Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

keras

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Since you seem to demand one clear verse for every doctrine you will accept - where exactly is that fact found in the scriptures?
There are many prophesies that tell how the Lord's people, now every faithful Christian, Galatians 3:26-29, will gather into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, and Romans 9:24-26 tells us we are the children of the Living God and we will be in the very place that ethnic Israel were told; they were no longer His people.
This is our promise and our heritage, Ephesians 1:11-14, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-19

We Christians will be the people that God always wanted in His holy Land. We will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, and the Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8
It does say clearly that our citizenship is in Heaven.
Yes, our names are Written in the Book of Life in heaven. We do not ever go to live in heaven. God made us to live on earth and eventually He will come and dwell with us here, Revelation 21:1-7
 
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keras

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You mean as in places such as Jordan?
No. Jordan is too close to where the AC will be in power.
I believe the place of safety will be in New Zealand. I may be biased:wave: but many prophesies allude to this possibility.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Yes, our names are Written in the Book of Life in heaven. We do not ever go to live in heaven. God made us to live on earth and eventually He will come and dwell with us here, Revelation 21:1-7
It clearly says that our "citizenship" is in Heaven - not just our names.

It clearly says that He has gone to Heaven to prepare our place and He will take us there.

The new Jerusalem (the church, the bride of Christ) does indeed come down out of Heaven to the new earth and the nations will come to it to receive light on that new earth.

To come down "out of Heaven" (albeit the "new Heaven") to the new earth she must first be "IN" Heaven.

He also "prepared" us for our new role. As I see it, that preparation will be done in Heaven and not on this cursed earth while we are hidden away in some cleft in the mountains of New Zealand while the nations rage round about and earthquakes, meteorites, dictators and demons devastate the earth.

By the way - New Zealand is an island is it not?

"And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found." Revelation 16:20

I don't know where there will be a place unaffected on this old earth for New Zealand to flee to in those days.

I don't know how she will look without all those beautiful mountains she's famous for. I do know though that the trout fishing won't likely be as good as it is now. :)
 
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BABerean2

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Daniel 9:26 says the sanctuary is destroyed. Problem is that the sanctuary is not destroyed. The stones of the old Jewish temple still stand today. Ever heard of the wailing wall? Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse that no stone will be left standing.

During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada wrote a letter stating that the only thing left in Jerusalem was that built by the Romans.

What did the Romans build in Jerusalem?

Based on the writings of Josephus, the Romans built Fort Antonia near the Jewish temple to house the thousands of Roman soldiers needed to police the city of Jerusalem during the time of Christ.
Other Roman forts have been found in other nations which were built at about the same time period.
Those other Roman forts are about the same size and shape as the area now known as "The Temple Mount".


Every day thousands pray at a wall built by the Romans.

Today Jews and Muslims argue over who owns an ancient Roman fort.

The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia



When Jesus said that no two stones would be left stacked one on top of another, that is what He meant.

The Romans took the temple down to ground level looking for gold after the fire that destroyed the temple.

The actual temple site was near Gihon Spring.
Water was needed to clean up the mess from the daily sacrifices in the temple.


Read the book "Temple" by Robert Cornuke if you want to understand the actual site of the ancient temple, based on the excavations of Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron.
He is the man that rediscovered the Pool of Siloam several years ago.


.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Daniel 9:26 says the sanctuary is destroyed. Problem is that the sanctuary is not destroyed. The stones of the old Jewish temple still stand today. Ever heard of the wailing wall? Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse that no stone will be left standing.

Jason

Once again I am the bear of bad new for you about your theology facts. The wailing (west) wall was not part of the temple but part of the temple mount.

Western Wall - Wikipedia
It is an ancient limestone wall in the Old City of Jerusalem. It is a relatively small segment of a far longer ancient retaining wall, known also in its entirety as the "Western Wall". The wall was originally erected as part of the expansion of the Second Jewish Temple begun by Herod the Great, which resulted in the encasement of the natural, steep hill known to Jews and Christians as the Temple Mount, in a large rectangular structure topped by a huge flat platform, thus creating more space for the Temple itself and its auxiliary buildings.

