Debating the Trinity

[Gregory Thompson]

So if the voice of God could be heard walking .. perhaps this is the word that was there in the beginning.

 

[Butch5]

God doesn't need payment. That is not the point thereof. It is about maintaining Justice, for it would be unjust if evil actions went unpunished.

If that's the case then it leaves no place for forgiveness.

What are you talking about? The council of Nicaea established the Trinitarian position which you call Athanasian.

Read the Athanasian Creed and read the Nicene Creed. People claim to follow the Nicene Creed, but in reality many believe the Athanasian Creed. The Athanasian Creed says there is one God in persons. The Nicene Creed states, 'I believe in one God the Father.' The two are quite different.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

If that's the case then it leaves no place for forgiveness.

No, because only the wronged party can forgive, ie God. Therefore to maintain forgiveness and Justice, God must take the just punishment upon himself to forgive us, which requires a trinity as I explained in earlier posts on this thread.

Read the Athanasian Creed and read the Nicene Creed. People claim to follow the Nicene Creed, but in reality many believe the Athanasian Creed. The Athanasian Creed says there is one God in persons. The Nicene Creed states, 'I believe in one God the Father.' The two are quite different.

I understand what you mean, but the Nicene creed does not say that Jesus and the Holy Ghost aren't part of a triune God. You can hold both the Nicene and Athanasian creeds at the same time.

 

[Anto9us]

Indeed, the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer FORMERLY held the Athanasian Creed in equal status as Nicene and Apostles's Creeds, but last revision of Prayer Book relegated Athanasian Creed to a section of "historical documents" and Nicene and Apostles creeds stand together as top status among "creeds"

I don't believe that Athanasian Creed was WRITTEN BY ATHANASIUS, and sometimes I feel it is more like a CURSE than a CREED-- yes, it expresses Same theology basically as Nicene, but it is full of so many ANATHEMAS--

It is just NEGATIVE to me, and not equal to Nicene or Apostles...

Apostles Creed is supposedly based on THE OLD ROMAN SYMBOL, going back to about 100 A.D.

That would make it the oldest creed we have in development
I think Nicene was first written about 325 AD, updated in 381

 

[Butch5]

No, because only the wronged party can forgive, ie God. Therefore to maintain forgiveness and Justice, God must take the just punishment upon himself to forgive us, which requires a trinity as I explained in earlier posts on this thread.

God didn't take the punishment upon Himself. The wages of sin is death. All men sin and all men die. Thus they receive the wages of their sin.

However, it wasn't the Father that died, it was Jesus.

It's not justice to punish one person for the sins of another. It could be argued that that is actually innustice. Justice mean equity.

I understand what you mean, but the Nicene creed does not say that Jesus and the Holy Ghost aren't part of a triune God. You can hold both the Nicene and Athanasian creeds at the same time.

What do you mean by a triune God. If it's a being called God who consists of three other persons then yes, it does. When people call God, "He" they are using a singular pronoun. That is a single individual not a conglomerate of persons. The Nicene Creed has one God, the Father. The Athanasian Creed has one God who consists of three perosns.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

It's not justice to punish one person for the sins of another. It could be argued that that is actually innustice. Justice mean equity.

Exactly. Hence the need for a Trinity or God would be unjust.

What do you mean by a triune God. If it's a being called God who consists of three other persons then yes, it does. When people call God, "He" they are using a singular pronoun. That is a single individual not a conglomerate of persons. The Nicene Creed has one God, the Father. The Athanasian Creed has one God who consists of three perosns.

Not really, for it is one God in three persons and hence uses a singular pronoun. It is not three separate beings, but One.

 

[Root of Jesse]

When God says, in Genesis "Let us create Man in our own image..." Who was God speaking to? Also, in Genesis, Chapter 1: v 2, it refers to a mighty wind...Is this not the same as in Psalm 104 "Lord, send down your spirit, and renew the face of the earth." That would be the Holy Spirit. There you have three persons but one God...God the Father is speaking to His Son, and his Holy Spirit is that mighty wind.

 

[Neostarwcc]

It is True God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit are one. Like you said hopefully one day you will see it.

But, here's a question that definitely needs to be answered for me to even BEGIN to believe in the Trinity.

Isn't it true that Jesus said that few will enter the kingdom of Heaven? Didn't Jesus say that he will reject a lot of people and say "I never knew you?" So that must mean a majority of the world right now at this very moment and throughout history since he died, are doing something wrong and that will cause MANY people to curse his name.

Well, what has been the largest believe since around 350 AD when MAN AFTER Jesus and his apostles died and the original Church started a bunch of MEN got together, looked at the Bible and said "OH! This must be the most logical conclusion! Because, the Bible has many hidden holes in it and never should be read for what it is! And what God our Father Yahweh has taught it as, the complete, perfect, inerrant word of God!"

Let us just FORSAKE everything Christ said and just go with the Teeniest and Tiniest shred of evidence that Jesus is a God or is THE God. It is THE largest belief in Christianity.

