Date of Christ's Crucifixation

Humble Penny · Jan 26, 2022

Filippus said:
I simply placed it at the end of King Davids 40th year and it works out.
Hope this helps.
Shalom
View attachment 311661

I placed the 4th Year of Solomon at the end of king David's reign as well and created a chart of all the kings and queens of Israel and Judah:

Tables For The Judges, Kings And Queens Of Israel

I found from the actual data given in Scripture that there are 517 Years from Saul to the Babylonian Captivity; and from the 80th Year of Moses to the 4th Year of Solomon to be 597 Years 6 Months. The 480 Years mentioned in 1 Kings 6:1 is explained by Eusebius in his Chronicon that the ancient rabbis during his day meshed the oppresive years of the enemies over Israel with their judges.

How the rabbis justified this when the narrative is clear that the Israelites were oppressed and then had a particular judge end their oppression...I don't know lol. Otherwise that this would be useful information for everyones studies to reckon the years with even more scrutiny.

Humble Penny · Jan 26, 2022

Isaac Aldermann said:
Video Summary

Augustus Caesar's death may be misdated by three years.

The only solar eclipse to be seen by the Roman Empire would have occurred February 15th, 0017 AD. It was a 'hybrid' eclipse.

Due to an error in the Olympiad Calendar, Augustus reign may have been calculated one year to early. Shifting Nov. 27th, 43 BC to Nov. 27th, 42 BC. Adding Augustus' reign of 57 years, 6 months, and 2 days give a death date of May 25th, 0017 AD

February 15th, 0017 AD + 100 days = May 25th, 0017AD

If this is all correct then a 26/27 starting point for the ministries of John and Jesus Christ would be void--it would be too early. We would still be looking at a 14 AD 'accession' date for Tiberius: 14 + 15 = 29. But 14 AD would be while he was still co-regent.

Or we're looking at a 17 AD accession date--when he was sole ruler; 17 + 15 = 32/33 AD for the beginning of John and Christ's ministry.

A 32/33 date would push the crucifixion to 34 AD; or 36 AD if one holds to the traditional 3.5 year ministry theory.

I'm still on the bunny trail, but would like everyone's input on the research done by 'The Opened Scroll Ministry'. If you have time to watch the video, I'd appreciate the feedback!

Currently watching the video you shared. It's a bit painful to listen to his reasoning, but for the sake of being objective I'm trodding through lol! Thankfully one does not need the knowledge of astronomy or mathematics to perform the work of a chronologist or historian. It is a common theme among the historical records that you don't hear of astonomical tables being consulted to gather the information sought for by historians in the official government archives.

That said I did notice a glaring error in his math from the start:

1st Year of Augustus to 57th Year
-42 BC + 42 Years = 0 BC/1 AD
1 AD + 15 Years = 15 AD

...to be sure I wasn't hallucinating...

15 AD - 57 Years = -42 BC
15 Years - 57 Years = -42 Years
15 - 57 = -42

How he got to 17 AD is puzzling to me...and this is just him failing with basic arithmetic...

Do I believe astronomy is useless? Far from it, I believe it is very useful. That said it is not for the average man as it is a highly advanced scientific discipline which requires a thorough and accurate picture of the heavens, and a deep knowledge of the cycles of the Sun, Moon and stars. There's a reason why you will not hear historians commonly talking about astronomical phenomena in their narratives unless something out of the normal occured in a particular event.

Humble Penny · Jan 26, 2022

@Isaac Aldermann To add some more food for thought in pinning down the birth of Christ let's take a look at the basic information we know about king Herod. We know from our historical sources that he ruled for 37 Years, and from Matthew 2 that Herod killed all male children 2 Years old and under. Why would Herod choose such a specific age range unless it was to be understood that the Star which appeared in heaven to guide the magi to Christ appeared two years ago at the birth of Yeshua?

But so we don't remain stuck in mere speculation let's perform some basic calculations assuming that the Massacre of the Innocents occured in the 2nd Year of our Lord as the narrative of Matthew would indicate, being the 35th Year of Herod and the 44th Year of Augustus:

2nd Year of Christ to 1st Year of Herod
2 AD - 35 Years = -33 BC

44th Year of Augusts to 1st Year of Herod
44 Years - 35 Years = 9th Year of Augustus

1st Year of Herod to Death of Herod
-33 BC + 37 Years = 4 AD

This agrees with the dating of the Olympiads:

Legend Key
1 Olympiad = 4 Years

184th Olympiad/184th Olympiad 4th Year
1st Year of Augustus

186.25th Olympiad/187th Olympiad 1st Year
9th Year of Augustus
1st Year of Herod

194.5th Olympiad/195th Olympiad 2nd Year
42nd Year of Augustus (Christ is Born)
33rd Year of Herod

195th Olympiad/195th Olympiad 4th Year
44th Year of Augustus
35th Year of Herod (Massacre of the Innocents)

195.5th Olympiad/196th Olympiad 2nd Year
46th Year of Augustus
37th Year of Herod (Herod dies)

By this reckoning we see king Herod ruling for 37 Years would have died in the 4th Year of Yeshua. And the Massacre of the Innocents was done by Herod in his 35th Year in the 2nd Year of our Lord. And so in the 33rd Year of Herod our Lord was born.

