Debating the Trinity

[Neostarwcc]

About the only piece of scripture I could find when searching the bible that would even support the idea of the Trinity is (John 10:30) when Jesus said "I and my Father are one". But, in the same chapter a few verses later in John 10:36 Jesus says "Say yet of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?"

In other words, Jesus said "I am not claiming to be God. I am claiming to be the Son of God."

In fact, nowhere else in the bible did Jesus ever apparently claim to be God. Throughout the entire bible he claimed to be the Son of God. Also, in (Matthew 3:16-17) we learn that the Spirit of God came down from heaven and said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Well, if Jesus is our God Yahweh how can he be in two different places at once first of all. To claim that the baby Jesus is his son? I know, our LORD is all powerful and can do anything and to split into three would not be difficult for him. But, it just sounds fishy to me. Also, why would he claim "This is my son" and not say "He his me in human flesh" or "He is God" or say really ANYTHING that would support the Trinity?

Also, why would he in every single Bible verse where he speaks about the LORD would he call him Father if he was the same entity in a different Flesh? Why would Jesus say over and over again that the Father was greater than he was if he was God? (John 14:28)

If Jesus was God why would he be separate from God in Revelation? (Revelation 1:14-18) and the Father appears throughout Chapter 4.

It's very clear from Chapters 1-4 of Revelation that Jesus and the LORD are NOT equal. None of the 24 elders in Revelation 4:10 were worshiping Jesus they were worshiping the Father and the Father alone.

Also, if the LORD and Jesus were one why are they going to come down to the earth in two separate forms? And why would Jesus need to rule on the earth with us for 10,000 years? And then we worship the Father forevermore?

Why would Jesus state that the Father and the Father ALONE should be worshiped? (Matthew 4:10)

Why would Jesus state that nobody else on this earth is "Father" But, the LORD? (Matthew 23:9)

Also why would it say in the Bible over and over and over again that NOBODY is Equal to God? The only entity equal to the Father is, THE FATHER!

Yet, because of the belief in the Trinity so many Christians worship Jesus. It's even in almost every single worship song that exists today. An age, that's been proven over and over again to be corrupted? An age that Jesus warned us against (Matthew 7:15)

Also, why is Jesus always referred to in the bible as the Lord? And the Father is always referred to as the LORD? The two words are completely different. In other words, they're two completely different entities.

I'm not saying that Jesus never performed miracles. But, David also performed a miracle because he was blessed by God. Are we now going to claim that David is a god? We see miracles every single day! Are we all gods? The bible is very clear that we aren't. In fact, our desire to be gods in the first place, is part of what corrupted humanity in the first place (Genesis 3:5).

Who's to say that our LORD didn't bless Jesus in the same way? Just because Christ resurrected the dead doesn't automatically make him a god!

Paul also resurrected the dead! Are we going to claim that Paul is a god now too? Also, why would he say that he will be by the Lord's side in heaven after his resurrection if he was God?

Also, something that I'm having a really hard time accepting. If Jesus was God, why did he have to pray to HIMSELF asking for guidance and direction? Jesus was an EXTREMELY religous person who devoted and completely dedicated his life to the Father! He prayed to the Father constantly! If Jesus was the Father or any part of the Father why would he pray to HIMSELF asking what to do! If Jesus was God in the flesh he would have known exactly what to do and would have just did it and not prayed to himself for guidance at all!

So many things, just Biblically aren't adding up here. Not in the basic teachings of the LORD.

I'm not claiming to be right, in fact the Trinity is a large belief in Christianity. And, on these forums. I just think that, something just isn't right here. I'm sorry, it just isn't right. So many Bible verses contradict the Trinity that It's impossible for me to believe in. And I personally, will never believe in it. Not when the Bible gives so much evidence to the contrary. It seems to be the opinion of man and not the opinion of the LORD and certainly not of Jesus. Jesus always called himself the Son of God, and made that fact abundantly clear throughout the Bible.

My worship belongs to the LORD and the LORD alone. I pray to the LORD and the LORD alone. I hold Jesus in high respect but to me? Jesus is not God, is not equal to God, and in no way, shape, or form, is a god. This almost reminds me of Buddhism and many Buddhists today treating Buddha like he was a god. Buddha NEVER claimed to be a god nor did he want to be worshiped as one. Buddha spent his life looking FOR God.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

John 8:58 - Jesus explicitly equates himself with YHWH from the old testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who spoke from the burning bush, by calling himself I AM.
The Jews pick up on this and want to stone him.