Herod the Great - Wikipedia
In the 18th year of his reign (20–19 BCE), Herod rebuilt the Temple on "a more magnificent scale".[36] Although work on out-buildings and courts continued for another 80 years, the new Temple was finished in a year and a half.[37] To comply with religious law, Herod employed 1,000 priests as masons and carpenters in the rebuilding.[36] The finished temple, which was destroyed in 70 CE, is sometimes referred to as Herod's Temple. Today, only the four retaining walls remain standing, including the Western Wall. These walls created a flat platform (the Temple Mount) upon which the Temple was then constructed.

The temple was destroyed in 70 ad.
Siege of Jerusalem (AD 70) - Wikipedia
 
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Marilyn C

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Hello, I am a 19-year-old fellow Christian, and I have plenty of concerns regarding the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PTR).

So, my request for you, is that can you please tell me why people believe in the PTR, and allow me to possibly debate you? Or, if you are anti-PTR, like me, if there is any scripture that sheds a little extra light on the situation that I don't know, that would be greatly appreciated, or if you have anything else you'd like to add about why the PTR is false.
I'm open to any other debate about anything else you have to say regarding the rapture. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, and you'd like to point it out to me, or maybe you have a view that disagrees with both sides (I know that are a lot of different theories about the end times, so let's constrict this to viewpoints concerning the PTR, not the second coming in general).

Thanks in advance for your replies! I appreciate your opinion.
In Christ, Matt

Hi Matt,

Well I certainly believe in the pre-trib rapture, or catching away of the Body of Christ. My reasons are that God`s word says that when the Body of Christ has come to maturity then God will send Jesus to bring them to His own throne in the 3rd heaven. There he will be visibly crowned with the Body of Christ as kingpriests, and they together will judge fallen angels and the world system, as God`s word says.

The Body of Christ is the first `cab` off the rank, the first purpose to be fulfilled and then all other restorations follow.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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keras

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I've never heard of that.
I said it was just alluded to. Isaiah 42:12
But plainly the place of safety must be faraway from Jerusalem. The verse in Daniel 11:41 does not say the Lord's people will live there. That area is within artillery shot of Jerusalem.
 
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keras

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It clearly says that our "citizenship" is in Heaven - not just our names.

It clearly says that He has gone to Heaven to prepare our place and He will take us there.

The new Jerusalem (the church, the bride of Christ) does indeed come down out of Heaven to the new earth and the nations will come to it to receive light on that new earth.

To come down "out of Heaven" (albeit the "new Heaven") to the new earth she must first be "IN" Heaven.

He also "prepared" us for our new role. As I see it, that preparation will be done in Heaven and not on this cursed earth while we are hidden away in some cleft in the mountains of New Zealand while the nations rage round about and earthquakes, meteorites, dictators and demons devastate the earth.

By the way - New Zealand is an island is it not?

"And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found." Revelation 16:20

I don't know where there will be a place unaffected on this old earth for New Zealand to flee to in those days.

I don't know how she will look without all those beautiful mountains she's famous for. I do know though that the trout fishing won't likely be as good as it is now. :)
Having citizenship of a country, does not mean you must live there. As Christians our citizenship is in heaven, that is right, but we don't live there. And nowhere does the Bible say we will. Jesus clearly states that such a thing is impossible. John 3:13
Your use of John 14:1-3 as a rapture proof, is in error, as Jesus said; .....I will come again and take you to Myself..... So the gathering happens after His Return, As Matthew 24:31 clearly states.

Yes; New Zealand consists two large islands and many smaller ones. But your use of Rev 16:20 is about the destruction of Babylon, does not apply to entire nations.
 
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During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada wrote a letter stating that the only thing left in Jerusalem was that built by the Romans.

What did the Romans build in Jerusalem?

Based on the writings of Josephus, the Romans built Fort Antonia near the Jewish temple to house the thousands of Roman soldiers needed to police the city of Jerusalem during the time of Christ.
Other Roman forts have been found in other nations which were built at about the same time period.
Those other Roman forts are about the same size and shape as the area now known as "The Temple Mount".

Every day thousands pray at a wall built by the Romans.

Today Jews and Muslims argue over who owns an ancient Roman fort.
Jason

Once again I am the bear of bad new for you about your theology facts. The wailing (west) wall was not part of the temple but part of the temple mount.

