Debating the Trinity

[Butch5]

Confused about a couple things- one is the very statement of purpose of this CCT forum
I wonder if it is even kosher, per that statement of purpose, to even BE DISCUSSING NON-TRINITARIANISM AT ALL in this forum
Ambiguous in that statement of purpose that non-trinitarianism has to be discussed in 2 other forums at CF and not CCT

The other thing is that Hagion Pneuma, or other Greek terms meaning Holy Spirit--

(Like " when HE the spirit of truth shall come...")

I don't think it's TRUE THAT HP REFERENCES IN NT ARE ALWAYS NEUTER

They are to my knowledge BOTH MASCULINE AND NEUTER, and masculine in the majority

If someone calls HP a HE one time and an IT another time-- they are only doing what the New Testament ITSELF DOES!!

I haven't argued a non Trinitarian point. I've argued in how it is understood.

You're welcome to to present some evidence.

 

[Butch5]

"Majestic plural"
"Not believed until 5th century"
"Holy Spirit always neuter..."

BWA-HAH-HAHHAHHAHHAH-HAH!!!

I see you've given some deep theological thought to the subject.

 

[Anto9us]

Way earlier than 5th century

This is not supposed to be a Safe Haven for pushing non-trinitarianism

Especially pushing it with non-factual claims about history and original languages

 

[Anto9us]

You brought it up, Butch, YOU "prove it"

That the Holy Spirit is "always neuter"
In the Greek

That the idea of the Trinity didnt exist til 5th century

Rubbish

 

[Butch5]

Way earlier than 5th century

This is not supposed to be a Safe Haven for pushing non-trinitarianism

Especially pushing it with non-factual claims about history and original languages

Your opinion isn't evidence.

As far as non Trinitarian doctrine, did you read what I wrote? According to the rules, in order to post here one has to adhere to the Nicene Creed. I do. I have been arguing just what the Nicene Creed says, there is one God the Father. The idea that there is a being called God who consists of three persons is NOT Nicene theology. It is found in the Athanasian Creed from around 450 AD.

Nicene Creed:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Revised Nicene Creed 381 AD.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

Athansasian Creed:
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.


As you can see the Athanasian Creed differs quite a bit from the Nicene Creed.

 

[Butch5]

You brought it up, Butch, YOU "prove it"

That the Holy Spirit is "always neuter"
In the Greek

That the idea of the Trinity didnt exist til 5th century

Rubbish

So your going to challenge what I said but refuse to do the research. Obviously you're not paying attention to what I've said. I didn't say the Trinity didn't exist until the 5th century. I said the idea that there is a being called God who consists of three persons is a product of the 5th century. Tertullian is credited with coining the term "Trinity" and he wrote in the late 100's early 200's AD. so obviously the idea of a Trinity was around before the 5th century. The question is how did Tertullian and those other Christians understand the term "Trinity"? What did it mean to them? I can tell you it didn't mean one being called God who consisted of three persons to them.

 

[Victor E.]

About the only piece of scripture I could find when searching the bible that would even support the idea of the Trinity is (John 10:30) when Jesus said "I and my Father are one". But, in the same chapter a few verses later in John 10:36 Jesus says "Say yet of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?"

In other words, Jesus said "I am not claiming to be God. I am claiming to be the Son of God."

In fact, nowhere else in the bible did Jesus ever apparently claim to be God. Throughout the entire bible he claimed to be the Son of God. Also, in (Matthew 3:16-17) we learn that the Spirit of God came down from heaven and said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Well, if Jesus is our God Yahweh how can he be in two different places at once first of all. To claim that the baby Jesus is his son? I know, our LORD is all powerful and can do anything and to split into three would not be difficult for him. But, it just sounds fishy to me. Also, why would he claim "This is my son" and not say "He his me in human flesh" or "He is God" or say really ANYTHING that would support the Trinity?

Also, why would he in every single Bible verse where he speaks about the LORD would he call him Father if he was the same entity in a different Flesh? Why would Jesus say over and over again that the Father was greater than he was if he was God? (John 14:28)

If Jesus was God why would he be separate from God in Revelation? (Revelation 1:14-18) and the Father appears throughout Chapter 4.

It's very clear from Chapters 1-4 of Revelation that Jesus and the LORD are NOT equal. None of the 24 elders in Revelation 4:10 were worshiping Jesus they were worshiping the Father and the Father alone.

Also, if the LORD and Jesus were one why are they going to come down to the earth in two separate forms? And why would Jesus need to rule on the earth with us for 10,000 years? And then we worship the Father forevermore?

