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Featured Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Matisyahu8898, Oct 19, 2017.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie, was a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, who wrote the book "Dispensationalism".

    You need to read his book if you think Darby and Scofield were not instrumental in creating modern Dispensational Theology.

    The pretrib doctrine cannot be separated from Dispensational Theology, by those who are honest with the history of the doctrine.


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    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Rapture:
    (The 1st Rapture or Translation of the Saints):

    Description of the Rapture:

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53

    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​


    Clues Concerning the Rapture:


    John 14:3

    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

    Isaiah 26:20 NLT

    Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.​

    Matthew 25:10

    And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.​

    Hebrews 9:28 ESV

    So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.​


    Commentary: - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

    The term rapture comes from the Greek word harpazo, which means "to seize, catch away, catch up, pluck, pull, take by force" (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The Hebrew equivalent is the word natzal. It is the time when the Lord will come for His own, when Jesus will descend through the stratosphere and take those of us who have trusted in Him to be with Himself. It is imminent, it can happen at any moment; it can happen today, it can happen ten years from now. We do not know when it will be, but it could happen at any time. And so, the prophecy of the Feast of Trumpets will be fulfilled in the Rapture of the Church. It has not yet been fulfilled. We are still in the period between Pentecost and Trumpets in God's prophetic calendar.

    [​IMG]

    However, one of the biggest misunderstandings of the Rapture I found is that it is confused with the Second coming of Christ or what I would like to call the "2nd Rapture". This confusion usually stems from a person not fully grasping the necessary different steps in marriage and how it relates to Christ and His Bride (i.e. the church). For the 1st Rapture is the actual call to the marriage itself and the 2nd Rapture (i.e. The Second Coming) is the call to the marriage supper (See commentary in Last Half of Tribulation).

    But, whatever position you hold on the Rapture, I think it is safe to assume that most of us here will all agree that the Lord's Rapture of His church is analogous to marriage in some way and that there is some kind of call announcing it.

    In fact, there is a great New Testament passage that talks about marriage and a call being made. It is the parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). A parable that is about a bridegroom putting out the call for marriage and ten virgins being properly ready for that call so that they could take part in his wedding ceremony. For these virgins did not know the hour of his call for they were surprised Genesis 41:45 and Psalm 81:3, Joseph had blown the trumpet on the new moon during the feast day through out the land of Egypt just after receiving permission to marry Asenath.

    So when Joseph went out through the land of Egypt:

    Genesis 41:45-46 (Joseph had received Asenath to marry)

    And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnathpaaneah; and he gave him to wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On. And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt. And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went through out all the land of Egypt.​

    Psalm 81:3-5 (Joseph had blown the trumpet on feast day within the new moon)

    Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day. For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob. This he ordained in Joseph for a testimony, when he went out through the land of Egypt: where I heard a language that I understood not.​

    Wow, isn't that amazing? Here we have the receiving of the bride and the blowing of the trumpet on the new moon within the feast of days. A wedding and a trumpet call both being made!

    Now, is there any significance to this Feast of Days and this New Moon in relation to the Rapture?

    I believe there is. In accordance with the ancient Jews:

    The feast of days mentioned here in the Bible is the Jewish Feast of Trumpets.

    It is also called the Yom Teruah, and it is the day that is marked on most calendars as Rosh Hashanah and is followed ten days later by the Day of Atonement. Yom Teruah means “Day of Shouting” and can refer to the shout of a trumpet or a voice. It’s a day of remembrance and shouting, or Zicharon Teruah meaning remembrance shouting.

    Now, before looking further into the theological meaning of the Feast of the Trumpets, it might be well to clarify how this feast became known as Rosh Hashanah, "the beginning of the year," though it was observed on the first day of the seventh month.

    The answer to this apparent contradiction is found in the fact that the Jews had both a religious and civil calendar. The religious calendar, which regulated the festivals, began in the spring, in accordance with God’s command at the time of the Exodus: "This month shall be for you the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year for your" (Exodus 12:2) (Deuteronomy 16:1). The first month in the religious year was the month in which the Israelites left Egypt and celebrated Passover, the feast of their redemption. It was originally called Abib "the month of the ears," but after the Babylonian exile was named Nisan. It began at our new moon of our March or April.