The problem is that without a trinity, the Incarnation and death of Jesus is transformed from a loving and redemptive act by a just God as man to bring men to God, into the torture and death of a subsidiary being. It robs it significantly of its meaning and purpose and then Atonement makes little sense anymore.

I assume your bible says LORD when translating the Tetragrammaton and Lord when translating the greek Kyrios.
Don't read too much into little differences like that.

 

[Neostarwcc]

John 8:58 - Jesus explicitly equates himself with YHWH from the old testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who spoke from the burning bush, by calling himself I AM.
The Jews pick up on this and want to stone him.

The problem is that without a trinity, the Incarnation and death of Jesus is transformed from a loving and redemptive act by a just God as man to bring men to God, into the torture and death of a subsidiary being. It robs it significantly of its meaning and purpose and then Atonement makes little sense anymore.

I assume your bible says LORD when translating the Tetragrammaton and Lord when translating the greek Kyrios.
Don't read too much into little differences like that.

But the LORD also said that Jesus was the one Savior that was in his plan from the beginning before the heavens and Earth were created. I'd have to find the Bible verse I don't know it off hand.

So, to claim that only the God Yahweh in the Old Testament can save humanity is a correct Biblical claim.

But, God also CHOSE Jesus as that Savior and as the savior he promised in Genesis and throughout the OT. Jesus was the only human that lived his life perfectly without sin. And, the LORD knew about this before hand. So, of course he would choose the ONLY sinless person as his son and as the promised savior. Jesus was merely just blessed and praised by God and that's why he had that power.

Like he's blessed so many of us and so many people throughout the bible.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

But the LORD also said that Jesus was the one Savior that was in his plan from the beginning before the heavens and Earth were created. I'd have to find the Bible verse I don't know it off hand.

So, to claim that only the God Yahweh in the Old Testament can save humanity is a correct Biblical claim.

But, God also CHOSE Jesus as that Savior and as the savior he promised in Genesis and throughout the OT. Jesus was the only human that lived his life perfectly without sin. And, the LORD knew about this before hand. So, of course he would choose the ONLY sinless person as his son and as the promised savior. Jesus was merely just blessed and praised by God and that's why he had that power.

Like he's blessed so many of us and so many people throughout the bible.

You ignored the part in John that I referenced where Jesus explicitly calls himself YHWH.

Secondly though, if the Father is to maintain justice, there must be punishment for sin. But sin is to be forgiven as the Father is merciful.
If the Father tortured and executed a blameless subsidiary creature as punishment for our sins, that would not be just.
It would be as if I tortured a blameless dog so as not to punish my other sinful dogs.

It only works if God takes the punishment upon himself, thus maintaining Justice, while forgiving the transgression as only the person who was wronged can. Otherwise it would have a transactional element.

The Trinity is required for any Atonement doctrine that makes logical sense and maintains a good, merciful and just God.

 

[Butch5]

You ignored the part in John that I referenced where Jesus explicitly calls himself YHWH.

Secondly though, if the Father is to maintain justice, there must be punishment for sin. But sin is to be forgiven as the Father is merciful.
If the Father tortured and executed a blameless subsidiary creature as punishment for our sins, that would not be just.
It would be as if I tortured a blameless dog so as not to punish my other sinful dogs.

It only works if God takes the punishment upon himself, thus maintaining Justice, while forgiving the transgression as only the person who was wronged can. Otherwise it would have a transactional element.

The Trinity is required for any Atonement doctrine that makes logical sense and maintains a good, merciful and just God.

Actually, it's not! The original atonement understanding called the Ransom view doesn't

 

[Butch5]

About the only piece of scripture I could find when searching the bible that would even support the idea of the Trinity is (John 10:30) when Jesus said "I and my Father are one". But, in the same chapter a few verses later in John 10:36 Jesus says "Say yet of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?"

In other words, Jesus said "I am not claiming to be God. I am claiming to be the Son of God."

