Dealing with Liberal Christians

[hedrick]

It's actually my experience. I was surprised the liberal churches I've participated in were actually reinforcing this stereotype.

When I said there are exceptions, I had you in mind, because I've heard you say you're a Liberal Christian and have seen you use scripture.

There are two strains of thought in liberal churches. Traditional liberal Christianity, going back to the 19th Cent and earlier, is based strongly on Biblical scholarship. But we also have members who have given up on knowing much about God, and simply try to live as Christians. My father is like that, so I've got personal experience with the attitude.

One of the reasons I'm a member of the PCUSA rather than other mainline churches is because decisions by the national church are based on careful study of both Scripture and experience of our members. Preaching also tends to be more strongly Biblical than in other mainline churches I've tried. But I acknowledge that we have plenty of members who make no attempt to understand Scripture.

I think you'll find the same thing in evangelical churches. Not everyone is a Biblical scholar. But it's probably more common in our churches. Remember, however, that changes in policy involving gays and trans are being made by presbyteries and national leadership. These are the parts of the church that are most serious about understanding Scripture. We have a number of fine theologians, most of whom support current policies.

(I have to say that there are trendy idiots at the national level as well. They do plenty of bizarre things, often at national meetings. But that's not what policy is based on.)

 

[Monk Brendan]

But I actually get angry seeing people I respect embrace this madness and even tolerate abortion and gay marriage.

Why do you get angry about these things? Abortion is evil, true, but that does NOT mean that we are supposed to be merciless and hard to the woman who has had an abortion. As far as our LGBT brothers, are we not supposed to love our neighbor? Even if our neighbor does belong to a group hated by your group?

Mercy

 

[FireDragon76]

Sometimes the Scriptural bases for our viewpoints in liberal churches are drawn out and don't make for good bullet points.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

There are two strains of thought in liberal churches. Traditional liberal Christianity, going back to the 19th Cent and earlier, is based strongly on Biblical scholarship. But we also have members who have given up on knowing much about God, and simply try to live as Christians.

One of the reasons I'm a member of the PCUSA rather than other mainline churches is because decisions by the national church are based on careful study of both Scripture and experience of our members. Preaching also tends to be more strongly Biblical than in other mainline churches I've tried. But I acknowledge that we have plenty of members who make no attempt to understand Scripture.

I think you'll find the same thing in evangelical churches. Not everyone is a Biblical scholar. But it's probably more common in our churches. Remember, however, that changes in policy involving gays and trans are being made by presbyteries and national leadership. These are the parts of the church that are most serious about understanding Scripture. We have a number of fine theologians, most of whom support current policies.

I noticed a general similarity between evangelical and liberal churches in that evangelical churches allow one sin (per group) as a blindspot so people can relax and socialize. The difference with Liberal churches is that they do this for sins that the evangelicals will not accept of one accord. Of course there are the conservative conservative churches that call evangelical churches liberal as well. So perception is a funny thing that way.

 

[FireDragon76]

if you throw out every sinner in a church I'm afraid churches would be very empty indeed.

 

[redleghunter]

Thanks for your replies. But what happens is that I get treated like I said something really mean and rude, and people tell me how bigoted and hateful I am. Then I feel bad and question, am I wrong? Am I NOT being godly? What if I am wrong, and God would not approve of me thinking this way? I get accused of being crazy and then wonder if I am indeed wrong. What if I am really being hateful?

We are in a fallen world. God made us either male or female in Genesis. What happened after that is a result of our fallen state spiritually, mentally, emotionally and yes physically. There are cases of intersex, and other rare ambiguous sexual gender disorders. Those are clearly medically documented and a very small percentage. Those cases are harder to deal with and is why we have pastoral care to help individuals and families.

The vast majority of transgender cases deal with a clear physically male or female who psychologically or emotionally identifies as the opposite sex. Agsin, our first reaction is to present the truth in love and be willing to minister to those struggling with this.

Jesus healed many who sought out to be healed. He also did not reject a repentant sinner.

 

[redleghunter]

if you throw out every sinner in a church I'm afraid churches would be very empty indeed.

Can't argue that.

Only difference is our churches should be filled with those who seek Christ's Grace and righteousness.

 

[Tom 1]

I would never disown any family member for having a sex change. I would try to talk them out of it, and if I were a parent, I would refuse to pay for my kid's transition. People have time to figure out who they are. What happens if a 5 year old undergoes transition and then ten years later regrets it? It's too late. It's not a good thing to do with children. They could wait until they were 18. No one ever said anything about anyone going to hell. The topic of the conversation was how to handle it with other strong Christians who support it.

