Dealing with Liberal Christians

[RC1970]

Sorry, but I need advice and opinions here. What does it say in the bible about transgenderism? I ask this because I have seen many Christians embrace this transgenderism thing, as well as inclusion for LGBTQ people and acceptance. Please do not interpret this is gay bashing or hate, I just feel perplexed because I know that God made humans both man and woman, and that there is no such thing as "cisgender" and such. But now everyone seems to believe that there can be male brains in female bodies and vice versa. If its mental illness, how are we supposed to gracefully dialogue with Christians who seem to think "love is love" and that picking your gender is normal? I don't want to judge at all and say they are not Christians, because I know I suck at being a Christian sometimes. I don't want to make enemies. But I actually get angry seeing people I respect embrace this madness and even tolerate abortion and gay marriage. How can I react? How do I know I am not doing the devil's work by rejecting that behavior?

You have to find the right balance between these two parts of Scripture:

Matthew 7:6 and Matthew 5:14-16

 

[FireDragon76]

Be respectful of how other people view themselves. It's OK for you not to agree with it but respect their autonomy and right to make decisions over their own life. Not every possible acquaintance or friend has to become a sermon opportunity. You aren't called to that. That is the job of their pastor.

Really, it's OK to just be their friend and not make it an issue. Or just avoid them if it makes you so uncomfortable. But you won't have friends for long if you go around preaching to people about how they should live, especially on such a private matter.

 

[DZoolander]

Sorry, but I need advice and opinions here. What does it say in the bible about transgenderism? I ask this because I have seen many Christians embrace this transgenderism thing, as well as inclusion for LGBTQ people and acceptance. Please do not interpret this is gay bashing or hate, I just feel perplexed because I know that God made humans both man and woman, and that there is no such thing as "cisgender" and such. But now everyone seems to believe that there can be male brains in female bodies and vice versa. If its mental illness, how are we supposed to gracefully dialogue with Christians who seem to think "love is love" and that picking your gender is normal? I don't want to judge at all and say they are not Christians, because I know I suck at being a Christian sometimes. I don't want to make enemies. But I actually get angry seeing people I respect embrace this madness and even tolerate abortion and gay marriage. How can I react? How do I know I am not doing the devil's work by rejecting that behavior?

I have to say that gays don’t bother me - but the whole transgender thing is kooky.

 

[Basil the Great]

I have to say that gays don’t bother me - but the whole transgender thing is kooky.

I watched the Evancho fanily special and I must admit that I was not too comfortable with the son changing from a boy to a girl. However, to be fair, I think that we should all ask ourselves, what would we do if we had a son or daughter who felt extremely strong about this matter and acted like a member of the other sex from the time they were very young, say age 4 or 5? Would we tell them that we would disown them or would we support them and love them no matter their decision? Yes, we might tell them that God might not approve of such, but to say that a sex change means that someone is headed for Hell is a bit much, in my view. Only God can make that decision and nothing in Scripture specifically forbids a sex change. It is not the same as homosexuality. Truth be told, it is a messy subject and most of those who undergo the change probably endure many years of psychological hardship.

 

[Lybrah]

I watched the Evancho fanily special and I must admit that I was not too comfortable with the son changing from a boy to a girl. However, to be fair, I think that we should all ask ourselves, what would we do if we had a son or daughter who felt extremely strong about this matter and acted like a member of the other sex from the time they were very young, say age 4 or 5? Would we tell them that we would disown them or would we support them and love them no matter their decision? Yes, we might tell them that God might not approve of such, but to say that a sex change means that someone is headed for Hell is a bit much, in my view. Only God can make that decision and nothing in Scripture specifically forbids a sex change. It is not the same as homosexuality. Truth be told, it is a messy subject and most of those who undergo the change probably endure many years of psychological hardship.