    The civil and agricultural year, as well as the sabbatical and jubilee years, began in the autumn with the seventh month, which after the Babylonian exile became known as Tishri. If it seems strange that the Jews should begin their civil year on the seventh month, it may be well to remember that even in our society the fiscal year for many organizations begins in other months than January.

    However, the seasonal cycle of nature came to an end with the fall harvest, which marked also the beginning of a new agricultural cycle with the return of the early rains that softened the ground for plowing which was done in October and November. This contributed to place the beginning of the civil and agricultural year on the month of Tishri, though it was the seven month with respect to Nisan. Thus the Jews had a double reckoning, the religious year beginning with the first month and the civil year beginning with the seven month; And the beginning of this seventh month or start of the agricultural new year is celebrated with the Feast of Trumpets.

    According to Jewish customs: Here are some interesting parallels of the Feast of Trumpets that can be found in the Rapture:


    • Feast of Trumpets is called the Last Trump (For there are three shofarim or horns: The first trump is Pentecost, the last trump is the Feast of Trumpets, and the great trump is the Day of Atonement).
    But is there any kind of Biblical connection to this Feast of Trumpets within Corinthians or Thessalonians? Yes, there is a connection found in 1st Corinthians. However, first we need to explain the spiritual meaning behind the New Moon on the Feast of Trumpets, though; For Colossians 2:16-17 says that the new moon will teach us about the Messiah. So if this is the case, shouldn't there be a passage about the new moon in Scripture that talks about the Messiah then? Well, there is not a passage that gives us an answer to this question directly but there is one that does so indirectly, though. How so?

    Well, if we were to look in the book of Malachi, we would find that the sun is idiomatic of the Son of God.

    Malachi 4:2

    But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.​

    Also, Jesus Himself had said that He is the light of the world (John 8:12).

    So, just as the moon can be seen at night when it is reflecting the light of the sun, true believers today can be seen reflecting the light of Christ to a dark and dying world.

    2 Corinthians 4:6

    For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.​

    Matthew 5:16

    Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.​

    For even Genesis says, that we were made in God's image (Genesis 1:27). So even the physical appearance of man is a reflected image of God. This is a type or a parallel just as being a true born again Christian is a type of the new moon.

    In other words, the meaning of the new moon is symbolic of a person becoming new or born again in Jesus. So just as the new moon starts a new year, a person can start a new life in Christ.

    2 Corinthians 5:17

    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

    So okay, now that we established that the new moon is representative of a person being born again in Christ, how does this piece of information relate to 1st Corinthians? Well, if we were to look and compare Scripture again, we would see a very interesting word that appears in both 1st Peter and 1st Corinthians. That word is "incorruptible".

    1 Peter 1:23

    Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.​

    1 Corinthians 15:51-52

    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

    In other words, the word "incorruptible" lets us know that being born again is tied and related to the Rapture. But how does this relate to the celebration of the Feast of Trumpets, though? Well, the ancient Jews celebrated the Feast of Trumpets for two days because they did not know the exact day or hour the new moon would appear. So just as the saints in the Old Testament did not know the day or hour the new moon would happen on the Feast of Trumpets, the New Testament saints today do not know the day or hour the Rapture is going to happen; And just as the traditional Biblical Jew is the only one to participate in the Feast of Trumpets, the true born again Christian during the right time is the only one who will participate in the 1st Rapture.

    Commentary - John 14:3, Matthew 25:10, and Hebrews 9:28 ESV

    There are some interesting things to notice that are different about the Rapture (i.e. The Appearing) and the Second Coming.

    At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

    Hebrews 9:28 ESV

    So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.​

    Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth:

    Revelation 1:7

    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

    At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

    1 Thessalonians 4:17

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

    John 14:3

    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

    However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints:

    Jude 1:14

    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.​

    Revelation 19:14

    And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.​

    At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

    Matthew 25:10

    And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.​

    But at the second coming to earth, He is returning from a wedding:

    Luke 12:36

    And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.