In fact, nowhere else in the bible did Jesus ever apparently claim to be God. Throughout the entire bible he claimed to be the Son of God. Also, in (Matthew 3:16-17) we learn that the Spirit of God came down from heaven and said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Well, if Jesus is our God Yahweh how can he be in two different places at once first of all. To claim that the baby Jesus is his son? I know, our LORD is all powerful and can do anything and to split into three would not be difficult for him. But, it just sounds fishy to me. Also, why would he claim "This is my son" and not say "He his me in human flesh" or "He is God" or say really ANYTHING that would support the Trinity?

Also, why would he in every single Bible verse where he speaks about the LORD would he call him Father if he was the same entity in a different Flesh? Why would Jesus say over and over again that the Father was greater than he was if he was God? (John 14:28)

If Jesus was God why would he be separate from God in Revelation? (Revelation 1:14-18) and the Father appears throughout Chapter 4.

It's very clear from Chapters 1-4 of Revelation that Jesus and the LORD are NOT equal. None of the 24 elders in Revelation 4:10 were worshiping Jesus they were worshiping the Father and the Father alone.

Also, if the LORD and Jesus were one why are they going to come down to the earth in two separate forms? And why would Jesus need to rule on the earth with us for 10,000 years? And then we worship the Father forevermore?

Why would Jesus state that the Father and the Father ALONE should be worshiped? (Matthew 4:10)

Why would Jesus state that nobody else on this earth is "Father" But, the LORD? (Matthew 23:9)

Also why would it say in the Bible over and over and over again that NOBODY is Equal to God? The only entity equal to the Father is, THE FATHER!

Yet, because of the belief in the Trinity so many Christians worship Jesus. It's even in almost every single worship song that exists today. An age, that's been proven over and over again to be corrupted? An age that Jesus warned us against (Matthew 7:15)

Also, why is Jesus always referred to in the bible as the Lord? And the Father is always referred to as the LORD? The two words are completely different. In other words, they're two completely different entities.

I'm not saying that Jesus never performed miracles. But, David also performed a miracle because he was blessed by God. Are we now going to claim that David is a god? We see miracles every single day! Are we all gods? The bible is very clear that we aren't. In fact, our desire to be gods in the first place, is part of what corrupted humanity in the first place (Genesis 3:5).

Who's to say that our LORD didn't bless Jesus in the same way? Just because Christ resurrected the dead doesn't automatically make him a god!

Paul also resurrected the dead! Are we going to claim that Paul is a god now too? Also, why would he say that he will be by the Lord's side in heaven after his resurrection if he was God?

Also, something that I'm having a really hard time accepting. If Jesus was God, why did he have to pray to HIMSELF asking for guidance and direction? Jesus was an EXTREMELY religous person who devoted and completely dedicated his life to the Father! He prayed to the Father constantly! If Jesus was the Father or any part of the Father why would he pray to HIMSELF asking what to do! If Jesus was God in the flesh he would have known exactly what to do and would have just did it and not prayed to himself for guidance at all!

So many things, just Biblically aren't adding up here. Not in the basic teachings of the LORD.

I'm not claiming to be right, in fact the Trinity is a large belief in Christianity. And, on these forums. I just think that, something just isn't right here. I'm sorry, it just isn't right. So many Bible verses contradict the Trinity that It's impossible for me to believe in. And I personally, will never believe in it. Not when the Bible gives so much evidence to the contrary. It seems to be the opinion of man and not the opinion of the LORD and certainly not of Jesus. Jesus always called himself the Son of God, and made that fact abundantly clear throughout the Bible.

My worship belongs to the LORD and the LORD alone. I pray to the LORD and the LORD alone. I hold Jesus in high respect but to me? Jesus is not God, is not equal to God, and in no way, shape, or form, is a god. This almost reminds me of Buddhism and many Buddhists today treating Buddha like he was a god. Buddha NEVER claimed to be a god nor did he want to be worshiped as one. Buddha spent his life looking FOR God.

The modern understanding of the Trinity is not Biblical. It comes from the Athanasian Creed. It's from around 450 AD. The early Christians held to the Nicene Creed which states, 'I believe in one God, the Father. In the second line it says, 'And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God'

The early Christians didn't believe that there was a being called God who consisted of 3 separate persons.

 

[Job8]

In fact, nowhere else in the bible did Jesus ever apparently claim to be God.

First of all, the nature of God is non-debatable. You can either believe what He has revealed or disbelieve it. Debate will not resolve anything.