I would never disown any family member for having a sex change. I would try to talk them out of it, and if I were a parent, I would refuse to pay for my kid's transition. People have time to figure out who they are. What happens if a 5 year old undergoes transition and then ten years later regrets it? It's too late. It's not a good thing to do with children. They could wait until they were 18. No one ever said anything about anyone going to hell. The topic of the conversation was how to handle it with other strong Christians who support it.

 

[Lybrah]

Be respectful of how other people view themselves. It's OK for you not to agree with it but respect their autonomy and right to make decisions over their own life. Not every possible acquaintance or friend has to become a sermon opportunity. You aren't called to that. That is the job of their pastor.

Really, it's OK to just be their friend and not make it an issue. Or just avoid them if it makes you so uncomfortable. But you won't have friends for long if you go around preaching to people about how they should live, especially on such a private matter.

The topic of the conversation is dealing with Christians I respect who support it. Christians are supposed to call each other out. I don't preach to strangers on the bus or street corner or anything. It's not my style.

 

[Basil the Great]

I would never disown any family member for having a sex change. I would try to talk them out of it, and if I were a parent, I would refuse to pay for my kid's transition. People have time to figure out who they are. What happens if a 5 year old undergoes transition and then ten years later regrets it? It's too late. It's not a good thing to do with children. They could wait until they were 18. No one ever said anything about anyone going to hell. The topic of the conversation was how to handle it with other strong Christians who support it.

I do not believe that doctors would be willing to do the surgery until someone is 18. They pretty much implied in the tv special that the Evancho son was 18 when he had the surgery. I do understand about not wanting to pay for the surgery. It is hard to refute that stance, especially if one feels strongly about the matter. I would also probably try and talk the child out of it or at least ask him/her to think long and hard before having the surgery, as you are right, it cannot be reversed. I brought up the age 5 figure, as it seems a lot of these kids begin showing signs of acting like a member of the other sex at about that age, ex: a boy playing with dolls, preferring girls' clothes, etc. It is truly a most unusual situation and one that I would not wish on anyone. The Evancho tv special is the first one that I have seen on the subject in quite a few years.

As to how to deal with Christians who feel strongly the other way, I guess just share with them in a loving manner how you feel.

 

[GingerBeer]

I know that God made humans both man and woman

God also makes intersexed people (a few decades ago the term was hermaphrodite). God didn't do male and female only. Even if the genesis story says "male and female he created them" it is also true that some are made "male and female".

 

[Meowzltov]

Sorry, but I need advice and opinions here. What does it say in the bible about transgenderism?

The Bible doesn't say anything negative about identifying internally with the gender opposite one's sex, so we can assume there is no sin in it. If a girl wants to play football or a boy wants to do needlepoint, there is a place for that. However, the Bible does state that it is a sin to cross dress. IOW it is a sin to transition.

 

[JoeP222w]

What does it say in the bible about transgenderism?

First off, transgender is a completely nonsense term. No one transitions from one gender to the other gender. And mutilating the sexual organs in no way changes a person's gender. God made them male or female. There is no changing genders. The Bible does not speak directly of it because it is nonsense.

But the Bible does speak of those who are in rebellion to God, they completely reject the truth of God, because they know that they are unrighteous before God.

Romans 1:18-29 ESV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (22) Claiming to be wise, they became fools, (23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. (24) Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, (25) because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. (26) For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; (27) and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. (28) And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. (29) They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,


Anyone who claims to be a Christian, and promote transgenderism as a righteous act is clearly not reading the Bible and is walking in willful disobedience to what God has spoken, and the judgment of God is upon their heads.

 

[JoeP222w]

But what happens is that I get treated like I said something really mean and rude, and people tell me how bigoted and hateful I am.

Ask them why they are being so bigoted and hateful towards God.

Then I feel bad and question, am I wrong?

Jesus said that the world will hate you if you follow Him. It is better to obey God than man.

 

[hedrick]

What happens if a 5 year old undergoes transition and then ten years later regrets it?