Western Wall - Wikipedia
It is an ancient limestone wall in the Old City of Jerusalem. It is a relatively small segment of a far longer ancient retaining wall, known also in its entirety as the "Western Wall". The wall was originally erected as part of the expansion of the Second Jewish Temple begun by Herod the Great, which resulted in the encasement of the natural, steep hill known to Jews and Christians as the Temple Mount, in a large rectangular structure topped by a huge flat platform, thus creating more space for the Temple itself and its auxiliary buildings.

Herod the Great - Wikipedia
In the 18th year of his reign (20–19 BCE), Herod rebuilt the Temple on "a more magnificent scale".[36] Although work on out-buildings and courts continued for another 80 years, the new Temple was finished in a year and a half.[37] To comply with religious law, Herod employed 1,000 priests as masons and carpenters in the rebuilding.[36] The finished temple, which was destroyed in 70 CE, is sometimes referred to as Herod's Temple. Today, only the four retaining walls remain standing, including the Western Wall. These walls created a flat platform (the Temple Mount) upon which the Temple was then constructed.

The temple was destroyed in 70 ad.
Siege of Jerusalem (AD 70) - Wikipedia

Man's record of history is not true compared to the words of Jesus and God's Word.
For you are ignoring the words Jesus. First, the disciples asked Jesus, ‘Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Last I checked, the end of world did not take place in 70 A.D.


Second, the disciples did not show Jesus the temple but the buildings of the temple!

For Matthew 24 says,

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple." (Matthew 24:1).

So the buildings within the temple were in context to the words of Jesus when He said,

"See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Matthew 24:2).

Oh, and it is not true that there are no stones left upon another in the buildings pertaining to the temple; So this prophecy was not fulfilled in 70 A.D.
 
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BABerean2

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‘Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

You seem to have missed the fact that there are two separate questions here.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?

2. What will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the world?

Jesus answered both questions in the Olivet Discourse, as revealed by the following parallel study of the Gospel accounts.

............................................
Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.



Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)



Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 

Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )





Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 





Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )



Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 

Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 

Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 

Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 

Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 

Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 



Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )



Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 



Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 



Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.



The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple.

Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.

Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

.
 
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You seem to have missed the fact that there are two separate questions here.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?

2. What will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the world?

Jesus answered both questions in the Olivet Discourse, as revealed by the following parallel study of the Gospel accounts.

............................................
Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.



Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)



Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 

Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )





Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 





Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )



Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 

Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 

Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 

Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 

Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 

Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 



Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )



Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 



Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 



Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)


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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.



The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple.

Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.

Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.

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.

I actually do not find it fruitful to endlessly debate Eschatology.
Anyways, I made my case and you are simply ignoring it.
Not debating with you anymore.
Goodbye, my friend;
May God bless you in any good you do for the Lord.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Having citizenship of a country, does not mean you must live there. As Christians our citizenship is in heaven, that is right, but we don't live there. And nowhere does the Bible say we will. Jesus clearly states that such a thing is impossible. John 3:13
Nonsense. It says no such thing.
Your use of John 14:1-3 as a rapture proof, is in error, as Jesus said; .....I will come again and take you to Myself..... So the gathering happens after His Return, As Matthew 24:31 clearly states.
the scripture clearly say that we will meet Him in the air not on the earth.
Yes; New Zealand consists two large islands and many smaller ones. But your use of Rev 16:20 is about the destruction of Babylon, does not apply to entire nations.
No - the destruction of Babylon comes after the disturbance of every island and every mountain.

Either way - your theory that the church will be taken to New Zealand rather than ruptured to meet the Lord in the clouds and on to Heaven is a bit far fetched IMO.
 
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keras

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Either way - your theory that the church will be taken to New Zealand rather than ruptured to meet the Lord in the clouds and on to Heaven is a bit far fetched IMO.
I don't like the 'ruptured ' idea!
Actually we who remain alive after the Great Tribulation, will be transported to meet the Lord. There is no hint in 1 Thess 4 of a rapture to heaven.
We were discussing where the place of safety was, not the Return.
Nonsense. It says no such thing.
So if your citizenship is in heaven now, why are you here on earth?
Re a 'rapture to heaven'. if you disagree with Jesus, John 3:13 and other verses, then provide scriptural proof that God does intend to take His people to heaven. Assumptions and inferences are invalid.
 