Secondly, you avoided one of the clearest Scripture which show that (1) Jesus is God and (2) God the Father is the first Person of the Godhead (John 1:1-4):

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [Theos], and the Word was God. [Theos]

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Actually, it's not! The original atonement understanding called the Ransom view doesn't

Debatable to say Ransom Atonement was the 'original'. People say that of Christus Victor and Moral Influence theories as well. Ransom is associated with Origen though and quite common in the Church Fathers.

Ransom still requires a trinity, for to buy humanity from Satan or Death's bondage to maintain Justice - the essence of the theory - only works because God or Life itself, cannot die or be held in Hades. The Unity of the Father and Son allows the Son as a perfect Man to transcend the limitation of men and Man can then also defeat death via our unity of God via Christ.
If Jesus had been a separate entity handed over in Ransom for our debts incurred, not only would this impinge Justice - as God would be condemning the innocent for others' crimes - it would also require an explanation of how Jesus could have overcome death. For if the Father raised him, then the Father cheated and acted unjustly in the arrangement, breaking contract as it were. Likewise if Jesus raised himself somehow, he is not a willing ransom and therefore it is also unjust.
Only if Jesus is innately incapable of dying - if He is Life itself, God Himself - can justice be maintained in Ransom theory. A created being cannot do this without leaving an Unjust Father.

 

[Neostarwcc]

You ignored the part in John that I referenced where Jesus explicitly calls himself YHWH.

Secondly though, if the Father is to maintain justice, there must be punishment for sin. But sin is to be forgiven as the Father is merciful.
If the Father tortured and executed a blameless subsidiary creature as punishment for our sins, that would not be just.
It would be as if I tortured a blameless dog so as not to punish my other sinful dogs.

It only works if God takes the punishment upon himself, thus maintaining Justice, while forgiving the transgression as only the person who was wronged can. Otherwise it would have a transactional element.

The Trinity is required for any Atonement doctrine that makes logical sense and maintains a good, merciful and just God.

Because I see it as circumstantial evidence. But, I see your point. Because, I ignored what you said and answered the rest it might be true. Well, I just don't see it as definitive enough. It just seems twisted around to me. You are correct though that Yahweh did sometimes refer to himself as I AM and that Jesus at one point said the words. But, honestly? If Jesus was part of Yahweh you'd think there would be more records of it oh, and that the original apostles would have shared those beliefs. They didn't though. Belief in the Trinity didn't start until Christ and his disciples were already dead for almost four centuries and the Christian Church started to become corrupted as more and more people twisted the word of God.

Also, you ignored like almost every question I asked in the OP I actually expected a Trinitarian to answer every one of my questions in order to get me to believe. You ignored them all because there's no way to debate them with other parts of scripture. And there is plenty of Biblical evidence to support my claim even past what I put in the OP. Yet, belief in the Trinity is almost all based on Faith. Faith in Christianity is important But, until I see large Biblical evidence or the Angel of the LORD coming down to me from heaven and saying "Jesus is a part of me. The Trinity exists" I'm not going to believe it, sorry.

I tried to almost my entire life but, there just isn't sufficient evidence for me to believe. And the LORD has given me sufficient evidence to believe to turn an Atheist who hated Fundamentalists and God into a Fundamentalist. A couple of verses that have to be twisted around Isn't going to convince a Fundamental Christian.

The modern understanding of the Trinity is not Biblical. It comes from the Athanasian Creed. It's from around 450 AD. The early Christians held to the Nicene Creed which states, 'I believe in one God, the Father. In the second line it says, 'And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God'

The early Christians didn't believe that there was a being called God who consisted of 3 separate persons.

Exactly. And you'd think Christ's disciples who actually knew and walked with Christ would have held that belief too. They didn't though. Nobody did.

Also, you'd think Christ wouldn't say "You pray to the Father and the Father alone" multiple times if he was in fact, Yahweh in the flesh. He wouldn't have he would have said "Okay, yeah you can pray to me because, I am Yahweh in the Flesh."

First of all, the nature of God is non-debatable. You can either believe what He has revealed or disbelieve it. Debate will not resolve anything.

