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Currently the Damnationism heresy is the dominant view in the church. What to do... what to do... ???So what? At one point the Arian heresy was the dominant view in the church.
Currently the Damnationism heresy is the dominant view in the church. What to do... what to do... ???
No worries. Jesus said everyone is going to "hell".Hitler was baptized as an infant, is he in heaven?
Do you believe that the elect were predestined to eternal life?Believe it, it was Jesus' view also.
Evidence, documentation, substantiation?So what? At one point the Arian heresy was the dominant view in the church.
Hardly. The Bible itself says, (and I didn't find this by putting my tenets first, Bible second), "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."Nonsense. Do you know where that thinking comes from? It is Medieval feudalism in which the idea was brought forth that the importance of a king made a crime against that king of landowner more grievous than if committed against a fellow serf.
Furthermore, in hellist thinking, all sins deserve eternal torment, which eliminates the gradiation of sins and the corresponding punishment for them. All sins are not equal, therefore the consequence for them cannot be the same in a proper establishment of justice.
Nevertheless, I do not say that all sins are of the same severity. This is somewhat akin to the misunderstanding of the Reformed TULIP's "Total Depravity". Total Depravity does not mean that every person is as bad as they would be but for God's restraint of evil. It only means that everything a person does is sinful. This too, then: The fact that a person who transgresses the law in one regard is guilty of all, does not mean that all sins, infinite though each on be, are equal in severity. Besides even that, God looks on the heart to judge the deeds. Every lie, for eg, is not equal in severity. God looks on the heart to judge each one. Yet every lie is infinite, being committed again the infinite God.
People who take joy in the suffering of others are sadists. People who take joy in the suffering of the wicked do not have the heart of Christ.
I would do some soul-searching if I were you.
* * *
Was the punishment of the entire world by a flood proportionate to any sin that some committed. Was the punishment of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain by fire proportionate any sins that only some committed?Light of the East said:Which goes against the Bible. Apparently Calvin missed the verses which speak about men like Abel and Noah being righteous. There were also Zacharias and Elizabeth who were righteous. People who are sinful cannot be said to be righteous - or did I miss something somewhere?
We do agree however, that the consequence for sin is in proportion to the deed(s) done, which means that there is no such thing as an eternal hell because there is no sin which is proportional to eternal punishment in hell.
It is RIGHT to rejoice in the Victory of Christ over his enemies, without reference to the suffering that they must endure.
It is also satisfying to see justice done.
There are many references to NOT gloating etc. over the fall of the wicked, and certainly not over their suffering --but that is not what I am talking about.
"...all the men of Judah and Jerusalem returned joyfully to Jerusalem, for the LORD had given them cause to rejoice over their enemies."
"When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; they shout for joy when the wicked die"
"He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.
Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury...."
Would it be fair to suggest you do as much Bible reading as I do soul searching?
It is not their suffering that brings joy. It is God's victory that brings joy. There is, of course a huge satisfaction in seeing justice done, too. But to the point of my rejoicing is not the suffering.I don't think you mean that you find joy in the suffering of those in hell, and yet that is an appropriate conclusion, isn't it?
Not sure if you are understanding. I'm not talking about the destruction of the flesh, but of the very self, the soul, that is now completely apart from God, possessing of no redeeming value. A horror.Perhaps hell removes the husk and leaves what God created. Does God create just to destroy? Is sin, or the human will, so powerful that God can do nothing with his own creation? I'm not so sure.
is not their suffering that brings joy. It is God's victory that brings joy. There is, of course a huge satisfaction in seeing justice done, too. But to the point of my rejoicing is not the suffering.
Don't hold Calvin hostage to my words. I see I neglected to differentiate between the regenerated soul and the lost. Let me restate: The heart of the fallen does only wickedness. The mother of a child in the wilds of the Amazon, who has never heard the Gospel, may still love her child and care for her family selflessly, but she is still in rebellion to God in everything she does.Which goes against the Bible. Apparently Calvin missed the verses which speak about men like Abel and Noah being righteous. There were also Zacharias and Elizabeth who were righteous. People who are sinful cannot be said to be righteous - or did I miss something somewhere?
We do agree however, that the consequence for sin is in proportion to the deed(s) done, which means that there is no such thing as an eternal hell because there is no sin which is proportional to eternal punishment in hell.
Okay, I don't want to misrepresent what you were saying.
