a typo). They also teach that in any kind of decision or thinking of the unsaved, "free will" is bound by the sin nature. Any that has any degree of truly free will is the regenerated. Yet even that is bound within God's grace --we are slaves of Christ. I.e. they don't at all believe in just any old definition of "free will".

And James Arminius taught the same thing as well.

 

[GenemZ]

It is true that Calvinism teaches man cannot make a free will decision to choose Christ on his own power and ability (I assume the caps, "His" in "choose Jesus Christ on His own power or ability", is a typo). They also teach that in any kind of decision or thinking of the unsaved, "free will" is bound by the sin nature. Any that has any degree of truly free will is the regenerated. Yet even that is bound within God's grace --we are slaves of Christ. I.e. they don't at all believe in just any old definition of "free will".

The element of Calvinism that rubs many the wrong way... Is that God forces (drags along) those whom He elected to be made to be saved. That man's will is not the deciding factor.

Then? We are left with a capricious God who saves at whim, because all men are equally depraved.

Hint... Your parents created your body which contains the sin nature that oppresses your soul. Your soul which was delegated by God to be given to that body. Remember... God saved your soul. Not your flesh. God alone creates the soul. God can not create something sinful. He leaves that to our parents to provide.

Question: What do you have if you can eliminate the sin nature from the flesh? A soul that has free will!

But, how can that soul have free will while under the salve master of the sinful flesh? To achieve that goal, the power of God's Grace stomps down the sin nature while giving that suspended sinless soul a chance to decide what he thinks about God's Word. That's when it happens.

God determines when and where this grace is to be administered. Its during those moments that God draws that soul to Himself. Yet? That soul can still choose to reject God. Its not irresistible as certain Calvinist insist upon.

“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised.
You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even
killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now
you have betrayed and murdered him— Act 7:50-52​

How can one resist the irresistible?

In Christ...

​

 

[Philip_B]

Not only does it make debate a lot less frustrating, but if terms can be defined before the argument begins, I've noticed, the debate doesn't usually continue as long.

Free Will, as usually addressed in old Reformed circles, had to do with the bondage of the will of the unregenerate --not what usually gets fought over nowadays: the ability of persons to make undirected spontaneous decisions.

Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

Or perhaps not, looking at what has happened in this discussion thread?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Why? Is this law higher than God? Why not acknowledge that perhaps we live in a non deterministic universe? Everyone lives as if open theism is reality.

If you wish to sail into the never-neverland of such speculations you do so at the cost of reason and consistency. Agreed that God is the creator of, rather than subject to, reason, logic and "the way of things". Nevertheless, these issue forth from him and according to his very personality, or nature, and they rule his creation. We may not depart from them without departing from good sense. God doesn't both subject everything to cause and effect, and yet not this, as if to create an envelope where reason does not rule.

I grant Open Theism has at least consistency on its side. The problem it has is that its god is not omnipotent, but subject to his (apparently his --I don't know --to me they may as well start claiming there are other gods) creation.

Sorry, but God makes sense. To say that some of his creation is, because of his power, able to restrict his actions and decisions according to its decisions, relegating his knowledge to foresight (or in the case of Open Theism, to experience) is to make him less than omnipotent. That isn't God.

It makes just as much sense to say that First Cause need not be God, or that Infinite r-Regression of causes may be God. We do not operate as though Open Theism was fact. We operate as though God's love compels us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Or perhaps not, looking at what has happened in this discussion thread?

Agreed --on the other hand, you may notice the definition(s) has been sloughed, conflated and ignored for the most part. Besides, I'm not the sort to back away from a good fight, even if the weapons are blunted.