Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

Mark Quayle

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If you mean we are enabled to believe because of the Spirit revealing himself to us, then in that context faith is a gift. But if you mean we have no part in accepting the spirit's leading, that's nonsense and unbiblical. And all we need to know is Christ crucified and risen for us. We don't have to have all knowledge to choose to believe.
Well, I don't say we have no part in accepting the spirit's leading, though that is rather an awkward statement within the context of salvation, but our decision (whether done in response to the Spirit or not) does not effect our regeneration. The faith is not a decision. It is a fact. To decide to believe, is a 'logical subsequent' to what the Spirit has done in us, even if it comes, for all practical purposes, simultaneous with the regeneration the Spirit does in us.

And indeed we WILL decide to believe! (If indeed we have been regenerated).
 
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GenemZ

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The Bible teaches that faith is the gift, the result, of the indwelling Spirit of God.

How is faith given?

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:17​

"Hearing," in this case does not mean simply listening to words spoken. It means comprehending what is said.

As in...

"Do you understand?"

"Yes, I hear you!" (comprehension)

The gift we are given is found in the presentation of the Gospel!

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord. "
Rom 6:23​



They we either accept that free gift by believing...

Or? ........
 
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Mark Quayle

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How is faith given?

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:17​

"Hearing," in this case does not mean simply listening to words spoken. It means comprehending what is said.

As in...
"Do you understand?"

"Yes, I hear you!" (comprehension)

The gift we are given is found in the presentation of the Gospel!

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord. "
Rom 6:23​



They we either accept that free gift by believing...

Or? ........
I agree with all that. But not with what you assume to be implied.

Let me put it like this: What do you think makes it possible for the enemies of God to place their trust and love in him ("accept that free gift")?

How does hearing by the Word of God produce faith? —by the work of the Spirit of God in us.

And what we understand of the Gospel is important, but the notion that we understand well enough to cause true faith is, to me, ludicrous. We hardly know anything about the greatness of God, and the horror of sin, to understand what Christ undertook in redeeming us. We don't really even know what death is, I say, judging by the many references on this site so dependent on our temporal notions; we are ignorant. We also lack the constancy of mind and heart, and God-centered will, to keep our decision; we are silly and flippant. Salvific faith is not the work of man, or do you have something about which to boast in your own salvation?

Last, but not least, I think, you seem to take every 'step of this process' as a time sequence thing. You may agree the Spirit works on our hearts and minds bit by bit, while we are exposed to the Gospel, until something finally clicks and we ask him to come in. And then, only then, can he take up residence in us. And after that, only after that, can he regenerate us. Yet, the Bible shows everything else as the results of regeneration. The time sequence is irrelevant. But understand that we CANNOT understand the Gospel nor submit to it, nor do we want Christ, until he has given us new birth, changing our will and mind.

The Spirit does not work in addition to the Gospel, but WITH the Gospel.
 
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GenemZ

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I agree with all that. But not with what you assume to be implied.

Let me put it like this: What do you think makes it possible for the enemies of God to place their trust and love in him ("accept that free gift")?

What makes it possible is the same reality that believers who walk in the Spirit's control can know. Carnal believers can not know...

Your depravity resides in the body. Not in your soul. If the Spirit controls your flesh (by grace) your soul can be made free to think for itself without the tyranny of the flesh dominating over your real self - your soul.


For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For
what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not
practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I
agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it,
but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh)
nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform
what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but
the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is
no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."
Rom 7:14-20​

Its in your flesh that depravity dwells. Not your soul. The soul is simply a helpless victim of the flesh. God's grace power enabling makes the maturing believer able l to think with his soul free of the sin nature's dominance!

Those who are maturing in Christ will understand the meaning of the following truth!The depravity will not be allowed to reign over one's soul!


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh"
Gal 5:16​


Now, in drawing all men to salvation? God sovereignly administers grace power to control the flesh of the one being drawn. Grace makes it so his flesh will not hinder the soul, so that soul can make a real choice for, or against God.

Romans 1:18-22 shows how men, whom God has made it clear to, were still free to reject Him.

But, there is one difference when we reject while grace is present. When one rejects God while His grace is making the soul free to choose? The sin nature at that point was out of the picture. So, one can not say the rejection was sin. This is the difference between what constitutes 'sin,' and what constitutes 'evil.'

For it was by evil that Satan rejected the Lord, while yet in his unfallen state!

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity
was found in you."
Ezek 28:15​

God did not create Satan with a sin nature! Originally, evil was Satan's downfall... which then led to sin.


grace and peace! .........
 