    The Dead in Christ Are Taken From Abraham's Bosom By the Rapture:

    (Both the Old Testament Saints and Church Age Saints in Abraham's Bosom Are Called to Rise To Meet the Lord in the Air. For in the Rapture: The Dead in Christ Shall Rise First):

    Zechariah 9:11 NIV and 1 Thessalonians 4:16

    For... I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit. And with the trump of God... the dead in Christ shall rise first:​


    Commentary - Zechariah 9:11 and Thessalonians 4:16

    Zechariah 9:11 is a prophetic Old Testament passage about the taking up of the saints from Abraham's bosom.

    What is Abraham's Bosom?

    Abraham's bosom (which is also known as Paradise) is described in Luke 16:19-31. It is a real place of comfort within the spirit realm; A temporary paradise where the saint's soul and spiritual body resides consciously to be with the Lord when their physical body dies (Genesis 3:19) (Ecclesiastes 12:7) (Luke 16:22). This paradise is located within the realm of the dead below the Earth (Which is also known as Sheol or Hades) which is separated by a great gulf from the fiery place of punishment known as "Torments" or what is commonly known as "Hell" (Luke 16:26) (Luke 16:23). It will be a place where the saint will be comforted (Luke 16:25). But, why is Abraham's bosom also called Paradise? Well, on the day of Christ's sacrifice, he had told the thief on the cross that: "This day, you shall be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). But yet, Scripture tells us that when Christ died, he was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights, though (Matthew 12:40). So this leads us to conclude that during Christ's three days within the grave before His resurrection, He was with the thief in Abraham's bosom which is located in the heart (or the center) of the Earth.

    Does Abraham's Bosom Still Exist Within the Church Age Today?

    The real life story (or event) told by Jesus within Luke 16:19-31 took place during the time of Moses (Luke 16:29). However, the important question that must be asked is: Does Abraham's Bosom still exist today, though?

    Well, yes, I believe according to the plain reading of Scripture that Abraham's bosom still exists today within our present church age. For all true saints who die in Christ right now will go to be with the Lord down in Abraham's bosom and then later they will be taken up into Heaven when the Rapture occurs. For how else will the dead in Christ rise first? See 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Do the dead in Christ rise to go to Heaven and then come back down somewhere temporarily to be risen again at the Rapture? Do they rise in Christ twice spiritually? If so, where is the verse that explains this?

    In fact, many Christians today who are well versed in studying the Scriptures believe they go straight to Heaven; This is a common misconception because they interpret the ascension of Christ mentioned in Ephesians 4:8 as the time of when the saints in Abraham's bosom are being taken to Heaven.

    Ephesians 4:8 - "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive."

    In other words, based on this passage, most Christians believe that Christ led those saints who were in captivity in Abraham's bosom captive up into Heaven when Christ ascended. However, is this what Ephesians 4:8 is talking about, though?

    No, actually it is actually talking about how when Christ ascended, He bound the enemy or the powers of darkness. How so? Well, our first clue to this fact is to look at the parallel reference of this passage located in Judges chapter five.

    Judges 5:12 - "Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead your captives captive, you son of Abinoam."

    Now, without boring you with all the details, to make a long story short, if you were to read Judged chapter 5, you would find out that Barak was leading his enemies captive and not his friends. To put it to you another way, the moment a true Christian is born again and then dedicates their life to Christ, they are then no longer Christ's enemy. For those in Abraham's bosom are God's elect or chosen who had put their trust in God to redeem them of their sins (See Luke 16:19-31).

    As a matter of fact, Gill's Exposition of the Bible says this...
    "He led captivity captive; which is expressive of Christ's conquests and triumph over sin, Satan, the world, death, and the grave; and indeed, every spiritual enemy of his and his people, especially the devil, who leads men captive at his will, and is therefore called captivity, and his principalities and powers, whom Christ has spoiled and triumphed over;"And 2nd Timothy says this...

    2 Timothy 2:26 - "And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. For when Christ had raised from the dead he put all things including the principalities and powers of darkness under his feet."

    Therefore, the word "captivity" is a reference to Satan leading people captive to his will and lets us know the true context or meaning behind Ephesians 4:8.

    For when Christ had risen from the dead, He put all things including the principalities and powers of darkness under his feet.