Why would Jesus state that the Father and the Father ALONE should be worshiped? (Matthew 4:10)

Why would Jesus state that nobody else on this earth is "Father" But, the LORD? (Matthew 23:9)

Also why would it say in the Bible over and over and over again that NOBODY is Equal to God? The only entity equal to the Father is, THE FATHER!

Yet, because of the belief in the Trinity so many Christians worship Jesus. It's even in almost every single worship song that exists today. An age, that's been proven over and over again to be corrupted? An age that Jesus warned us against (Matthew 7:15)

Also, why is Jesus always referred to in the bible as the Lord? And the Father is always referred to as the LORD? The two words are completely different. In other words, they're two completely different entities.

I'm not saying that Jesus never performed miracles. But, David also performed a miracle because he was blessed by God. Are we now going to claim that David is a god? We see miracles every single day! Are we all gods? The bible is very clear that we aren't. In fact, our desire to be gods in the first place, is part of what corrupted humanity in the first place (Genesis 3:5).

Who's to say that our LORD didn't bless Jesus in the same way? Just because Christ resurrected the dead doesn't automatically make him a god!

Paul also resurrected the dead! Are we going to claim that Paul is a god now too? Also, why would he say that he will be by the Lord's side in heaven after his resurrection if he was God?

Also, something that I'm having a really hard time accepting. If Jesus was God, why did he have to pray to HIMSELF asking for guidance and direction? Jesus was an EXTREMELY religous person who devoted and completely dedicated his life to the Father! He prayed to the Father constantly! If Jesus was the Father or any part of the Father why would he pray to HIMSELF asking what to do! If Jesus was God in the flesh he would have known exactly what to do and would have just did it and not prayed to himself for guidance at all!

So many things, just Biblically aren't adding up here. Not in the basic teachings of the LORD.

I'm not claiming to be right, in fact the Trinity is a large belief in Christianity. And, on these forums. I just think that, something just isn't right here. I'm sorry, it just isn't right. So many Bible verses contradict the Trinity that It's impossible for me to believe in. And I personally, will never believe in it. Not when the Bible gives so much evidence to the contrary. It seems to be the opinion of man and not the opinion of the LORD and certainly not of Jesus. Jesus always called himself the Son of God, and made that fact abundantly clear throughout the Bible.

My worship belongs to the LORD and the LORD alone. I pray to the LORD and the LORD alone. I hold Jesus in high respect but to me? Jesus is not God, is not equal to God, and in no way, shape, or form, is a god. This almost reminds me of Buddhism and many Buddhists today treating Buddha like he was a god. Buddha NEVER claimed to be a god nor did he want to be worshiped as one. Buddha spent his life looking FOR God.

The notion that this is controversial is saddening. The Father is God. Jesus was the Father manifest in man's weakness but never sinned. Holy Spirit is an embodiment of Gods Will. His direct messenger who lives in all who are in Christ. Christ dwells in our hearts. It would take ages to show all "scriptural evidence" but here is some since many will ask. 3 in 1. They are all the same God with different purposes. God does not operate in dimensions of the World. "Heresy" and "Blasphemy" I know. The Pharisees said the same about Jesus...

"Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." Jude 1:5 (ESV).

John 17:1-26 Jesus prays for all believers.

 

[Anto9us]

To those who are NOT trying to hijack the very term "Nicene Christian" as used here at CF:

We are discussing the English phrase "the Holy Spirit" in connection to the idea of The Trinity

Spirit is PNEUMA in Greek- it's a neuter noun, like RUACH in Hebrew is a feminine noun. That's what kind of nouns they are grammatically, never changes

They are MODIFIED by ADJECTIVES, the adjectives can be either masculine, feminine or neuter.

Agios is the Greek masculine adjective used over 220 times in the NT in the phrase "Holy Spirit"
Agion is the neuter form of the same adjective (holy)-- used maybe a dozen times in the NT in the phrase "Holy Spirit"
Agia would be the feminine form of the adjective, i dunno that it's ever used in NT for phrase Holy Spirit

So do the math, some variations for versions of manuscripts, but roughly 220-something times "holy spirit" is with masculine adjective; to maybe 11 or 12 times in NT where a specifically neuter adjective "holy" modifies the inherently neuter noun PNEUMA (spirit)

The definite article is rarely used with the whole phrase:

Though Bullinger makes a big deal out of it's use, that's a small tangent

My point is, NT authors use a specifically masculine adjective (agios, "hagios" in transliteration) in forming the phrase HOLY SPIRIT in a ratio of 20 TO ONE

To show us that, YEAH, the Holy Spirit is a HE
Though its not blasphemy to call him an IT-- Bible does so 11 or 12 times in NT, grammatically, I mean

 

[Anto9us]

Also, the final form of the Nicene Creed says of this Holy Spirit:

"With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified"

Sounds like they are all three GOD to me...

