Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

[keras]

Could you show us the reference which says spells that out for us.

The Interlinear Scripture Analyzer has this information. It says Elijah went up to the heavens.....
Anyway, whatever happened to Elijah, to use that incident as a rapture proof, is a very tenuous and flimsy evidence.

The problem for me, at least, is that I hear convincing arguments from both sides of the debate, for and against the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

What should convince you, is actual Words of scripture. There is no verse that says God will take His people to live in heaven.
Whereas there are plenty that say we must endure trials and tribulations. Revelation 13:10 +
The catching up that will happen as per 1 Thess 4:15-17, is just for those who remain alive after all that must happen until Jesus Returns. As prophesied in Matthew 24:31. It is NOT to heaven!

 

[keras]

There will not be any miraculous cloaking of the elect by Christ. There will be no hiding in the mountains... not for seven years through the hell that is going to rain down...

You forget about the people who will be taken to a place of safety for the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14-17 Note in verse 17 that half of the Christians will go and half remain.
The two groups of Christians are referred to in Zechariah 14:1-2 and we are told why they are separated in Daniel 11:32.

 

[Oldmantook]

Hello, I am a 19-year-old fellow Christian, and I have plenty of concerns regarding the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PTR).

Scroll down for TL;DR.

Some of my favorite bible teachers, and preachers believe in the PTR. I never had a strong belief in it, but always kind of assumed it did exist, mostly because of the Left Behind movies/books, and the people I listened to. I like studying end times prophecy, and so, upon doing my own research, I started to doubt it's existence. I think that PTR believers' interpretation of Revelation is fairly accurate, with the coming Beast and tribulation (however, I'm not sure it's going to be exactly seven years long, because Revelation isn't specific enough), but I don't see any evidence that Christians will be raptured out to avoid it.

Anyways, let's get to the point...
I have seen many people argue for, and against the PTR, but I think that most people just bicker, and I have yet to see any intelligent debate concerning the PTR. Most people from both sides seem to have their go-to questions that just get annoying, and no question from either side seem to bring anything valuable into question. I personally don't believe in the PTR. I don't think that there is near enough evidence for it, and think that it's illogical to believe in it. I, however, may be missing something that most people don't mention, and so that's why I want to debate it here. I am very open to the idea of it, but can't find evidence myself.

The things I hear the most are as follows:

Those against the PTR (here after referred to as, "anti-PTRs") say,
"The word, 'Rapture' is never in the bible."
"The Rapture doctrine has only been around for a few hundred years."

Those who believe in the PTR (here after referred to as, "PTRs") quote,
1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17
1 Corinthians 15:51-53

I, someone who is open to both sides, see these arguments and my problems with this are as follows:

The anti-PTRs shouldn't care about the word itself. Who cares if it is ever mentioned by name or not? Question what the bible says about it. Most PTRs openly say that 'rapture' is a man given name that comes from Greek and Latin words that are in the bible. The word, "Trinity" is never in the bible, but the bible is very explicit about the existence of it, and the word,
"Godhead" is in the bible. 'Trinity' is a man given word that explains the split person of God.
Since the rapture is recent doctrine, one should look at it very skeptically, but it doesn't mean you should just toss it out immediately! You're saying that every mystery of the bible has already been revealed, and anyone who finds something new is making something up? It may be likely, but it isn't a sure thing. Just look at the sign of Revelation 12 that took place in the sky last September. No one ever thought that that was referring to the stars until they looked up and saw what was going on (I'm not saying that the Sept 23rd sign is definitely of sure significance, but I do think that Jesus wants our attention. It's a little hard to completely dismiss). A lot of the anti-PTRs are Calvanists, at least most I know, and Calvanism introduced tons of doctrines just a few hundreds years before the rapture doctrine. (I don't personally believe in Calvanism, but we'll talk about that another day.)