Jesus also hinted that the truth would be in the Gospel of John (99.9% of the reason why so many Christians believe in the Trinity)

Well, here's an eye opener for you. What's in Chapter 3 of the Book of John? I encourage you to read it. Literally for what it says. And guess what? It makes the ENTIRE Bible make sense! And it sets all of our souls FREE! The ENTIRETY of Chapter 3 exactly as it is written.

What does it say? That we have to be born again to enter the kingdom of God.

So, you condemning me to hellfire is NOT a part of the basic Gospel. Because, Jesus said whosoever is born again, WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE! And he even tells us what we have to have to be born again. Complete, and uttermost faith in him. That he is the SON of God, NOT God the Son.

The concept of the Trinity only clouds the Bible. Because, it makes the entirety of our Salvation so confusing! When the Entirety of Chapter 3 of the Book of John Makes EVERYTHING in the Bible make sense. Also, John 17. In John 17 Jesus says that the Father is in him, yes. But, he also again names himself as the SON of God. Not God. And also says that the Father is in ALL of us. So, if just the Fact that the Father is in Jesus makes him a God, than guess what? We're ALL Gods! Only, were not. And that's what corrupted humanity in the FIRST place! We wanted to be Gods! (Genesis 3:5) There is only ONE God. The Father. Jesus has made that EXTREMELY clear throughout the Bible.

There is no Trinity. And until you can answer that, there never will be a Trinity. Begone Satan, I have no use for you anymore. I refuse to be blinded from the Gospel that has been taught throughout the inerrent, holy, and perfect Bible.

When God says, in Genesis "Let us create Man in our own image..." Who was God speaking to? Also, in Genesis, Chapter 1: v 2, it refers to a mighty wind...Is this not the same as in Psalm 104 "Lord, send down your spirit, and renew the face of the earth." That would be the Holy Spirit. There you have three persons but one God...God the Father is speaking to His Son, and his Holy Spirit is that mighty wind.

His Son Jesus Christ. But, that doesn't make Jesus God or a part of him. That just makes him, his loyal and faithful Son who helped his Father save humanity.

 

[newlightseven]

I fear for those who deny Jesus, and The Holy Spirit. Even the demons believe he is the Son of God and know the power of the spirit and they don't have salvation. Jesus is the ONLY way. How can one expect to have the spirit when they outright deny who the spirit is and it's power? You have to have the spirit to be born again.. and you have to have Jesus to be saved. If anyone deny who they are they are on very shaky ground and I would even say they are not born again. Even Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet

Sorry if anyone is hurt by this but you need to know the truth.

For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God."

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

"I and the Father are one."

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.


For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.


Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

 

[Butch5]

When God says, in Genesis "Let us create Man in our own image..." Who was God speaking to? Also, in Genesis, Chapter 1: v 2, it refers to a mighty wind...Is this not the same as in Psalm 104 "Lord, send down your spirit, and renew the face of the earth." That would be the Holy Spirit. There you have three persons but one God...God the Father is speaking to His Son, and his Holy Spirit is that mighty wind.

When God said that He used what is known as a Majestic Plural. If you Google "Majestic Plural" you'll see that other languages also use it. It's also used in the Bible if false gods, yet that are said to be triune.

Just because there is mentioned the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, does not necessitate they are three persons in one being called God. As I said, that is a logical contradiction.

 

[newlightseven]

I just edited by previous post with a few verses in the bible.. I will pray that those who do not acknowledge The Lord as he is (the father, the son, and the holy spirit) that may their eyes be opened.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I fear for those who deny Jesus, and The Holy Spirit. Even the demons believe he is the Son of God and know the power of the spirit and they don't have salvation. Jesus is the ONLY way. How can one expect to have the spirit when they outright deny who the spirit is and it's power? You have to have the spirit to be born again.. and you have to have Jesus to be saved. If anyone deny who they are they are on very shaky ground and I would even say they are not born again. Even Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet

Sorry if anyone is hurt by this but you need to know the truth.

For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God."

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

"I and the Father are one."

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.


For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.


Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

There is only one unforgivable sin. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Which, is defined in Mark 3:29-30 and Matthew 12.

Mark 3:29-30
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Matthew 12 31-32

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

We learn here that the only and the ONLY way to Blasphemize against the holy spirit is to say that it is unclean. And blasphemy against the holy spirit is not as you claim it is. But, to call the Holy Spirit power from Satan. Teaching people that if they deny that Jesus is God, is blasphemy against the spirit is against the perfect gospel. The ONLY and I repeat, the ONLY unforgivable sin, is saying that the holy spirit is from the devil. ALL other sins will be forgiven. If denying Jesus is God is even a sin, which it Isn't.

Nowhere and I repeat, nowhere in the inerrent and perfect word of God, does it say that to NOT call Jesus, God is in fact an unforgivable sin. In fact, it says the Opposite if you actually bothered to read and heed all of the words in the bible. To say so, is blasphemy and you must repent to the LORD for that. The holy spirit is not with you and you are not born again, therefore you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. To become born again you have to believe that Jesus will forgive ALL sins except the one I listed above and that Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven. That Jesus is the Son of God as it says in the inerrent, complete, and Holy Bible. You have to see past all deceptions of Satan and the Trinity, is a deception of Satan. I just proved it to you. I've been proving it the entire topic as has Butch5 but, you're not listening to us. You and all else on these forums can heed our words, or you cannot. It's your choice.