    Ephesians 1:20-23 "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."


    Those Who Are Alive in Christ on the Earth Are Then Raptured:
    (The Church Age Saints Are Called to Rise To Meet the Lord in the Air. This is Similar to the Translation of Enoch whereby He did Not Die):

    1 Thessalonians 4:17

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.​


    Promise of the Rapture:

    (A Deliverance of the Wrath to Come):

    1 Thessalonians 1:10

    "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."​

    1 Thessalonians 5:9

    "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"​


    Admonishes about being ready for the Rapture:

    (In order to miss out on the 7 Year Tribulation):

    Matthew 24:36-51

    But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

    Mark 13:32-37

    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.​

    Luke 21:34-36

    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.​

    Revelation 3:10

    Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.​

    Luke 12:45-46

    But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​


    Commentary: - Thessalonians 1:10, Thessalonians 5:9

    The Promise of the Rapture according to Thessalonians chapter one and five is that we will be saved from the Wrath to come. What does this mean?

    Well, in order to answer this question, we need to understand two things according to Scripture. First, we need to understand Daniel's 70 Weeks to have a basic foundation of the time frame of the Tribulation. Second, we need to define what the Day of the Lord is and when it takes place. So please check out my post titled the "1st Half of the Tribulation" and then check out the "Day of the Lord" in my post titled the "Last Half of the Tribulation".

    Commentary: - Matthew 24:36-51, Mark 13:32-37, Luke 21:34-36, Luke 12:45-46

    The Olivet discourse passages in Matthew, Mark, and Luke make it clear that we do not know the day or hour of the Rapture. If you hold to a Pre-Wrath (Pre-Mid Trib), Pre-Wrath (Post Mid Trib), Mid-Trib, or Post-Trib view on the Rapture, then you have to either ignore these passages or twist them slightly to fit your eschatology. Now, many will say that you can still not know the day or the hour with a view other than a the Pre-Trib position, but that is just not the case at all. For a person can clearly see the signs happening all around them within the Tribulation, and then they can be prepared, thereby having an idea of when the day or the hour is going to happen. The second problem with not holding to a Pre-Trib Rapture is that Matthew relates a person to someone who thinks the Lord is coming later (rather than at any moment) with that of an evil servant.

    "If that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;" ~(Matthew 24:48-49)

    So if you are against the Pre-Trib Rapture, then the Lord is not coming now or at any moment but He is delaying His coming to a time you think it says.

    For Matthew continues to say,

    "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder" ~ (Matthew 24:50-51a)

    In other words, this passage is saying that the Lord will come in a day or hour when you will not looking for Him. For the moment you pinpoint a certain period of time of His return and look for Him in that time frame is a direct violation of this verse and others that warn us to be ready at any moment.

    In fact, Jesus Christ warned us that if a church does not repent of it's wickedness, it will go thru the great tribulation...

    "And unto... the church in Thyatira... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." ~ (Revelation 2:18, 21-22)

    How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?

    Paul had written to Titus and said this to him in his letter...

    Titus 2:13
    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;To put it to you another way, Paul believed in looking for the imminent return of His Savior Jesus Christ. If Paul believed he would have had to go thru the tribulation, he would not have said this.

    Also, Paul used the words "Last Trump" in Corinthians as a reference to the Jewish "Last Trumpet" of the Feast of Trumpets. The Corinthians at that time would have had no knowledge of John's written Revelation about the Last Trumpet Judgment because it was not written yet. So Paul mentioned a name to something that the Corinthians would have already been familiar with.

    Okay, so now that we established that the Pre-Trib view has significant weight according to Scripture and that it can be imminent or happen at any moment, lets examine some of the other positions on the timing of the Rapture and why these other views do not work (Note: The following positions are examined under the Biblical Standpoint that the Fourth Seal is the Anti-Christ's enforcement of the Mark or the Martydom of the Saints (Please see my Commentary and Time Line on the Fourth Seal Below in my Post Titled "The Last Half of the Tribulation".