The PTRs can't use just those two verse, because they don't explicitly say anything about the tribulation. Both refer to the second coming of Jesus Christ, but neither say that their will be a rapture before the Beast's appearance, or that Christians will be spared from God's wrath. 1 Thess. refers to going up to meet God, but never mentions that we will be caught up before the tribulation. It only says that being caught up will be involved when Jesus comes back. 1 Cor. says that we will have to be changed in order to enter Heaven. Paul is saying that our bodies aren't just going to stop aging, but instead our bodies will have to be changed in order to be 'imperishable', and 'immortal'. This happens to the dead bodies as well. The souls of the dead will come back to claim their bodies once again, but before going back into Heaven they will have to be perfect bodies, not piles of dust, or half-decomposed skeletons. It makes no sense to me that people take these verses in 1 Cor., and say that this means that every Christian on earth will all of the sudden disappear leaving behind their clothes (some say blood as well), and everyone left on earth is going to be stuck dodging empty cars. I mean, come on...where are you getting that from?!

Too Long; Didn't Read:
Those for, and those against the Pre-Trib Rapture, just seem to bicker, and never any intelligent debate. They both seem to be very stubborn, and those for the PTR, don't provide any logical evidence.

So, my request for you, is that can you please tell me why people believe in the PTR, and allow me to possibly debate you? Or, if you are anti-PTR, like me, if there is any scripture that sheds a little extra light on the situation that I don't know, that would be greatly appreciated, or if you have anything else you'd like to add about why the PTR is false.
I'm open to any other debate about anything else you have to say regarding the rapture. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, and you'd like to point it out to me, or maybe you have a view that disagrees with both sides (I know that are a lot of different theories about the end times, so let's constrict this to viewpoints concerning the PTR, not the second coming in general).

Thanks in advance for your replies! I appreciate your opinion.
In Christ, Matt

When discussing this subject, proponents of one view or the other cite favorite scriptures claiming that such references support their view and in doing so give less credibility to the opposing view. Many times this results in proof-texting which leads to eisegeting the scriptures instead of exegeting them regarding the timing of Jesus' return. Adhering to a couple of basic rules of interpretation helps to shed light on this topic.

One basic principle of interpretation is the Principle of First Mention. This principle states that when an important concept is mentioned for the first time there is elevated significance in the passage in which it appears. Given this principle, one gives preeminence to those passages where Jesus mentions his return since for obvious reasons he is the one who first explained it to his disciples. What this means is that all the NT references in the gospels and epistles describing Jesus' return are interpreted in light of when Jesus stated when he will return - not vice-versa. Rapture proponents claim that Jesus returns twice - once at the rapture and again at his Second Coming. However, whenever Jesus described his own return he mentioned it as being a one-time event; not two times. Therefore properly interpreted, Paul's subsequent descriptions of Jesus' return should be interpreted in light of what Jesus said. Paul's writings to the Corinthians and Thessalonians about the "rapture" should be understood in terms of a one-time return which Jesus first spoke about; not the other way around. In addition, if Jesus returns twice, one would think that Jesus would have mentioned it in such terms but he did not do so and I doubt that he forgot to mention it if it were indeed true.

Another basic rule of interpretation is that we move from the clear to the unclear passages of Scripture in order to bring clarity to a topic. We interpret the more difficult scriptures in light of what is already made plain and clear. This same principle applies to our approach of when Jesus returns. There is common agreement that Jesus described his return as a thief. Rapture adherents point to this and claim that Jesus will come as a thief and silently steal the saints away prior to the tribulation. Is there any clear scripture that supports this view or not? Rev 16:15-16 reads:
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
In these two verses, Jesus himself plainly states that he will return as a thief not before the tribulation as pre-tribbers believe but after the great tribulation - right before the battle of Armageddon. I think there is little room for speculation here as this is a plain statement of scripture as to when Jesus himself says he will return as a thief. Therefore, all other scripture references to the rapture must account for and be interpreted in light of what Jesus clearly stated.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023


Dr. Kelly Varner on Daniel chapter 9

Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18


.

Also, think. How many sevens do see in Revelation? There are hundreds.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

“He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering

Jason

The above statement pertains to the Lord Jesus Christ not the "beast". He confirmed the covenant for 3.5 years (baptism to cross) then was crucified which brought " an end to sacrifice and offering" ( the ceremonial law which pointed forward to HIM) That is why the curtain in the temple was torn reveling that the Holy place was no longer occupied by God. Animal blood sacrifices were done away with by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB JESUS CHRIST.

