David Bentley Hart on Hell

[hedrick]

"Some of the fathers preached hellfire rhetorically at Christians to make a moral point but in their hymns are unabashedly universalist. Talk about irrefutable... it’s the hymnody that leads the way and is our primary theology: “Let Every Mortal Leap for Joy”: Apocatastatic Hymnody in Orthodox Worship" - Brad Jersak

At times I’ve wondered if that’s what is going on in Paul.

 

[Saint Steven]

At times I’ve wondered if that’s what is going on in Paul.

Here's a reference. Did you have others in mind?

1 Corinthians 14:26 NIV
What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

 

[hedrick]

Here's a reference. Did you have others in mind?

1 Corinthians 14:26 NIV
What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

What I meant was that Paul’s clearest reference to some not being redeemed are moral exhortation. His real theology seems consistently universalist. At least, in the undisputed letters.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *
Edited. Just did a quick search. According to
How to Become Orthodox
"The Orthodox Church has no formal catechism, a single body of work that details the specifics of its faith. This is one difference between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, who does have a specific catechism."
This fits in with what DBH says, that the EO church remains silent on the matter of universalism.

I wonder why that is? Don't the native Greek speaking leaders of the EO church know that UR is all over the NT?

 

[Der Alte]

What I meant was that Paul’s clearest reference to some not being redeemed are moral exhortation. His real theology seems consistently universalist. At least, in the undisputed letters.

For example? The answer my friend is blowing in the wind. The answer is blowing in the wind.
Twenty two categories of unrighteous people who, according to Paul, have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

 

[hedrick]

For example? The answer my friend is blowing in the wind. The answer is blowing in the wind.
Twenty two categories of unrighteous people who, according to Paul, have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Your citations confirm my statement. They are all moral exhortations.

 

[Der Alte]

Your citations confirm my statement. They are all moral exhortations.

I am puzzled. How does Paul saying 22 categories of people have no inheritance in the kingdom of God equal "His [Paul] real theology seems consistently universalist?"

 

[ozso]

Your citations confirm my statement. They are all moral exhortations.

Of course what isn't addressed, much less admitted to, is that no one can say they don't commit at least one of those citations, so that would mean no one will inherit the kingdom of God. In other words it seems if one wants to read it as literal exclusions, then Paul was excluding everyone, including himself.

 

[Der Alte]

Of course what isn't addressed, much less admitted to, is that no one can say they haven't committed at least one of those citations, so that would mean no one will inherit the kingdom of God. In other words it seems if one wants to read it as literal exclusions, then Paul was excluding everyone, including himself.

Another ridiculous obtuse comment. Was Paul lying, in
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17?
Was Jesus lying when He said,

John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Acts 26:18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.​

 

[JulieB67]

Bring US, who are alive, NOT the dead.

It states that Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison,

Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison

I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Just who do you think Christ was preaching to? I'm curious. If you mentioned it, I missed it.

 

[hedrick]

Of course what isn't addressed, much less admitted to, is that no one can say they don't commit at least one of those citations, so that would mean no one will inherit the kingdom of God. In other words it seems if one wants to read it as literal exclusions, then Paul was excluding everyone, including himself.

Exactly. That's the problem with these quotes. They are not, as in some discussions, identifying some particularly mortal sins. Surely there's something on the list for everyone.

Paul has this concept that every person is of flesh and spirit, and they are at war. It is not the flesh, with which he identifies these sins, that will inherit eternal life.

 

[hedrick]

FYI, my interim conclusions are, somewhat tentatively:

• Paul is universalist
• Matthew probably believed in ECT. However Hart points to substantial (though not universal) patristic understanding of eternal punishment as being temporary.
• John probably believed in conditional immortality, i.e. that only through faith in Christ could one have eternal life. Judgement in John seems to be not having eternal life. However there are universalist statements there, too.
• Mark and Luke report far fewer references to judgement than Matthew and use a greater variety of images. I think they can reasonably be interpreted as talking about accountability for his own followers rather than eternal punishment for others. There are suggestions that might be read as almost universalism, or conditional immortality.

Unifying these is not easy, even if it's possible. But taking the most extreme views and forcing the others to conform isn't an approach I accept. I think it’s just as easy to make universalism controlling and interpret everything within that framework. But I’m not quite convinced.

I find Hart's exegeses' pretty good, but I'm not yet fully convinced. He understands judgement as being in two phases, with immediate separation of sheep and goats but with God triumphing in the end.