Secondly, you avoided one of the clearest Scripture which show that (1) Jesus is God and (2) God the Father is the first Person of the Godhead (John 1:1-4):

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [Theos], and the Word was God. [Theos]

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Who says Christian Theology isn't debatable? Christians have been debating Theology amongst each other for thousands and thousands of years. If we didn't debate amongst each other how are we supposed to find the true word of God? That being said, no I didn't ignore those verses. I just didn't see how they could possible mean what you're claiming. I've investigated the four verses further on the internet and found an interesting study on it on wikipedia feel free to skip or skim it if you don't want to read the large paragraph:

"
John 1:1
Main article: John 1:1
John 1:1 - The contention with this verse is that there is a distinction between God and the Logos (or "the Word"). Trinitarians contend that the third part of the verse (John 1:1c) translates as "and the Word was God", pointing to a distinction as subjects between God and the Logos but an equivalence in nature.[64][65][66][67] Some nontrinitarians (Jehovah's Witnesses, specifically) contend that the Koine Greek ("kai theos ên ho logos") should instead be translated as "and the Word was a god", or as what they see as the more literal word-for-word translation from the Greek as "and a God was the Word", basing this on the contention that the section is an example of an anarthrous, that is, "theos" lacks the definite article, meaning its use was indefinite - "a god", which could denote either Almighty God or a divine being in general. Nontrinitarians also contend that had the author of John's gospel wished to say "and the Word was God" that he could have easily written "kai ho theos ên ho logos", but he did not. In this way, nontrinitarians contend that the Logos would be considered to be the pre-existent Jesus, who is actually distinct from God. The argument being that the distinction between the Logos and the Father was not just in terms of "person", but also in terms of "theos".[68][self-published source][69][70] Meaning that not only were they distinct persons, but also distinct "Gods", given the fact that the second occurrence of "theos" was an indefinite noun; and that only the Father was treated as the absolute "Theos" in John 1:1. The argument being that only one person is actually referred to as the Absolute God, "ho Theos", in John 1:1, that person being only the Father, not the Logos.[68][self-published source][70] Alternatively, others argue that the Greek should be translated as "and the Logos was divine" (with theos being an adjective), and the Logos being interpreted as God's "plan" or "reasoning" for salvation. Thus, according to Modalists, when "the Logos became flesh" in John 1:14, it is not interpreted to be a pre-existent Jesus being incarnated, but rather the "plan" or "eternal mind" of God being manifested in the birth of the man Jesus. Others still consider a suitable translation of the verse to be "What God was, the logos/word was.""


I like articles that are written in a neutral point of view because they tend to be non biased and not thrown into the favor of the one person who has the same view. Because obviously, I'm going to debate things to support Non-Trinitarianism and you're going to debate things supporting the Trinity.

Anyway, the article poses a few possibilities as to what could be happening here. And the rest of the verses don't really support Trinitarian views at all. Like I said, to convince me to no longer debate the Trinity I'm going to have to see some solid Biblical evidence. Saying that God is the word isn't going to convince me. And even if it was translated correctly and God IS the word than what does that have to do with the Trinity? It could mean a million things and obviously God is the word because, God MADE the word!

Like I said before, if Jesus was God in mortal form don't you think he would have said so? What, do Trinitarians think that Jesus wanted us to debate that and find that out for ourselves? Why? When he was so clear throughout the Bible on the rest of God's word! Not a single part of God's word is really, unclear!

Accept Christ as your Lord and savior, Pray to the Father and only the Father for guidance, Repent for your sins, Walk with the LORD and let him guide your life, Follow the Law of God, Spread the word of God to the world... need I go on? It's all VERY clear!

Not a SINGLE part of God's word is unclear! Yet, the Trinity IS! You have to twist scripture around to even get it to support the Trinitarian viewpoint and yet there are dozens and dozens of pieces of scripture that support the contrary!

Why would one small factor about God's word be so hidden when Jesus made the rest of the LORD's intentions VERY clear? I'm sorry, it just doesn't add up. It smells a lot like a belief of man rather than the word of God.

About the only argument one could have fully supporting the Trinity is that Christians have translated the scriptures incorrectly and that the original pieces of scriptures did in fact, have several verses supporting the Trinity. And that just can't be proven as many parts of the original scriptures are long gone. Including the ten commandments. Plus, we'd all have to study fluently in ancient Greek and ancient Hebrew.

We can only rely on the Bible that we have today. And the Bible that we have today no matter what's been removed from it and what translation It's in, says that the Trinity doesn't exist. And, I believe the Bible and the LORD before I believe man. Sorry, that's just what Jesus taught us ALL to do.