The teaching that this pertains to the beast is a counterfeit by satan of the true interpretation.

If you understand this then you are on the way to finding the true character of JESUS CHRIST

I dare say that if you accept the true interpretation of the last week of the 70 week prophecy you current theological understanding will crumble.

Time is short look forward to seeing you in Heaven.

Your brother in Christ

OHC

 

[JacksBratt]

You forget about the people who will be taken to a place of safety for the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14-17 Note in verse 17 that half of the Christians will go and half remain.
The two groups of Christians are referred to in Zechariah 14:1-2 and we are told why they are separated in Daniel 11:32.

That must be a really big place..... 1 or 2 billion Christians... as of 2010

 

[HeatRamosHidden]

The Interlinear Scripture Analyzer has this information. It says Elijah went up to the heavens.....
Anyway, whatever happened to Elijah, to use that incident as a rapture proof, is a very tenuous and flimsy evidence.

What should convince you, is actual Words of scripture. There is no verse that says God will take His people to live in heaven.
Whereas there are plenty that say we must endure trials and tribulations. Revelation 13:10 +
The catching up that will happen as per 1 Thess 4:15-17, is just for those who remain alive after all that must happen until Jesus Returns. As prophesied in Matthew 24:31. It is NOT to heaven!

It doesn't mean we think we're better than those who do suffer through tribulations.
All of us certainly face some kind of tribulation for serving God, but it doesn't mean we have to go through death camps and gas chambers.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason

The above statement pertains to the Lord Jesus Christ not the "beast". He confirmed the covenant for 3.5 years (baptism to cross) then was crucified which brought " an end to sacrifice and offering" ( the ceremonial law which pointed forward to HIM) That is why the curtain in the temple was torn reveling that the Holy place was no longer occupied by God. Animal blood sacrifices were done away with by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB JESUS CHRIST.

The teaching that this pertains to the beast is a counterfeit by satan of the true interpretation.

If you understand this then you are on the way to finding the true character of JESUS CHRIST

I dare say that if you accept the true interpretation of the last week of the 70 week prophecy you current theological understanding will crumble.

Time is short look forward to seeing you in Heaven.

Your brother in Christ

OHC

Daniel 9:26 says the sanctuary is destroyed. Problem is that the sanctuary is not destroyed. The stones of the old Jewish temple still stand today. Ever heard of the wailing wall? Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse that no stone will be left standing.

In addition, the covenant of the New Testament is an everlasting covenant.

Also, the "prince" that makes in Daniel 9:27 is the antichrist. Daniel 11:30-32 says,

30 "For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits."
(Daniel 11:30-32).

Daniel 9:27 says,
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

[Oldmantook]

It doesn't mean we think we're better than those who do suffer through tribulations.
All of us certainly face some kind of tribulation for serving God, but it doesn't mean we have to go through death camps and gas chambers.

Maybe not death camps; maybe not gas chambers but for some perhaps even many, they will lose their heads. "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev 20:4).

 

[HeatRamosHidden]

Maybe not death camps; maybe not gas chambers but for some perhaps even many, they will lose their heads. "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev 20:4).

Ahem. I'm saying though that if we don't, it has nothing to do with our worthiness or unworthiness.

 

[Oldmantook]

Maybe not death camps; maybe not gas chambers but for some and likely many, they will lose their heads. "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev 20:4).

 

[HeatRamosHidden]

You double posted.

 

[Oldmantook]

Ahem. I'm saying though that if we don't, it has nothing to do with our worthiness or unworthiness.

 

[HeatRamosHidden]

I'm sorry, it looks like you're just quoting and saying nothing.

 

[Oldmantook]

You double posted.

Yup, excuse my faux pas. However your claim that what we may or may not go through has nothing to do with our worthiness or unworthiness is questionable. Jesus promised those in the Philadelphian Church that he would keep them from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world. He also gave the specific reason why he chose to do so - because they kept his command to endure patiently (Rev 3:10). Those who compose the Philadephian Church were judged by Jesus to be worthy so to claim that our worthiness is a non-factor is contrary to Jesus' own words.