That is NICENE CHRISTIANITY

Supposedly the STANDARD here at CF

 

[Anto9us]

"Persona" is a Greek word that came out of their DRAMA

A persona was a MASK the actor wore to do two things
1 Identify his character in the play
2 Amplify his voice, there was like a built-in megaphone in the "persona"

I say ACTOR and HIS because there were no female.'actresses' in early greek drama, a female character was played by a man with feminine features on the persona

 

[Anto9us]

The term PERSONA was used by early Christian writers as they were explaining the nature and power of THE GODHEAD, which Paul said in Romans could be seen all along
Explaining TRINITY even before Tertullian used the term TRINITAS, a Latin word
Origen, Basil (along with his brother Gregory and his other brother Gregory)
These guys were far from popular with the Church after Constantine, but wrote explanations both of the pre-existence of Christ and explanations of Trinity

 

[Anto9us]

Anyone can go to blueletterbible.org and search on "holy" and "spirit"

I have nothing to 'prove' - no "evidence" to present

Nicene Christianity is not on trial here;
Nor is it up for "re-definition"

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

You still have the problem. God did not sin, man did. So, you still have someone punished who didn't sin. Paul said the wages of sin is death. Every man sins and every man dies. If every man receives the wages of his sins, what is the punishment that Jesus suffered?

That is the whole point. A sinless man suffering for the sinner. It is the wronged party, God, sufferring for man and hence forgiving them while maintaining justice. Your objection is only relevant if you do not take the whole conception of Atonement into account or deny the trinity, neither of which I do.

Except that that is a logical contradiction. One being cannot consist of three beings. The definition of person is a human being. Note the word being. Three persons are three beings.

Not at all. It is not a logical fallacy of any form, after all the Church Fathers were trained in Aristotlean logic.
Its like the US government. Three separate branches, but all are a part of the Government. The Administrative is no less the government than the Legislative, but all are part of one Government. This is how English works.
Another example is multicellular organisms. One cell is still a living organism, like a single cell bacterium would be, but multiple cells make up a living creature. In essence they are colonies of millions of beings cooperating to form one being.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The notion that this is controversial is saddening. The Father is God. Jesus was the Father manifest in man's weakness but never sinned. Holy Spirit is an embodiment of Gods Will. His direct messenger who lives in all who are in Christ. Christ dwells in our hearts. It would take ages to show all "scriptural evidence" but here is some since many will ask. 3 in 1. They are all the same God with different purposes. God does not operate in dimensions of the World. "Heresy" and "Blasphemy" I know. The Pharisees said the same about Jesus...

"Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." Jude 1:5 (ESV).

John 17:1-26 Jesus prays for all believers.

John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17, John's First Epistle, Romans 8, Matthew 28, etc. have very clear references to God in Three Persons.

 

[Victor E.]

Interesting to note the word "TRINITY" is nowhere found to be in Gods Word. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it is a man-made word created with the hope to better explain the unity of Jesus, Father, and Holy Spirit.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Interesting to note the word "TRINITY" is nowhere found to be in Gods Word. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it is a man-made word created with the hope to better explain the unity of Jesus, Father, and Holy Spirit.

It's often said that while the word Trinity in English is not found in the Bible, yet the truth it describes most certainly is in the Bible.

 

[Victor E.]

It's often said that while the word Trinity in English is not found in the Bible, yet the truth it describes most certainly is in the Bible.

I can see the truth in that.

 

[Anto9us]

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Whatever "Atonement theory" you want to call it- sure looks like THE SINLESS ONE DIED FOR THE SINNERS

And Yahweh has laid on him
The iniquity of us all

 

[Radrook]

The modern understanding of the Trinity is not Biblical. It comes from the Athanasian Creed. It's from around 450 AD. The early Christians held to the Nicene Creed which states, 'I believe in one God, the Father. In the second line it says, 'And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God'

The early Christians didn't believe that there was a being called God who consisted of 3 separate persons.

The extremely strong averse Jewish reaction to the doctrine when it did finally emerge indicates that it was alien to Israel's concept of God as revealed via holy spirit in the OT.

True, at no time during the first century did the Jews accuse the Christians of promoting a Trinity doctrine for the simple reason that it did not exist. Had the early Christians been proposing it during that time, the Jews would have immediately pointed out their doctrinal error and condemned it as heresy. In short, their silence speaks for itself.