I've prayed to the LORD many times for the truth on the Trinity and my views haven't changed in months. So that only tells me, that I must be correct. As, I have the utmost faith in the LORD. While man will lie to me and deceive me, the LORD will not.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

About the only piece of scripture I could find when searching the bible that would even support the idea of the Trinity is (John 10:30) when Jesus said "I and my Father are one". But, in the same chapter a few verses later in John 10:36 Jesus says "Say yet of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?"

In other words, Jesus said "I am not claiming to be God. I am claiming to be the Son of God."

In fact, nowhere else in the bible did Jesus ever apparently claim to be God. Throughout the entire bible he claimed to be the Son of God. Also, in (Matthew 3:16-17) we learn that the Spirit of God came down from heaven and said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Well, if Jesus is our God Yahweh how can he be in two different places at once first of all. To claim that the baby Jesus is his son? I know, our LORD is all powerful and can do anything and to split into three would not be difficult for him. But, it just sounds fishy to me. Also, why would he claim "This is my son" and not say "He his me in human flesh" or "He is God" or say really ANYTHING that would support the Trinity?

Also, why would he in every single Bible verse where he speaks about the LORD would he call him Father if he was the same entity in a different Flesh? Why would Jesus say over and over again that the Father was greater than he was if he was God? (John 14:28)

If Jesus was God why would he be separate from God in Revelation? (Revelation 1:14-18) and the Father appears throughout Chapter 4.

It's very clear from Chapters 1-4 of Revelation that Jesus and the LORD are NOT equal. None of the 24 elders in Revelation 4:10 were worshiping Jesus they were worshiping the Father and the Father alone.

Also, if the LORD and Jesus were one why are they going to come down to the earth in two separate forms? And why would Jesus need to rule on the earth with us for 10,000 years? And then we worship the Father forevermore?

Why would Jesus state that the Father and the Father ALONE should be worshiped? (Matthew 4:10)

Why would Jesus state that nobody else on this earth is "Father" But, the LORD? (Matthew 23:9)

Also why would it say in the Bible over and over and over again that NOBODY is Equal to God? The only entity equal to the Father is, THE FATHER!

Yet, because of the belief in the Trinity so many Christians worship Jesus. It's even in almost every single worship song that exists today. An age, that's been proven over and over again to be corrupted? An age that Jesus warned us against (Matthew 7:15)

Also, why is Jesus always referred to in the bible as the Lord? And the Father is always referred to as the LORD? The two words are completely different. In other words, they're two completely different entities.

I'm not saying that Jesus never performed miracles. But, David also performed a miracle because he was blessed by God. Are we now going to claim that David is a god? We see miracles every single day! Are we all gods? The bible is very clear that we aren't. In fact, our desire to be gods in the first place, is part of what corrupted humanity in the first place (Genesis 3:5).

Who's to say that our LORD didn't bless Jesus in the same way? Just because Christ resurrected the dead doesn't automatically make him a god!

Paul also resurrected the dead! Are we going to claim that Paul is a god now too? Also, why would he say that he will be by the Lord's side in heaven after his resurrection if he was God?

Also, something that I'm having a really hard time accepting. If Jesus was God, why did he have to pray to HIMSELF asking for guidance and direction? Jesus was an EXTREMELY religous person who devoted and completely dedicated his life to the Father! He prayed to the Father constantly! If Jesus was the Father or any part of the Father why would he pray to HIMSELF asking what to do! If Jesus was God in the flesh he would have known exactly what to do and would have just did it and not prayed to himself for guidance at all!

So many things, just Biblically aren't adding up here. Not in the basic teachings of the LORD.

I'm not claiming to be right, in fact the Trinity is a large belief in Christianity. And, on these forums. I just think that, something just isn't right here. I'm sorry, it just isn't right. So many Bible verses contradict the Trinity that It's impossible for me to believe in. And I personally, will never believe in it. Not when the Bible gives so much evidence to the contrary. It seems to be the opinion of man and not the opinion of the LORD and certainly not of Jesus. Jesus always called himself the Son of God, and made that fact abundantly clear throughout the Bible.

My worship belongs to the LORD and the LORD alone. I pray to the LORD and the LORD alone. I hold Jesus in high respect but to me? Jesus is not God, is not equal to God, and in no way, shape, or form, is a god. This almost reminds me of Buddhism and many Buddhists today treating Buddha like he was a god. Buddha NEVER claimed to be a god nor did he want to be worshiped as one. Buddha spent his life looking FOR God.