We will rejoice in heaven because justice was averted by mercy through Christ's work, right? If God treated us with justice we would perish, or be in hell. So there is joy in seeing God's mercy and joy in seeing God's justice? That doesn't sound right. I understand joy in seeing God's mercy. But in seeing some not receive that same mercy would not bring joy. It would be heartbreaking, devastating.
Like I told one other, "Don't hold Calvin hostage to my words." I neglected to diffentiate between the lost and the redeemed in what I said about the enemies of God, and total depravity. Nevertheless, my use of the Doctrine of Total Depravity was by way of parallel about theWhich goes against the Bible. Apparently Calvin missed the verses which speak about men like Abel and Noah being righteous. There were also Zacharias and Elizabeth who were righteous. People who are sinful cannot be said to be righteous - or did I miss something somewhere?
You seem to take everything I say to be in opposition to the many many places where we are told to be compassionate etc concerning our enemies. I am not opposing that. I am saying there is more than just that going on here.Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
The spirit they were of was the same spirit as the Old Testament verses you quote. The same spirit that Jesus rebuked in Matthew when He told them to love their enemies and do good to those who abused them. You appear to not understand that the Jews were not exactly on target with their thinking in all situations. Because they rejoiced in their victory does not mean that this was something God commanded them to do. Or have you forgotten that it is said that the Lord does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked?
We're still left with Jesus' own use of Gehenna (the perpetually burning city dump south of Jerusalem) in Matthew 5:22, 18:8, 9, 25:41; Mark 9:43, 48; Luke 12:5, where the fire is not quenched and never goes out.
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QUOTE="Lukaris,
Are you saying I should agree with Hart on universalism? I thought the Orthodox Church teaches the final judgment from Matthew 25:31-46 straight forward? We just had final judgment Sunday on March 7th in preparation for Lent. My Orthodox Study Bible does not teach universalism in its notes on the final judgment. Surely I do not believe I automatically get to go to heaven over anyone and I could go to hell. Am I reading St. Gregory of Sinai wrong when he stated:
No, we are saying that you should agree with the following: God is love and love would never do what Infernalists say God does to His children, even those who are dreadfully sick with sin. That alone should close the argument once and for all, but unfortunately, 1,500 years of pounding the hell message has made it seem like truth.
Secondly, Matthew 23-25 is about the destruction of Jersualem, not the end of the world. This puts a whole different light on the understanding of what Jesus is warning about. It is not the end of the world. There is no place in the chapters where you see Jesus do some sort of quantum jump from the destruction of the Temple to a time 2,000 years later.
Then there is the problem of mistranslation of the Greek. It is a problem throughout the Bible as the translators were Latins who did not understand Greek. Which leads me to the next question: has St. Gregory be translated correctly? I did some Google research and found that the English translations of some of the Fathers who appear to support eternal hell are mistranslations of the Greek. Of course, our English language has the Latin as its foundation. So we are back to the Latins mistranslating the Greek.
Chastisements differ, as do rewards of the righteous. Chastisements are inflicted in hell, in what Scripture describes as ‘a dark and gloomy land, a land of eternal darkness’ ( Job 10:21-22, Septuagint)
Notice that this says chastisements, which is exactly what the Universalists teach.
where sinners dwell before the judgment and whither they return after judgment is given.
Where do you find this in Scripture? This is a theologoumenon, not Scripture. The Scriptures show us that there is one judgment, after which the righteous enter union with Christ and the wicked enter chastening. It's in Revelation.
For can the phrases, “Let sinners be returned to hell’ (Psalms 9:17 Septuagint) and ‘death will rule over them’ ( Psalms 49:14, Septuagint) refer to anything other than the final judgment visited upon sinners and their eternal condemnation?”
This is Romish madness. Of all people, you as an Orthodox believer should know the difference between the law/punishment mindset of Rome and the medicinal/healing understanding of the East. Think about the time of year you are about to enter into. What do we sing at Pascha?
"Christ is risen from the dead, by death he trampled death"
Oh, no....wait. He didn't really trample death, did He? In fact, God keeps death going forever by creating a state of separation from Him called "eternal hell" into which He plunges billions of souls and keeps them in the state of death forever.
And you call that "trampling death????"
Not me, brother!
I will do some checking on the St. Gregory quote, but I bet you good money it is also a mistranslation. Thank the Roman Catholic Church for doing that.
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