There are plenty of stories out there, although the lgbt lobby does its best to play it down, of poor souls who got lost in this and ended up later in life having to deal with their surgically altered body, realising it was all just a mistake.

 

[redleghunter]

I noticed a general similarity between evangelical and liberal churches in that evangelical churches allow one sin (per group) as a blindspot so people can relax and socialize. The difference with Liberal churches is that they do this for sins that the evangelicals will not accept of one accord. Of course there are the conservative conservative churches that call evangelical churches liberal as well. So perception is a funny thing that way.

All churches are 100% filled with sinners.

The wheat are those who confess and repent of their sins. The tares are those who don't.

I can see your point of blind spot but must ask what you mean.

My pastor had a good sermon in September about "liberal" sins and "conservative" sins. He did it according to what the one said of the other.

He gave an example that conservatives will point out homosexuality but liberals will point out hypocrisy and coldness. Both sets are found as sins (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) in the NT.

I believe our more liberal brethren want others to be consistent in calling out sin in the church. While the more conservative of the brethren focus on sins they believe liberal brethren are sanctifying. Meaning not counted among the sins pointed out keeps one from the Kingdom. (See 1 Corinthians 6)

 

[redleghunter]

I have to say that gays don’t bother me - but the whole transgender thing is kooky.

I would not say kooky but strange and confusing.

For example, in the military a gay man is still a man meaning he will dress as a man and follow the male grooming and uniform standards. Same for females. That was really and honestly not a difficult transition for the military as I observed before retiring three years ago.

Now for transgender soldiers? Very confusing. A biological male who identifies as a female but has not made any physical changes other than cosmetic, is now allowed to shower with females. What makes it inappropriate in my estimation is even though a biological male identfies as female does not mean they are no longer physically attracted to females. Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner mentioned he/she is still attracted to females.

So you have a physically identifiable male who identifies as a female who still is sexually attracted to females using the same shower/bathroom facilities as females.

 

[redleghunter]

I watched the Evancho fanily special and I must admit that I was not too comfortable with the son changing from a boy to a girl. However, to be fair, I think that we should all ask ourselves, what would we do if we had a son or daughter who felt extremely strong about this matter and acted like a member of the other sex from the time they were very young, say age 4 or 5? Would we tell them that we would disown them or would we support them and love them no matter their decision? Yes, we might tell them that God might not approve of such, but to say that a sex change means that someone is headed for Hell is a bit much, in my view. Only God can make that decision and nothing in Scripture specifically forbids a sex change. It is not the same as homosexuality. Truth be told, it is a messy subject and most of those who undergo the change probably endure many years of psychological hardship.

If they are 4 or 5 years old we teach them the truth. They are either male or female.

4 year olds will tell us they are the amazing Hulk. We have to inform them they are not.

 

[redleghunter]

I do not believe that doctors would be willing to do the surgery until someone is 18.

Surgery perhaps. However parents are signing consent forms to do it earlier. With doctors now doing hormone treatments before puberty to delay puberty.

 

[redleghunter]

God also makes intersexed people (a few decades ago the term was hermaphrodite). God didn't do male and female only. Even if the genesis story says "male and female he created them" it is also true that some are made "male and female".

Not in the beginning. After the fall yes. We are all flawed due to the fall. Some more pronounced than others.

 

[FireDragon76]

The mainline understanding of sin is alot different than merely being against being cold and hypocritical, though hypocrisy is definitely something we don't like. And we do believe in sexual sins, but I think we are post-Kinsey types and we are reluctant to make sex an important part of our preaching on the Law, because we believe that the Church has a history of trivializing more weighty matters.

So much of Christian spirituality is shaped by monastic ideals and Greek stoicism and Platonism, in ways that people do not realize. That isn't all bad but in the modern context we don't see it necessarily as being virtuous to the same degree as in the past, to merely focus on "sexual continence". That doesn't mean we talk about sin less necessarily, we talk about it differently, and sensitive to a cultural context that is more naturally skeptical and disenchanted.

 

[redleghunter]

Where are all the threads about how to talk to our fellow Christians about divorce, greed, not taking care of widows and orphans, casual heterosexual relationships, etc?

Shouldn't we straight people be more concerned about straight people sins?

Good question. Can you link me to the threads where Christians argue in favor of sanctifying those sins?

As far as I have observed not one Christian (save one who advocated pre marital sex and I deabted) on CF or any other site I visit advocated what you listed were not sins.