It's generally understood that the issues often resolve themselves between 5 and 18. So transition isn't done with minors.

Those Christians who accept it don't see it any different than dealing with birth defects or other congenital problems. CF doesn't permit arguing that it's acceptable, but it's useful for the OP to understand why Christians might think that it is.

One problem with issues like this is that the polarization makes people not talk to each other. It's all too easy to conclude that people who disagree with you aren't true Christians. You might find it helpful to talk with the Christians you're talking about However Christian Advice isn't the place for it.

It's useful to distinguish between politicized advocates and ordinary Christians. Not all of us think traditional Christians are bigoted, though many of us do think they're unconsciously influenced by the culture in which they grew up. You'll find, however, that where it's allowed, people on both sides can worship and work together.

 

[FireDragon76]

The topic of the conversation is dealing with Christians I respect who support it. Christians are supposed to call each other out. I don't preach to strangers on the bus or street corner or anything. It's not my style.

I think the same things I said applied in that case, I just want to add I don't think Christians necessarily have to call each other out, especially if it could damage important relationships that are otherwise beneficial. The ethics of this is really beyond the scope of Christian Advice, though.

 

[seeking.IAM]

OP asks how to deal with other Christians who support things OP considers to be sin. True, the Bible says Christians are to confront their brethren who have fallen into sin. If OP does that I hope it is done calmly, with sensitivity, and with an absence of malice. Then there is that other thing about the admonition to the disciples that if people didn't listen to them, they were to shake the dust from their sandals and move on. The point is some people will not listen to you, you won't win every argument, and there is a time to move on. Expressing an opinion is one thing; beating a dead horse is another.

Still, I have to say this as I have in many threads on this topic. I continually find it curious that this issue gets so much of some Christians attention. It is like we have decided this is the only sin worth talking about. Where are all the threads about how to talk to our fellow Christians about divorce, greed, not taking care of widows and orphans, casual heterosexual relationships, etc?

Shouldn't we straight people be more concerned about straight people sins?

 

[hedrick]

Although if I say this to non-believers, I'll get laughed out of the room.

Sure, but your question was about Christians. One would hope that Christians who accept the current view on transsexuals would also be more understanding of Christians who haven't accepted that than non-Christians advocates.

 

[DZoolander]

I watched the Evancho fanily special and I must admit that I was not too comfortable with the son changing from a boy to a girl. However, to be fair, I think that we should all ask ourselves, what would we do if we had a son or daughter who felt extremely strong about this matter and acted like a member of the other sex from the time they were very young, say age 4 or 5? Would we tell them that we would disown them or would we support them and love them no matter their decision? Yes, we might tell them that God might not approve of such, but to say that a sex change means that someone is headed for Hell is a bit much, in my view. Only God can make that decision and nothing in Scripture specifically forbids a sex change. It is not the same as homosexuality. Truth be told, it is a messy subject and most of those who undergo the change probably endure many years of psychological hardship.

First, no, I wouldn't disown a child of mine for that (or pretty much any other) reason.

Now that's out of the way...the reason why I don't have a problem with gays but trans seems "kooky" to me is that I can at least understand a gay person. I love my wife, he loves his partner. It's the same feeling, albeit directed differently. Quote me all the bible passages ya want - they may or may not apply. But on a conceptual level, sin or not, I at least can grasp what they're going through.

Also, every gay person I've ever known simply wanted to be left alone and not proselytized to. I know there's all this malarkey out there about "the gay agenda" - but the "gay agenda" basically boils down to "hey, don't give me crap for being gay, let me have the same legal rights you have, and don't try to levy the state against me". That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Evangelicals may whine about how their "freedom of speech" has been curtailed - but that really boils down to "my freedom to be a jerk to you over your lifestyle and tell you how you're damned". If those are their goals - and so far as I can tell they are - I have no beef with them.