 

[newlightseven]

You can't be saved without believing in Jesus so my point stands and if you believe that Jesus is the son of God then these verses should prove my point

For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

Thus I have proven you can't believe that Jesus is the Son of God without believing he is God. If you don't believe in Jesus there is no salvation whether or not you don't think you are blaspheming the holy spirit

But I don't think you were looking for evidence nor debate nor proof.. you just refuse to hear so I will leave you be

 

[Butch5]

I fear for those who deny Jesus, and The Holy Spirit. Even the demons believe he is the Son of God and know the power of the spirit and they don't have salvation. Jesus is the ONLY way. How can one expect to have the spirit when they outright deny who the spirit is and it's power? You have to have the spirit to be born again.. and you have to have Jesus to be saved. If anyone deny who they are they are on very shaky ground and I would even say they are not born again. Even Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet

Sorry if anyone is hurt by this but you need to know the truth.

For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God."

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

"I and the Father are one."

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.


For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.


Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

No one is denying Jesus or the Spirit. What is being denied is this erroneous idea that the three are one being. Take note to your post here. It seems you yourself are conflicted. You said above that Jesus is the Son of God. If it's one being how can He be His own Son? That doesn't make any sense. You also referred to the Spirit as It rather than He. If you believe that there is one being that consists of three persons the Spirit should be He, not it. However, you are correct in using It. All through the Scriptures the Spirit is referred to in the neuter gender. The neuter gender is used for things, not persons. The only place the Spirit is referred to as He, is when Jesus calls the Spirit the Comforter. The reason for this, however, is grammatical. The Greek grammar requires that the pronouns match the nouns in gender. The word comforter in Greek is a masculine noun, therefore, the pronoun must match it and be in the masculine gender.

Let me ask you a question. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says there one being called God that consists of three persons. The idea comes from inferences. It was not believed until the 5th century. Here is my question, why do you believe is an idea that isn't stated in the Bible and isn't found in church history until the 5th century?

 

[Butch5]

You can't be saved without believing in Jesus so my point stands and if you believe that Jesus is the son of God then these verses should prove my point

For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

Thus I have proven you can't believe that Jesus is the Son of God without believing he is God. If you don't believe in Jesus there is no salvation whether or not you don't think you are blaspheming the holy spirit

But I don't think you were looking for evidence nor debate nor proof.. you just refuse to hear so I will leave you be

What the Jews thought about Jesus does prove anything. Jesus could forgive sins because the Father gave Him that authority. Jesus Himself said that the words He spoke were the Father's. So, when Jesus forgave sins it was because the Father was forgiving them. Likewise the miracles, Jesus said he could do nothing of Himself, but rather it was the Father who was doing the works.

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (Jn. 14:10 KJV)

It was the Father dwelling in Jesus via the Holy Spirit that was giving Him the words and doing the works.

 

[Butch5]

Exactly. Hence the need for a Trinity or God would be unjust.

You still have the problem. God did not sin, man did. So, you still have someone punished who didn't sin. Paul said the wages of sin is death. Every man sins and every man dies. If every man receives the wages of his sins, what is the punishment that Jesus suffered?

Not really, for it is one God in three persons and hence uses a singular pronoun. It is not three separate beings, but One.

Except that that is a logical contradiction. One being cannot consist of three beings. The definition of person is a human being. Note the word being. Three persons are three beings.

 

[Anto9us]

Confused about a couple things- one is the very statement of purpose of this CCT forum
I wonder if it is even kosher, per that statement of purpose, to even BE DISCUSSING NON-TRINITARIANISM AT ALL in this forum
Ambiguous in that statement of purpose that non-trinitarianism has to be discussed in 2 other forums at CF and not CCT

The other thing is that Hagion Pneuma, or other Greek terms meaning Holy Spirit--

(Like " when HE the spirit of truth shall come...")

I don't think it's TRUE THAT HP REFERENCES IN NT ARE ALWAYS NEUTER

They are to my knowledge BOTH MASCULINE AND NEUTER, and masculine in the majority

If someone calls HP a HE one time and an IT another time-- they are only doing what the New Testament ITSELF DOES!!

 

[Anto9us]

It is also NOT TRUE that the idea of a triune God was "not around til the 5th century"

That is blatantly false.

 

[Butch5]

It is also NOT TRUE that the idea of a triune God was "not around til the 5th century"

That is blatantly false.

Did you read what I said? I said the idea that there is a being called God who consists of three persons is an idea from the 5ht century.

 

[Anto9us]

"Majestic plural"
"Not believed until 5th century"
"Holy Spirit always neuter..."

BWA-HAH-HAHHAHHAHHAH-HAH!!!