When you experience the oneness Jesus is talking about in John 17, with other people ... you will then have a living parable of how trinity works. It's a pretty deep concept.

 

[St_Worm2]

Who says Christian Theology isn't debatable?

Hi mmbattlestar, concerning debate about the Trinity on this particular board, Christian Forums is the one who says it! Here is part of the Controversial Theology board's Statement of Purpose:

Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose

Welcome to Controversial Christian Theology forum. This is a forum for discussion and debate of unorthodox, non-Nicene Christian theology. This forum is open to Christian's only, including both Nicene (orthodox) and non-Nicene (unorthodox) Christians. Please refer to our faith groups list for clarification. This forum is not intended to be a "safe haven" for members who hold unorthodox Christian beliefs. Unorthodox Christian beliefs are those that are contrary to the Nicene Creed, which CF has adopted as the Statement of Faith for the forum.

Non-Nicene unorthodox Christian topics may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Christianity & World Religion forum and the Debate Non-Christian Religions forum. The non-Nicene, unorthodox Christian topics which may discussed in this forum include (but are not limited to):

• Universalism
• Open Theism
• Full Preterism
• Annihilationism
• Gnosticism

 

[redleghunter]

About the only piece of scripture I could find when searching the bible that would even support the idea of the Trinity is (John 10:30) when Jesus said "I and my Father are one". But, in the same chapter a few verses later in John 10:36 Jesus says "Say yet of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?"

In other words, Jesus said "I am not claiming to be God. I am claiming to be the Son of God."

In fact, nowhere else in the bible did Jesus ever apparently claim to be God. Throughout the entire bible he claimed to be the Son of God. Also, in (Matthew 3:16-17) we learn that the Spirit of God came down from heaven and said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Well, if Jesus is our God Yahweh how can he be in two different places at once first of all. To claim that the baby Jesus is his son? I know, our LORD is all powerful and can do anything and to split into three would not be difficult for him. But, it just sounds fishy to me. Also, why would he claim "This is my son" and not say "He his me in human flesh" or "He is God" or say really ANYTHING that would support the Trinity?

Also, why would he in every single Bible verse where he speaks about the LORD would he call him Father if he was the same entity in a different Flesh? Why would Jesus say over and over again that the Father was greater than he was if he was God? (John 14:28)

If Jesus was God why would he be separate from God in Revelation? (Revelation 1:14-18) and the Father appears throughout Chapter 4.

It's very clear from Chapters 1-4 of Revelation that Jesus and the LORD are NOT equal. None of the 24 elders in Revelation 4:10 were worshiping Jesus they were worshiping the Father and the Father alone.

Also, if the LORD and Jesus were one why are they going to come down to the earth in two separate forms? And why would Jesus need to rule on the earth with us for 10,000 years? And then we worship the Father forevermore?

Why would Jesus state that the Father and the Father ALONE should be worshiped? (Matthew 4:10)

Why would Jesus state that nobody else on this earth is "Father" But, the LORD? (Matthew 23:9)

Also why would it say in the Bible over and over and over again that NOBODY is Equal to God? The only entity equal to the Father is, THE FATHER!

Yet, because of the belief in the Trinity so many Christians worship Jesus. It's even in almost every single worship song that exists today. An age, that's been proven over and over again to be corrupted? An age that Jesus warned us against (Matthew 7:15)

Also, why is Jesus always referred to in the bible as the Lord? And the Father is always referred to as the LORD? The two words are completely different. In other words, they're two completely different entities.

I'm not saying that Jesus never performed miracles. But, David also performed a miracle because he was blessed by God. Are we now going to claim that David is a god? We see miracles every single day! Are we all gods? The bible is very clear that we aren't. In fact, our desire to be gods in the first place, is part of what corrupted humanity in the first place (Genesis 3:5).

Who's to say that our LORD didn't bless Jesus in the same way? Just because Christ resurrected the dead doesn't automatically make him a god!

Paul also resurrected the dead! Are we going to claim that Paul is a god now too? Also, why would he say that he will be by the Lord's side in heaven after his resurrection if he was God?