 

[HeatRamosHidden]

Yup, excuse my faux pas. However your claim that what we may or may not go through has nothing to do with our worthiness or unworthiness is questionable. Jesus promised those in the Philadelphian Church that he would keep them from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world. He also gave the specific reason why he chose to do so - because they kept his command to endure patiently (Rev 3:10). Those who compose the Philadephian Church were judged by Jesus to be worthy so to claim that our worthiness is a non-factor is contrary to Jesus' own words.

I only mean to say that, we AREN'T better than people who suffer. I did type out that what we go through has nothing to do with our worthiness or unworthiness, but while people may be more worthy than me in comparison, no one is worthy of God, at all, which isn't contrary to Jesus'es own words. The only way we're getting Saved is through Jesus'es sacrifice on the Cross.

 

[Oldmantook]

I only mean to say that, we AREN'T better than people who suffer. I did type out that what we go through has nothing to do with our worthiness or unworthiness, but while people may be more worthy than me in comparison, no one is worthy of God, at all, which isn't contrary to Jesus'es own words. The only way we're getting Saved is through Jesus'es sacrifice on the Cross.

I agree with you if the topic were soteriology however the particular topic of this thread deals with eschatology. Our own worthiness counts for nothing in the former but according to Jesus our worthiness does count for something in the latter.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The Interlinear Scripture Analyzer has this information. It says Elijah went up to the heavens.....

Granted - it does not mean for absolute certainty that Elijah went up the "3rd Heaven". It certainly is possible (linguistically) that he was taken somewhere other than the place of the throne of God.

However, Elijah did come again as John the Baptist according to the clear testimony of Jesus Himself. Although we can't fathom exactly how someone who had lived before could come again as the product of human procreation - it seems even harder to imagine that it could happen if the "man" Elijah had not been taken up to God and was still sent back as John.

I.e. if he was simply salted away somewhere on earth in his "manhood" all that time, how could his spirit come into a new person - John?

Now - if you don't believe Jesus when He said that John was Elijah - I can't really speak to that lack of faith. You'll have to work it out yourself in your theology as to how a spiritually dead child (John) could recognize spiritual truth and jump in his mother's womb when finding himself in the presence of God in the flesh.

Anyway, whatever happened to Elijah, to use that incident as a rapture proof, is a very tenuous and flimsy evidence.

Granted.

There is no verse that says God will take His people to live in heaven.

Oh - really?

It does say clearly that our citizenship is in Heaven.

Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”

It does say that He has gone somewhere to prepare a place for us and according to the above verse and many others, that place is Heaven.

""If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also." John 14:3

It does say that we will be "caught up" to HIM when He comes again.

First Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.”

It does say that the dead will be raised imperishable when He comes again and that we will also be so changed.

First Corinthians 15:51-53 “Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.”

Whereas there are plenty that say we must endure trials and tribulations. Revelation 13:10 +

It also says that we are not destined for wrath. It also says that the things which will happen on earth during the days before His ultimate return are, indeed, the wrath of God. They are not just general tribulations but rather tribulation the like of which men have never seen nor will ever happen again on this earth.

The catching up that will happen as per 1 Thess 4:15-17, is just for those who remain alive after all that must happen until Jesus Returns. As prophesied in Matthew 24:31. It is NOT to heaven!

Since you seem to demand one clear verse for every doctrine you will accept - where exactly is that fact found in the scriptures?

 

[keras]

That must be a really big place..... 1 or 2 billion Christians... as of 2010

True Christians are those who have been born again in Jesus. Not those who go to church for social or any other reason, nominal Christians, who are the greater percentage of Christians worldwide.
Plus; as I said only half will go to the place of safety.

 

[HeatRamosHidden]

True Christians are those who have been born again in Jesus. Not those who go to church for social or any other reason, nominal Christians, who are the greater percentage of Christians worldwide.
Plus; as I said only half will go to the place of safety.

You mean as in places such as Jordan?