 

[Zoii]

Sorry, but I need advice and opinions here. What does it say in the bible about transgenderism? I ask this because I have seen many Christians embrace this transgenderism thing, as well as inclusion for LGBTQ people and acceptance. Please do not interpret this is gay bashing or hate, I just feel perplexed because I know that God made humans both man and woman, and that there is no such thing as "cisgender" and such. But now everyone seems to believe that there can be male brains in female bodies and vice versa. If its mental illness, how are we supposed to gracefully dialogue with Christians who seem to think "love is love" and that picking your gender is normal? I don't want to judge at all and say they are not Christians, because I know I suck at being a Christian sometimes. I don't want to make enemies. But I actually get angry seeing people I respect embrace this madness and even tolerate abortion and gay marriage. How can I react? How do I know I am not doing the devil's work by rejecting that behavior?

I think I would call myself liberal though really I just think I have an open mind. I dont see things in black and white. In several posts here its said your born either male or female - thats it and its reinforced in the bible!!! - and this transgender business is just liberal nonsense. Well I dont see things so rigidly. For a start I know that the black and white biblical definition of gender simply isnt true genetically. There is a wide set of dysmorphic gender abnormalities - I list a few now:

Female Genotypes: XX is normal XO Turners Syndrom XXX Triple X syndrome
Male Genotypes: XY is normal XXY Klinefelter syndrome XYY XYY syndrome

and there are others:
Some result in mosaic gender patterns eg unclear genitals or very small penis, yet have breasts and a female slender body. But in these abnormalities there is quite a variation in gender presentation. For some unfortunates though their genitals are unclear, particularly pre-puberty. The result is they may appear as transgender and nominate their chosen sexual identity - and for many that choice isnt obvious.

While these conditions arent common, nor are they rare presenting in 1/1-2000. So to put it in a little context.... Go to a school and theres likely to be one or two kids in that situation.

All this before we even begin to talk about the psychological component. Its unhelpful for the christian community to throw stones at them and to make statements around "sin" or that their behaviour is accepted through liberal nonsense.

I havent responded to the other issues you raised - I thought Id focus on this one point for now.

 

[The Times]

Sorry, but I need advice and opinions here. What does it say in the bible about transgenderism? I ask this because I have seen many Christians embrace this transgenderism thing, as well as inclusion for LGBTQ people and acceptance. Please do not interpret this is gay bashing or hate, I just feel perplexed because I know that God made humans both man and woman, and that there is no such thing as "cisgender" and such. But now everyone seems to believe that there can be male brains in female bodies and vice versa. If its mental illness, how are we supposed to gracefully dialogue with Christians who seem to think "love is love" and that picking your gender is normal? I don't want to judge at all and say they are not Christians, because I know I suck at being a Christian sometimes. I don't want to make enemies. But I actually get angry seeing people I respect embrace this madness and even tolerate abortion and gay marriage. How can I react? How do I know I am not doing the devil's work by rejecting that behavior?

Separate yourself from them. The enemy attacks the image of God and conscipts worldly types, who want friendship with the world into this hate on God and trampling of his Image.

It is theft and it is murder, nothing short of a lie pushed onto society by the Father of Lies Satan.

Time we be separate from the worldly types, least they drag us with them. Take care of yourself and don't given them your time.

The Bible expressly condemns the sexually immoral, because any union outside of what Jesus said is permitted from the beginning of Creation, is a sexually immoral union. Even if the whole world conspired against God, they are going down soon in flames of God's glory.

The separation of the wheat and the tares is growing. Step away from them and let them fall.

 

[redleghunter]

we believe that the Church has a history of trivializing more weighty matters.

I'm glad you mentioned this and was the focus of my inquiry to another poster.

Do you see this as open sin within the church which is ignored. Or supposedly ignored because no one openly confesses such?

For example, at communion each Sunday we present ourselves before Christ and fellow church members as sinners saved by Grace. In my church we have a moment of personal reflection and prayer confessing the sins we committed to God with a heart and mind of repentance.

At that point before Christ we examine ourselves.

Should someone who is in rebellion not recognizing their sin as such partake of the elements?

 

[GingerBeer]

Not in the beginning. After the fall yes. We are all flawed due to the fall. Some more pronounced than others.

Surely the intersexed are not blameworthy.

 

[redleghunter]

Surely the intersexed are not blameworthy.

I think I made that distinction earlier on. And as I said to you some are more pronounced (read challenging) than others.

The formula for "success" I believe is to present the truth in love. There's a reason churches have pastoral care for individuals and family. I don't think anyone here said these matters are easy to deal with. They are not. But we know our Awesome God is above any of our challenges.