Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Certainly if their punishment results in no rehabilitation I suppose it must continue.And why would their punishment end if the entire time their rebellion against God continues?
This is definitely a valid alternative - that our post-mortem state somehow partakes in the eternal nature not merely "sempiternal" duration.My view of eternal damnation is quite simple. In the spirit realm, time doesn't exist.
So anything there is "eternal." So the scripture is correct. But the framework for understanding it is not common.
Verses always taken out-of-context vainly trying to prop up universal reconciliation.The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
For it is written: “ As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” Romans 14:11
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11
There is an old adage "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.Certainly if their punishment results in no rehabilitation I suppose it must continue.
The question may be whether eventually even the most hardened sinner must repent or not.
Your icon looks modern, is it?Here's an Orthodox icon of the Resurrection with Jesus trampling the gates of hell, pulling Adam and Eve out and broken locks and hades bound at his feet.
Jesus undid the original sin of Adam. He conquered sin and hades and death. He undid it all. That was the whole point of His crucifixion and resurrection.
Clare73 said:Perhaps you should review Jesus' parable in Lk 16:19-31, regarding what was believed in Israel regarding fire after death.
And this bears on Jesus' presentation of the fire of Hades, how?Oh, I have!
A final appeal is made in this section on final impenitence to the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.
“For in death there is no one that is mindful of Thee. He knows too that now is the time for turning unto God: for when this life shall have passed away, there remaineth but a retribution of our deserts. “But in hell who shall confess to Thee?” That rich man, of whom the Lord speaks, who saw Lazarus in rest, but bewailed himself in torments, confessed in hell, yea so as to wish even to have his brethren warned, that they might keep themselves from sin, because of the punishment which is not believed to be in hell. Although therefore to no purpose, yet he confessed that those torments had deservedly lighted upon him; since he even wished his brethren to be instructed, lest they should fall into the same.” (Augustine’s Commentary on the Psalms 6:6).
Note again Augustine’s Roman courtroom thinking in which he declares that after death God gets His retribution. I cannot help but think that the cultural milieu in which Augustine moved and thought deeply influenced his ideas about God just as much as his Platonic thinking.
Notice what Augustine missed – the Rich Man had already begun to repent in his torment because he, who formerly was unconcerned about others, now begs to have his brothers warned. This is a metanoia, a change of mind, in short – repentance. Augustine, and commentators even to this day, missed this.
Since Matthew is the Gospel to the Jews in which Christ presents Himself to them as the expected Messiah, I think it appropriate to take the symbols in the parable and apply them to national Israel in the Lukian parable.
How was national Israel rich? Through her special relationship with God as the chosen people. Israel had the riches of God’s presence and leading, the Temple, and the relationship they had. The priests were clothed in purple and fine linen. I believe upon hearing these words, the priestly class listening to Christ would have begun to identify with it and take closer notice.
If national Israel was indeed the rich man who fared sumptuously every day, who was the beggar? I believe it was the Gentile nations who had none of the riches of a relationship with God. No temple, no law of God, no prophets, and no true worship. In terms of the true riches, they were bankrupt. The crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table could be the incidental hearing of the Jewish scriptures or seeing the worship in the Temple from the Outer Court of the Gentiles. These were crumbs, but not the full meal which the Jews enjoyed.
In verse 22 both men die. When we think of death, it is normal to think of the cessation of life in the human body. But in Scripture, death connotes something besides that. In Genesis 3 we see Adam and Eve die, but they are still alive. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father says “For this my son was dead, and is alive again...” In neither case do we see the cessation of physical life. What we see is separation, Adam and Eve from Paradise, the son from his father’s presence. In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, both men are separated from the condition in which they exist and find themselves in a new condition. Thus they “die.”
The rich man died to his existence and became poor. He was without all the luxuries and benefits which he had previously enjoyed, and this was a torment to him. This is a picture of Judaism, which no longer enjoys the special covenant relationship with God it once had. National Israel is no longer God’s special people. In the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, national Israel is cast out of the vineyard (the Kingdom of God) and replaced. These two parables describe the same event. National Israel’s covenant with God ended in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. They are replaced by the Church, the nation of the Gentiles. Those who were once beggars for crumbs from God’s table now feast upon the riches of Liturgy, Sacraments, and the Word of God.
It is interesting to see how the beggar was brought to Abraham’s bosom. He was carried by angels. The word angel means “messenger.” Who were the messengers who brought the Gentile nations out of their spiritual poverty and into God’s rich and abundant mercy? The Apostles. They brought the message of the Gospel, the Good News of the Resurrection and God’s favor, to the ends of the known world, bringing with them the invitation to enter into the covenant which began with Abraham. St. Paul says “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.” Abraham’s bosom is where the covenant father, Abraham, holds his children close to him in a special relationship.
On the other hand, in terms of their covenant with God being destroyed, national Israel was buried in AD 70 when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman armies of Titus and the Temple razed to the ground. This burial was confirmed by later attempts to rebuild the Temple being met with disaster and death.
Yes. And the reality is that Jesus came to national Israel and addressed them, not us. He offered Himself to them as Messiah, as their divine Bridegroom, but when they continually turned Him down, He turned to warning them of the impending destruction of Jerusalem and the end of national Israel as His covenant people. THAT is the context of the Gospels, not some hellist fantasy cooked up by Roman Catholic apologists to scare the hell out of people and make them obey the pope.
"Salted with fire" refers to the suffering required in dealing radically with one's sin in vv.43, 45, 47--cut it off, pluck it out--to avoid the fire of hell (vv.43, 45, 47), not in order to enter it.No worries. Jesus said everyone is going to "hell".
Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.
.[/QUOTE] Take a stick of stovewood, toss it into the fire, amd see how long it lasts. The fireplace will be around for significantly longer.We're still left with Jesus' own use of Gehenna (the perpetually burning city dump south of Jerusalem) in Matthew 5:22, 18:8, 9, 25:41; Mark 9:43, 48; Luke 12:5, where the fire is not quenched and never goes out.
A question that,IMO, few address squarely; it has to be dodged with theological circumlocution.God's sovereign Will is clear: that all men come to salvation in Him. Will the Will of God not prevail?
See, that's what comes of plain thinking and plain speaking. Either God wants to but can't, or can but won't. I reject "can't" because is God is God, and I believe that any sentence that contains the phrase "God can't..." is necessarily idiotic. To say that God wants something but refuses to do it is little less ridiculous, but not by much. That He is able to do anything He chooses is implicit. You might get away with "He wants A but won't get it because He wants B more than He wants A, but He can't have them both" but not without the "God can't" which makes nonsense of any statement that contains it.The Calvinists assert that God is able to save all, but chooses not to. The Arminians counter that He would like to save all, but cannot.
I can't see any logic that takes us anywhere else.There is a third position, that God is both WILLING and ABLE to save all.
Mary never sinned nor did she have any other children. You are misinterpreting the Bible, remember the Bible was not originally written in English.Jesus didn't remotely honor Mary as the Orthodox and RCC do. Like us, she was a sinner in need of Christ's salvation, and it is ridiculous to say she never gave birth to other children as the Bible says she did, or that she ascended to heaven. Did she never go to the bathroom either?
Wages of sin is what? Death. What can God do to both body and soul in hell? Destroy. The primary error is the belief that humans are intrinsically immortal beings who will end up spending our eternal lives either under perpetual torture or in perpetual bliss. I see nothing in to suggest that we all live forever no matter what. In fact, Scripture says precisely the opposite - the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Plain meanings. Sometimes Scripture simply means what it says, much as that may not suit a lot of people.Don't forget that there are a couple of texts that lean toward annihilation...
Fair play. I have my personal opinions, also worth the price charged, of those who think that He Who said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" is also a merciless implacable torturer.I think personally that you cannot call yourself a Christian if you do not believe in hell as a place of eternal damnation.
Yep "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Note that our Lord said "who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". Now you'll certainly be quick to 'splain to me that "destroy" there doesn't really mean "destroy", while I will reply just as rapidly with "that's what He said, though, now isn't it?" I don't generally play the "what that really means" game.Jesus told us about hell.
Careful with that stick. You're going to have to change what our Lord said about God destroying body and soul in hell" to make it fit your doctrine. I'm content to leave it as He said it. Who's calling whom a liar then?To doubt that Jesus was telling us the truth is to call Jesus a liar
Many are the same people who are regularly visited by spacemen and who God told that Trump would win in 2020. Not the folks I'd willingly accept a personal check from.There are far too many testimonies of people visibly disturbed by being shown in the spirit hell itself and they all describe what is in other Biblically related books about hell.
And?Satan is real. Demons are real.
And I reckon I'll draw a curtain of charity across the rest of this silliness.In the third realm of heaven is paradise and sheol separated by a chasm called 'Styx'. You do not have to believe it.
FWIW, the first book known to have been printed on a press using moveable type was "Jikli", printed in Goryeo (Korea) in 1377. Herr Gutenberg didn't get his rig up and running until over 70 years later.This book was first printed in the Latin language in 1455 at the Gutenberg Printing Press, invented by Johannes Gutenberg and is situated in Mainz, Germany.
"Him who is able to destroy..." What God created He can certainly destroy but not one single verse says that God has or will ever destroy a single soul in Hell.. . . Yep "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Note that our Lord said "who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". Now you'll certainly be quick to 'splain to me that "destroy" there doesn't really mean "destroy", while I will reply just as rapidly with "that's what He said, though, now isn't it?" I don't generally play the "what that really means" game. . . .
* * *
난 몰랐어.FWIW, the first book known to have been printed on a press using moveable type was "Jikli", printed in Goryeo (Korea) in 1377. Herr Gutenberg didn't get his rig up and running until over 70 years later.
They are ruined, not annihilated."Him who is able to destroy..." What God created He can certainly destroy but not one single verse says that God has or will ever destroy a single soul in Hell.
난 몰랐어.
Certainly if their punishment results in no rehabilitation I suppose it must continue.
Fair play. I have my personal opinions, also worth the price charged, of those who think that He Who said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" is also a merciless implacable torturer.
Yep "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Note that our Lord said "who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". Now you'll certainly be quick to 'splain to me that "destroy" there doesn't really mean "destroy", while I will reply just as rapidly with "that's what He said, though, now isn't it?" I don't generally play the "what that really means" game.
Careful with that stick. You're going to have to change what our Lord said about God destroying body and soul in hell" to make it fit your doctrine. I'm content to leave it as He said it. Who's calling whom a liar then?
Wages of sin is what? Death. What can God do to both body and soul in hell? Destroy. The primary error is the belief that humans are intrinsically immortal beings who will end up spending our eternal lives either under perpetual torture or in perpetual bliss. I see nothing in to suggest that we all live forever no matter what. In fact, Scripture says precisely the opposite - the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Plain meanings. Sometimes Scripture simply means what it says, much as that may not suit a lot of people.
Here is this world the recidivism rate for prisons is 83+% will the rate sincerely be any different in eternity?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?