    The Pre-Wrath (Pre-Mid Trib) View:
    The Pre-Wrath (Pre-Mid Trib) Position does not work because there would not be enough time for new believers after the Rapture to populate into the great number of saints that we see in Heaven at the breaking of the fifth seal that come out of the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Which is the Anti-Christ's enforcement of the Mark or the breaking of the Fourth Seal).

    The Pre-Wrath (Post Mid Trib) or Mid Trib Views:
    The Pre-Wrath (Post Mid Trib) or Mid Trib Positions do not work because we already have seen the Saints in Heaven from the Great Tribulation at the breaking of the fifth seal crying out for vengeance before the supposed Rapture point after the breaking of the sixth or seventh seal. The "Harpazo" or Rapture cannot happen at these points because the Rapture is a relatively short uninterrupted one time event that happens at the Trump of God with the dead rising in Christ first and the rest of the living saints then being caught up in the air. In other words, an honest reading of Thessalonians 4:16-18 suggests that there is no time gap in the description of this event. Now, some have suggested that those saints at the breaking of the fifth seal are waiting for their new resurrected bodies under the altar of God. However, there is no Biblical proof of this. Actually, the Harpazo in Thessalonians tells us that the dead in Christ shall "rise". Where exactly are they rising from? It appears they are already in Heaven with the Lord. Where else can they rise to? Well, within the Rapture, the dead in Christ are rising from Abraham's bosom. But to interpret the English word "rise" as a moment of the saint already in Heaven as a receiving of their new resurrected bodies is a huge stretch of the imagination that goes way beyond the text.

    The Post Trib View:
    The Post Trib Position does not work because it has to ignore the Wrath of God being poured out with the Vial or Bowl Judgments; For Thessalonians 1:10 says we are delivered from the Wrath to come. This view also does not work because the dead in Christ are already in Heaven waiting to follow Christ into battle, too. For one, there is no rising up of the dead mentioned in the Olivet discourse or Revelation at Christ's Second Coming. Second, as mentioned before, the saints are already in Heaven way back at the fifth seal and they did not rise up yet again for the Second Coming of Christ. These dead in Christ have been in Heaven with God for quite some time already.
     
  3. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Pentecostal
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    You have six headings listed in your rapture promotion.
    Here is the seventh:
    What Jesus said about people going to heaven:
    John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
    Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

    John 7:33-34I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
    A plain statement that also applies forever.

    John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
    Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

    John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
    Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

    Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
    This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11

    Jason, none of your quotes and so called 'clues' for a rapture, actually say that God will take His people to heaven. This idea is just assumed and inferred.
     
  4. GirdYourLoins

    GirdYourLoins Well-Known Member

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    I gave up worrying about it years ago. At the end of the day we dont know what will happen when so for me it is sufficient to put my trust in my Father in Heaven that He will take care of me in whatever I face.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not true.

    John 14:2-3 says,
    2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

    "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:" (Revelation 6:9).

    Most are confused on this topic because they do not realize there are 2 Raptures.
    The 1st Rapture is at any moment before the Tribulation and the 2nd Rapture is sometime shortly before Christ returns (i.e. His 2nd Coming).

    At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

    Hebrews 9:28 ESV

    So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.​

    Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth:

    Revelation 1:7

    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

    At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

    1 Thessalonians 4:17

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    John 14:3

    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

    However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints:

    Jude 1:14

    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.

    Revelation 19:14

    And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.​

    At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

    Matthew 25:10

    And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.​

    But at the second coming to earth, He is returning from a wedding:

    Luke 12:36

    And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.​
     
  6. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Some form of dispensationism is absolutely necessary to understand eschatology IMO.

    The pre-trib rapture makes perfect sense to me.

    Those ideas so often brought up about just who "started" the concepts about dispensations and the rapture and when they started them are ridiculous and irrelevant to studying out the truth of the matter IMO.
     
  7. HeatRamosHidden

    HeatRamosHidden Member

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    The most important belief in the Rapture is that it is what it is. Whether it's the Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath, only matters, although they do matter, in less importance than the fact of having a belief on the Rapture in the first place. Whosever reads the Revelation and heeds it's words are blessed by it. Although I believe that accuracy is extremely important, listening to God in the first place is even more important.