Also, something that I'm having a really hard time accepting. If Jesus was God, why did he have to pray to HIMSELF asking for guidance and direction? Jesus was an EXTREMELY religous person who devoted and completely dedicated his life to the Father! He prayed to the Father constantly! If Jesus was the Father or any part of the Father why would he pray to HIMSELF asking what to do! If Jesus was God in the flesh he would have known exactly what to do and would have just did it and not prayed to himself for guidance at all!

So many things, just Biblically aren't adding up here. Not in the basic teachings of the LORD.

I'm not claiming to be right, in fact the Trinity is a large belief in Christianity. And, on these forums. I just think that, something just isn't right here. I'm sorry, it just isn't right. So many Bible verses contradict the Trinity that It's impossible for me to believe in. And I personally, will never believe in it. Not when the Bible gives so much evidence to the contrary. It seems to be the opinion of man and not the opinion of the LORD and certainly not of Jesus. Jesus always called himself the Son of God, and made that fact abundantly clear throughout the Bible.

My worship belongs to the LORD and the LORD alone. I pray to the LORD and the LORD alone. I hold Jesus in high respect but to me? Jesus is not God, is not equal to God, and in no way, shape, or form, is a god. This almost reminds me of Buddhism and many Buddhists today treating Buddha like he was a god. Buddha NEVER claimed to be a god nor did he want to be worshiped as one. Buddha spent his life looking FOR God.

Thanks for the OP.

I see a lot of arguments against the Deity of Jesus Christ in this forum so want to clear up a few things before we start.

First your OP sounds like a Jehovah's Witness argument yet your tag has "non denominational." If so what is your church statement of faith on the nature of Jesus Christ? This helps us not go in circles for pages. Thank you in advance.

Second where do you see the shift from Son to Father in Revelation? How do you distinguish where Lord refers to Father and not Son or is that your preconception the Son cannot be Lord so therefore must be the Father?

Third, if you do see a distinction between Father, Son and Holy Spirit do you see them separate distinct Beings with no common substance? Meaning tritheism? Or do you see a Oneness approach and if so how does this come about?

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Jesus did claim to be God

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,”says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Catholics of Rome of the first 2 centuries understood it well and depicted The Lord in the Catacombs:

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

The Apostles also Claimed Jesus to be God and to worship him.

Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify Christ the Lord in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

The Old Testament claims the Messiah to be Mighty God:

Isaiah 9:6 (5)

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[redleghunter]

The Apostles also Claimed Jesus to be God and to worship him.

Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify Christ the Lord in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Indeed as Thomas was quite convinced in John 20:28

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Indeed as Thomas was quite convinced in John 20:28

Right

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

That was the reason Why jews killed Jesus, him claiming to be equal to God.

John 5:18

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

 

[MennoSota]

Thankfully God has no controversy with himself being 3 in 1.

"According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure."
~ 1 Peter 1:2

 

[Neostarwcc]

Hi mmbattlestar, concerning debate about the Trinity on this particular board, Christian Forums is the one who says it! Here is part of the Controversial Theology board's Statement of Purpose:

Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose

Welcome to Controversial Christian Theology forum. This is a forum for discussion and debate of unorthodox, non-Nicene Christian theology. This forum is open to Christian's only, including both Nicene (orthodox) and non-Nicene (unorthodox) Christians. Please refer to our faith groups list for clarification. This forum is not intended to be a "safe haven" for members who hold unorthodox Christian beliefs. Unorthodox Christian beliefs are those that are contrary to the Nicene Creed, which CF has adopted as the Statement of Faith for the forum.

Non-Nicene unorthodox Christian topics may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Christianity & World Religion forum and the Debate Non-Christian Religions forum. The non-Nicene, unorthodox Christian topics which may discussed in this forum include (but are not limited to):

• Universalism
• Open Theism
• Full Preterism
• Annihilationism
• Gnosticism

It says here that non Triniatarian posts may be posted here:


Source:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/general-theology-statement-of-purpose.7780354/


"Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Nicene and Trinitarian beliefs. Christian non-Nicene and non-Trinitarian topics may only be discussed in the Controversial Theology forum. The Controversial Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). These unorthodox topics include (but are not limited to):

• Universalism
• Open Theism
• Full Preterism
• Non-Trinitarianism
• Annihilations
• Gnosticism

May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. -- Psalm 19:14

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this
everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. -- John 13:34,35"


Which is why I posted my topic here and not elsewhere. As for the rest of the replies, I'll answer them all tomorrow. I'm heading to bed now.