 

[ozso]

Exactly. That's the problem with these quotes. They are not, as in some discussions, identifying some particularly mortal sins. Surely there's something on the list for everyone.

Paul has this concept that every person is of flesh and spirit, and they are at war. It is not the flesh, with which he identifies these sins, that will inherit eternal life.

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:25-26

 

[Der Alte]

Deleted

 

[Der Alte]

It states that Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison,
Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison
I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
Just who do you think Christ was preaching to? I'm curious. If you mentioned it, I missed it.

I have answered this before, you didn't like my answer then you won't like it now.
"spirits in prison?" "hell/the grave" is never called "prison" and "prison" is never called "hell/the grave" in the Bible, anywhere.
If Jesus' purpose was salvation of the dead. I have never read any scripture OT/NT which mentions that any dead were/would be saved from "hell/the grave." The only people mentioned as being saved in 1 Pet 3:20 were Noah and his family but they were not dead when they were saved, they were very much alive.

Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

Jesus' earthly mission was "to preach the gospel to the poor; ... to heal the brokenhearted, deliverance to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, liberate the bruised."
.....There ain't no poor; brokenhearted, captives, blind or bruised in "hell/the grave." Only individual dead corpses.
The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoner of war." Maybe Revelation 13:7.

 

[Der Alte]

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:25-26

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

 

[Andrewn]

I wonder why that is? Don't the native Greek speaking leaders of the EO church know that UR is all over the NT?

Many times in your messages, you state that leaders of the EO church can understand the NT better than anyone else. So, here is a quotation from the Orthodox Catechism showing what they believe about Christ's Harrowing the Hell:

"However, both the New Testament and Orthodox patristic tradition suggest that all people will appear [in the Last Judgment] with some experience of an encounter with Christ and His message, including those who did not meet Him in their earthly life. In particular, St Peter speaks of Christ’s descent into Hell and His preaching there to those sinners who were drowned in the waters of the Flood: ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you... through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...’ (1 Pet.3:18-21)"

Remember, these are not my words but a direct quotation from the Orthodox Catechism. Do you believe their interpretation or stick with the Baptist's interpretation?

An Online Orthodox Catechism » Catechism » OrthodoxEurope.org

There ain't no poor; brokenhearted, captives, blind or bruised in "hell/the grave." Only individual dead corpses.

I assume by "hell" you mean Hades / Sheol. Is it your belief that Hades / Sheol contains dead corpses? Is this what the Lord teaches in Rich and Lazarus and in many other places?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? I definitely believe that Hebrew "olam" and Greek "aionios" mean "eternal.""everlasting,""for ever."

I agree with that statement.

 

[ozso]

Many times in your messages, you state that leaders of the EO church can understand the NT better than anyone else. So, here is a quotation from the Orthodox Catechism showing what they believe about Christ's Harrowing the Hell:

"However, both the New Testament and Orthodox patristic tradition suggest that all people will appear [in the Last Judgment] with some experience of an encounter with Christ and His message, including those who did not meet Him in their earthly life. In particular, St Peter speaks of Christ’s descent into Hell and His preaching there to those sinners who were drowned in the waters of the Flood: ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you... through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...’ (1 Pet.3:18-21)"

Remember, these are not my words but a direct quotation from the Orthodox Catechism. Do you believe their interpretation or stick with the Baptist's interpretation?

An Online Orthodox Catechism » Catechism » OrthodoxEurope.org


I assume by "hell" you mean Hades / Sheol. Is it your belief that Hades / Sheol contains dead corpses? Is this what the Lord teaches in Rich and Lazarus and in many other places?

I think that starts and ends with the 2011 EO Bible, because the translation is similar to other favored translations. Of course how the EO read and understand it, differs from that of a Protestant. I know that from listening to EO clergy. Their whole view of salvation differs, as explained here and here. As for the Harrowing of Hell, that's explained by an EO priest here.

 

[Andrewn]

I think that starts and ends with the 2011 EO Bible, because the translation is similar to other favored translations. Of course how the EO read and understand it, differs from that of a Protestant. I know that from listening to EO clergy. Their whole view of salvation differs, as explained here and here. As for the Harrowing of Hell, that's explained by an EO priest here.

I just bought a book about Harrowing the Hell titled "Christ the conquerer of Hell" by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev. Looking forward to reading it.