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JacksBratt

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True Christians are those who have been born again in Jesus. Not those who go to church for social or any other reason,
I understand and agree... however, this changes nothing... it's just a definition.


Plus; as I said only half will go to the place of safety.
OK... so 500 million to 1 billion people... still a huge number to be moved.

Not that God is not capable of it but that is still a very very large number of people to move.
 
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JacksBratt

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During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada wrote a letter stating that the only thing left in Jerusalem was that built by the Romans.

What did the Romans build in Jerusalem?

Based on the writings of Josephus, the Romans built Fort Antonia near the Jewish temple to house the thousands of Roman soldiers needed to police the city of Jerusalem during the time of Christ.
Other Roman forts have been found in other nations which were built at about the same time period.
Those other Roman forts are about the same size and shape as the area now known as "The Temple Mount".


Every day thousands pray at a wall built by the Romans.

Today Jews and Muslims argue over who owns an ancient Roman fort.

The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia



When Jesus said that no two stones would be left stacked one on top of another, that is what He meant.

The Romans took the temple down to ground level looking for gold after the fire that destroyed the temple.

The actual temple site was near Gihon Spring.
Water was needed to clean up the mess from the daily sacrifices in the temple.


Read the book "Temple" by Robert Cornuke if you want to understand the actual site of the ancient temple, based on the excavations of Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron.
He is the man that rediscovered the Pool of Siloam several years ago.


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I agree.

New information is coming in. The Dome on the Rock is on the wrong rock. The wailing wall is not part of the old temple.

I eagerly wait for this to unfold. It will change the dynamics of the political and religious paradigm in the Middle East.
 
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JacksBratt

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I said it was just alluded to. Isaiah 42:12
But plainly the place of safety must be faraway from Jerusalem. The verse in Daniel 11:41 does not say the Lord's people will live there. That area is within artillery shot of Jerusalem.
Actually, the place is not an earthly place and 100% of the body of Christ will be taken there in a twinkling of an eye.

Christ said "I will never leave you or forsake you"... did He not?

Hebrews 13:5King James Version (KJV)

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.



Christ also said that He would send the "comforter" in His absence. To be with us FOREVER

John 14:16King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


But this comforter is also "The One who restrains" and "the one who restrains" has to be removed in order for the Anti Christ to succeed.


2 Thessalonians 2:6-8New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

How can Christ remove "the one who now restrains" without breaking His promise to "never leave you or forsake you" when "the one who now restrains" was the comforter that He sent to "abide with us forever"?


The Holy Spirit will be removed at the same time that the "church" or "body of Christ" or "Christian" or all that are "saved" are removed also...

Then and only then will the Anti Christ and Satan be able to do their work on an earth where people, who are morally driven under their own consciences, will be able to be swayed, convinced and corrupted to take the mark and bring the wrath of God down on the entire earth.

 
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Marvin Knox

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Yes; New Zealand consists two large islands and many smaller ones. But your use of Rev 16:20 is about the destruction of Babylon, does not apply to entire nations.
Unless of course that nation happens to be an island nation like yours.

Then the scriptures are pretty straight forward about it's physical fate.

Those really big Tribulation Tsunamis will suck. No doubt about.:)
So if your citizenship is in heaven now, why are you here on earth?
I've been associated in one way or another with Pentecostals all of my life.

You seem to be the only one who apparently doesn't believe by faith (along with me) that he is even now seated with Christ in Heaven. taking the authority given to him, and ruling the Kingdom by force - all things having been placed under the feet of Christ in whom we now have our own identity as His body on earth.
 
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BABerean2

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The Holy Spirit will be removed at the same time that the "church" or "body of Christ" or "Christian" or all that are "saved" are removed also...

Then and only then will the Anti Christ and Satan be able to do their work on an earth where people, who are morally driven under their own consciences, will be able to be swayed, convinced and corrupted to take the mark and bring the wrath of God down on the entire earth.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

Therefore, the "Church Age" or the "Age of Grace" cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.
This is confirmed by those under the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.


.
 
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