    I've listened to Pre-Tribulation people of whom I count myself, and they condemn other Christians on fallacious assumptions that there is a plot against God and Bible based on other Rapture positions, and I've listened to Post Tribulation and other Rapture positions against our beliefs, claiming that we are arrogant for believing the Rapture is only for us, or worse, that we believe we are better than other people period, because they had to go through tribulation while we don't.

    This is stupid, because the most important belief that someone can have is belief in the Word Of God. Post, Pre-Trib, Mid, Pre-Wrath are infinitely behind belief in Jesus Christ as our atonement on the Cross. I haven't gotten to see everything in this thread yet, but people in general need to stop condemning other Christians for not being theological clones of each other.
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's how cults begin and continue. If anyone can propose that anything is truth, without its being vetted by the benchmarks of true Christian Church doctrinal orthodoxy through history, then doctrine devolves into chaos.

    There is no record of enduring belief in a pretrib rapture to be found in true Christian Church doctrinal orthodoxy up to the 19th century.
     
  9. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    Great errors by John Otis.
     
  10. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    Nice expository. I always wonder why, however, a poster posts the scripture reference, then quotes it verbatim, when it is highlighted on the screen and right there for folks to click on.
     
  11. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    ......but it is right there in scripture. O well.......
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then it should be indisputably evident for 1800 years.

    It isn't.
     
  13. HeatRamosHidden

    HeatRamosHidden Member

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    I have a question, why hasn't our Christian Church gotten rid of slavery until the 19th century. . .
    Just because people have believed in something for a long time doesn't make it right. I'm not saying my doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is necessarily one hundred percent proven, you must remember the Revival of Israel by the King "Hezekiah" please correct me if I'm wrong. He rediscovered the Old Testament after it had been forsaken by the priests and people, and led the the people to believe in YHVH again. What could be is, the Pretribulation Rapture is the correct version and the people of God just didn't believe in it the way they should have.

    I mean just because it's not proven doesn't mean it's disproven.
     
  14. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Are you saying the scriptures I posted are not true?
    Here they are again, they are plain statements of fact:
    Jesus said:
    John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
    John 7:33-34I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
    John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
    John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
    Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

    But with the scriptures you posted; not one of them says what you believe: that the Church will be raptured to heaven.
    What should people conclude about you?
    Really? I know the Bible very well and I cannot see anywhere a rapture to heaven for any living person. Even Elijah was not actually taken to heaven, as we see in 2 Chronicles 21:12
    What we are told that the Lord will do for us, is protection during His terrible Day of wrath, Isaiah 43:2, and then how He will bless His people as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Why do Christians quote Scripture?

    #1. For emphasis on certain words within the Scriptures that others may be ignoring.
    #2. Most people do not read the verse numbers. Especially if you do not tell them to read it.
    #3. Jesus and His followers quoted God's Word.
    #4. Man shall live by every word of God that proceeds out of his mouth (Matthew 4:4); Granted, while this in reference to talking, I believe it can extend to writing out the Word of God for others to see, as well. For writing is just another form of communication of talking.
    #5. We love God's Word.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Did I say that the Scripture verses you posted are not true?
    No. Of course not. Let's not be silly.

    Also, lets not be one sided here, either; I posted Scripture, too.
    What do you think of them?
     
  17. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Some cults began very early on in church history and continue to this day.

    Other than the scriptures themselves?
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Are those cults a recognized part of the true Christian Church?
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sound doctrine does not suddenly and summarily disappear out of the Church's repository of such doctrine. If the rapture were as integral a part of that repository in the NT apostolic era as its proponents would have us believe, we should see ample evidence of its continued and enduring presence into the post-apostolic era.

    Its virtually complete absence for almost 1800 years of post-apostolic true Church history is more than enough reason to believe that it never was an extant part of NT apostolic era Christian orthodoxy to begin with.
     
  20. HeatRamosHidden

    HeatRamosHidden Member

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    It may not be AS integral as a lot of people who believe the way I do think, and I concede, probably not, but it is very important. The Rapture WILL happen, because there are various ways that it could happen, every major important denomination believes in it, except maybe Roman Catholicism, but I just kind of pointed out that Israel forgot it's scriptures for decades, if not life times, why would we people in the New Testament era be any more special?
     
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