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renniks

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And indeed we WILL decide to believe! (If indeed we have been regenerated).
Again you put regeneration before salvation and before faith. Not biblical.


31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
 
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GenemZ

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And indeed we WILL decide to believe! (If indeed we have been regenerated).

That is like saying....

We will decide to drink the water after we drank the water.

:scratch:
Calvinists muddy the waters! Its illogical thinking spoken as if one is being totally logical.

We can choose to accept we are saved after we believed. Not all do. Some people with a "works complex" will struggle with understanding that salvation is a free gift. These must choose to accept their salvation is real. Just the same though.. they are saved once they believed.


He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." Act 16:30-31a​

Now, for your version?


He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They replied, “be saved then believe in the Lord Jesus."

You know how insane that would have sounded?

I wonder if Calvinists stick by their illogical conclusion by justifying it with the following passage ..

(Trying to better understand how you defy logic without blinking)

"We are fools for Christ."

Is that how you maintain the illogical position Calvinism takes by some?

You have to be saved before you can believe?

Reality is...

God knew you were "about" to be saved before you believed!
 
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Mark Quayle

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Again you put regeneration before salvation and before faith. Not biblical.


31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
That is like saying....

We will decide to drink the water after we drank the water.

:scratch:
Calvinists muddy the waters! Its illogical thinking spoken as if one is being totally logical.

We can choose to accept we are saved after we believed. Not all do. Some people with a "works complex" will struggle with understanding that salvation is a free gift. These must choose to accept their salvation is real. Just the same though.. they are saved once they believed.


He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." Act 16:30-31a​

Now, for your version?


He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They replied, “be saved then believe in the Lord Jesus."

You know how insane that would have sounded?

I wonder if Calvinists stick by their illogical conclusion by justifying it with the following passage ..

(Trying to better understand how you defy logic without blinking)

"We are fools for Christ."

Is that how you maintain the illogical position Calvinism takes by some?

You have to be saved before you can believe?

Reality is...

God knew you were "about" to be saved before you believed!



Once again: And how do you think a slave to sin, enemy of God, is able to believe salvifically?
 
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GenemZ

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Once again: And how do you think a slave to sin, enemy of God, is able to believe salvifically?

Able to.. because.. When the Lord of the land binds the slave master (you flesh) and asks the temporarily freed slave (your soul) to choose whom he wished to serve.

Those who adore evil will always choose the slave master, for the slave master gives him dirty deeds to do that he enjoys partaking in. The choice to reject salvation was freely made. It just confounds you that someone would prefer evil.
 
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GenemZ

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Once again: And how do you think a slave to sin, enemy of God, is able to believe salvifically?
They are believing in Jesus Christ... Not about salvation. The Cross is mentioned concerning Jesus Christ, and is central to the message. But many responding positively are responding to the beauty of his person... Salvation gets included in the package when they believe in Jesus Christ.

Note: It does not say... "Believe in salvation and you will be saved."

Believing in Jesus brings with it salvation.

God is concerned with what we think of His Son. Not, salvation. Though salvation is mentioned in the witnessing of Christ, our attitude towards Jesus is the concern with the Father.

Salvation we can not really get a grasp on until after the transformation of regeneration shocks us into the state of supernatural consciousness.
 
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GenemZ

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I agree with all that. But not with what you assume to be implied.

Let me put it like this: What do you think makes it possible for the enemies of God to place their trust and love in him ("accept that free gift")?

The free gift FOLLOWS the verification that we are one of his own.

Gifts are awaiting those who are revealed to be His own.

How are gift recipients to be verified?

We are nor "earning" the gift.

When we believe? We are verifying that we are on the "list" of those qualified to be one of His own. Once that is established, we are given our gift, and gifts.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Note: It does not say... "Believe in salvation and you will be saved."
Neither did I.

What I said was believe "salvifically". In other words, the faith that saves...
 
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GenemZ

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Neither did I.

What I said was believe "salvifically". In other words, the faith that saves...

Faith comes from hearing the Word of God. From hearing the gospel.

Its the faith that makes us able to figure out what is happening in being saved and why it happened. Faith (having the Word of God) gives us what we need to be stabilized. Stabilized as we enter into a new supernatural state of being.

We should study the Bible after we are saved to better understand what it is that is taking us over! The Word of God defines our new state of being.

We hunger for the spiritual milk of the Word (faith) like a newborn seeks his mother's breast. New instincts should kick in. A hunger goes into effect to understand what we have become, is activated in order to become stabilized. False doctrine equates to malnourishment of an infant or child....
 
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