 

[miknik5]

About the only piece of scripture I could find when searching the bible that would even support the idea of the Trinity is (John 10:30) when Jesus said "I and my Father are one". But, in the same chapter a few verses later in John 10:36 Jesus says "Say yet of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?"

In other words, Jesus said "I am not claiming to be God. I am claiming to be the Son of God."

In fact, nowhere else in the bible did Jesus ever apparently claim to be God. Throughout the entire bible he claimed to be the Son of God. Also, in (Matthew 3:16-17) we learn that the Spirit of God came down from heaven and said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Well, if Jesus is our God Yahweh how can he be in two different places at once first of all. To claim that the baby Jesus is his son? I know, our LORD is all powerful and can do anything and to split into three would not be difficult for him. But, it just sounds fishy to me. Also, why would he claim "This is my son" and not say "He his me in human flesh" or "He is God" or say really ANYTHING that would support the Trinity?

Also, why would he in every single Bible verse where he speaks about the LORD would he call him Father if he was the same entity in a different Flesh? Why would Jesus say over and over again that the Father was greater than he was if he was God? (John 14:28)

If Jesus was God why would he be separate from God in Revelation? (Revelation 1:14-18) and the Father appears throughout Chapter 4.

It's very clear from Chapters 1-4 of Revelation that Jesus and the LORD are NOT equal. None of the 24 elders in Revelation 4:10 were worshiping Jesus they were worshiping the Father and the Father alone.

Also, if the LORD and Jesus were one why are they going to come down to the earth in two separate forms? And why would Jesus need to rule on the earth with us for 10,000 years? And then we worship the Father forevermore?

Why would Jesus state that the Father and the Father ALONE should be worshiped? (Matthew 4:10)

Why would Jesus state that nobody else on this earth is "Father" But, the LORD? (Matthew 23:9)

Also why would it say in the Bible over and over and over again that NOBODY is Equal to God? The only entity equal to the Father is, THE FATHER!

Yet, because of the belief in the Trinity so many Christians worship Jesus. It's even in almost every single worship song that exists today. An age, that's been proven over and over again to be corrupted? An age that Jesus warned us against (Matthew 7:15)

Also, why is Jesus always referred to in the bible as the Lord? And the Father is always referred to as the LORD? The two words are completely different. In other words, they're two completely different entities.

I'm not saying that Jesus never performed miracles. But, David also performed a miracle because he was blessed by God. Are we now going to claim that David is a god? We see miracles every single day! Are we all gods? The bible is very clear that we aren't. In fact, our desire to be gods in the first place, is part of what corrupted humanity in the first place (Genesis 3:5).

Who's to say that our LORD didn't bless Jesus in the same way? Just because Christ resurrected the dead doesn't automatically make him a god!

Paul also resurrected the dead! Are we going to claim that Paul is a god now too? Also, why would he say that he will be by the Lord's side in heaven after his resurrection if he was God?

Also, something that I'm having a really hard time accepting. If Jesus was God, why did he have to pray to HIMSELF asking for guidance and direction? Jesus was an EXTREMELY religous person who devoted and completely dedicated his life to the Father! He prayed to the Father constantly! If Jesus was the Father or any part of the Father why would he pray to HIMSELF asking what to do! If Jesus was God in the flesh he would have known exactly what to do and would have just did it and not prayed to himself for guidance at all!

So many things, just Biblically aren't adding up here. Not in the basic teachings of the LORD.

I'm not claiming to be right, in fact the Trinity is a large belief in Christianity. And, on these forums. I just think that, something just isn't right here. I'm sorry, it just isn't right. So many Bible verses contradict the Trinity that It's impossible for me to believe in. And I personally, will never believe in it. Not when the Bible gives so much evidence to the contrary. It seems to be the opinion of man and not the opinion of the LORD and certainly not of Jesus. Jesus always called himself the Son of God, and made that fact abundantly clear throughout the Bible.

My worship belongs to the LORD and the LORD alone. I pray to the LORD and the LORD alone. I hold Jesus in high respect but to me? Jesus is not God, is not equal to God, and in no way, shape, or form, is a god. This almost reminds me of Buddhism and many Buddhists today treating Buddha like he was a god. Buddha NEVER claimed to be a god nor did he want to be worshiped as one. Buddha spent his life looking FOR God.

Do you have the same spirit as your father? Your a son aren't you? Can you claim that whoever sees you sees my father?

That would mean you are an exact representation of your father and all that your father does you do as well. And....you only say what your father has given you to say