Trans - I don't feel the same way. I don't understand trans. I can't grasp their experience. Why? Because I give ZERO thought to my sex. And by zero, I mean absolutely zero. If someone were to ask me "What's it like being a guy?" I would tell them I have no clue. I don't know what it's like to be anything other than myself. I don't know if how I experience the world is more similar to how some other dude experiences the world on a basic level than a woman. Sure - we may have different things HAPPEN to us as a consequence of our sex - but that's different than what it feels like to actually experience things.

My belief has always been that while circumstances may differ, the way things actually feel as a man or a woman aren't likely all that different. Like if you were to switch me into my wife's body for a few days, I don't think there would be any profound "Hey, this is what being a woman feels like, and it's SOOO much different."

So to that end - I don't even understand where someone is coming from when they say "I feel like something I'm not" What does that even mean? And since you have no basis for comparison between the two, how do you judge that?

To me it seems like a mental illness. I wouldn't ostracize a family member for being schizophrenic. I wouldn't deride them for it. I would try to work with it as best I could. Same thing with being trans. But it doesn't mean that I think it's sane, or that I'm going to suddenly innately BELIEVE that there are all these different genders walking around.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Sorry, but I need advice and opinions here. What does it say in the bible about transgenderism? I ask this because I have seen many Christians embrace this transgenderism thing, as well as inclusion for LGBTQ people and acceptance. Please do not interpret this is gay bashing or hate, I just feel perplexed because I know that God made humans both man and woman, and that there is no such thing as "cisgender" and such. But now everyone seems to believe that there can be male brains in female bodies and vice versa. If its mental illness, how are we supposed to gracefully dialogue with Christians who seem to think "love is love" and that picking your gender is normal? I don't want to judge at all and say they are not Christians, because I know I suck at being a Christian sometimes. I don't want to make enemies. But I actually get angry seeing people I respect embrace this madness and even tolerate abortion and gay marriage. How can I react? How do I know I am not doing the devil's work by rejecting that behavior?

I could explain it from scriptures, but liberals I've met don't seem to use scripture or want to discuss things from the point of view of scripture. There are exceptions but scriptures and liberal church just don't mix unless you're the pastor usually. (at least in my experience of liberal churches)
.
So understanding it from a liberal perspective, begin from someone's actual experience and make that the foundation for discussion. Don't objectify a person based on biblical criteria and just let a person be a person, this is how I understand the liberal perspective. I'm more of a moderate.

 

[DZoolander]

I could explain it from scriptures, but liberals I've met don't seem to use scripture or want to discuss things from the point of view of scripture. There are exceptions but scriptures and liberal church just don't mix unless you're the pastor usually. (at least in my experience of liberal churches)
.
So understanding it from a liberal perspective, begin from someone's actual experience and make that the foundation for discussion. Don't objectify a person based on biblical criteria and just let a person be a person, this is how I understand the liberal perspective. I'm more of a moderate.

I'd summarize it more like "Hey, mind your own business" lol

 

[hedrick]

I could explain it from scriptures, but liberals I've met don't seem to use scripture or want to discuss things from the point of view of scripture. There are exceptions but scriptures and liberal church just don't mix unless you're the pastor usually. (at least in my experience of liberal churches)

This is a stereotype. The question is how Scripture is used. I use it as a basis for understanding Jesus and his mission. Indeed I'd claim that on those issues liberal theology is more Biblical than conservative theology. I'm less likely to use it to give answers to questions that weren't being asked in the first century.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This is a stereotype. The question is how Scripture is used. I use it as a basis for understanding Jesus and his mission. Indeed I'd claim that on those issues liberal theology is more Biblical than conservative theology. I'm less likely to use it to give answers to questions that weren't being asked in the first century.

It's actually my experience. I was surprised the liberal churches I've participated in were actually reinforcing this stereotype.

When I said there are exceptions, I had you in mind, because I've heard you say you're a Liberal Christian and have seen you use scripture.