46th Year of Augustus to 1st Year of Tiberius
4 AD + 11 Years = 15 AD
46 Years + 11 Years = 57 Years

We see that Herod couldn't have become king of Judah in the 9th Year of Augustus, ruled for 37 Years and die in -4 BC as tradtion tells us. The numbers just don't add up unless you push back the year of Herod's death and the beginning of his reign by 8 Years:

4 AD - 8 Years = -4 BC
4 Years - 8 Years = -4 Years
4 - 8 = -4

-41 BC + 37 Years = -4 BC
-41 Years + 37 Years = -4 Years
-41 + 37 = -4

I am afraid that modern historians have played accounting tricks with the minds of everyone regarding the birth year of Christ our Lord.

Humble Penny · Jan 26, 2022

Obviously no one is obliged to agree with post #63 as everyone has to make up their own minds at the end of the day as to what they choose to believe. I did my best to present the numbers truthfully, but if anyone believes I could have done better or erred in my reckoning then please do call it out.

Benjamin Müller · Jan 26, 2022

@Humble Penny

The astronomy bit in the video I found interesting, but I got confused when he started talking about omitted years? Unless I misunderstood him. Like I've said before, much of this stuff is new to me. (Chronology and Roman History) So guidance from others who are well-versed in these topics is crucial for me.

I had a hard time following some of his arguments too, and had to pause and rewind at times because either I got confused or my mind started to wander. LOL But that's why I posted it for others to give objective critiques.

Benjamin Müller · Jan 26, 2022

@AbbaLove

Neither Humble Penny nor anyone in this thread has claimed that chronology is a substitute for faith. Wanting to understand history or get a proper grasp on ancient chronology doesn't make one faithless. Uncovering historical mysteries, requires understanding chronological dating.

I have gone through other Biblical historical events and the chronology, and have gained a better understanding of those biblical events. Faith is what has led all of us to study the Bible and its histories; history just helps re-enforce that faith.

Humble Penny · Jan 26, 2022

Isaac Aldermann said:
@AbbaLove

Neither Humble Penny nor anyone in this thread has claimed that chronology is a substitute for faith. Wanting to understand history or get a proper grasp on ancient chronology doesn't make one faithless. Uncovering historical mysteries, requires understanding chronological dating.

I have gone through other Biblical historical events and the chronology, and have gained a better understanding of those biblical events. Faith is what has lead all of us to study the Bible and its histories; history just helps re-enforce that faith.

Well said.

Benjamin Müller · Jan 26, 2022

Humble Penny said:
Well I didn't bother to give thorough critique of that YouTube video because I saw it would end up detracting from the main point of your thread.

Ah, no! I wasn't expecting a thorough critique. I summarized the main point I was concerned about--I also summarized it for those who didn't want to waste 35 minutes of their life. Ha ha.

Christian Gedge · Jan 26, 2022

Isaac Aldermann said:
Neither Humble Penny nor anyone in this thread has claimed that chronology is a substitute for faith. Wanting to understand history or get a proper grasp on ancient chronology doesn't make one faithless. Uncovering historical mysteries, requires understanding chronological dating.

One of the impediments to Jewish people finding Jesus as Saviour is how missionaries often present them with a dispensational system of counting Daniels 70 weeks. Such a system is false and a 'put-off' to thinking Jews. My motive in sharing chronological proofs on a Messianic forum is that God's ancient people discover Jesus, and Messianic Christians have their faith reinforced.

Christian Gedge · Jan 26, 2022

Christian Gedge said:
I would like to offer five reasons starting with Astronomical Data.

My third reason for the AD30 date is the Construction of Temple.

A direct reference is John 2:13-20. This was the occasion when Jesus claimed he would rebuild the temple within three days, to which the Jews replied,

"It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"

This discussion took place early in Christ’s ministry, shortly after his first miracle, and it was Passover time. Therefore, since it was the first year of his ministry, it would have been exactly three years prior to the last Passover.

The information enables a precision dating of Christ's death because Herod began construction of the temple in BC 20. BC 20 plus forty-six equals AD 27. Add three more years and what have we got? Passover (april) AD 30!

Humble Penny · Jan 26, 2022

Isaac Aldermann said:
@Humble Penny

The astronomy bit in the video I found interesting, but I got confused when he started talking about omitted years? Unless I misunderstood him. Like I've said before, much of this stuff is new to me. (Chronology and Roman History) So guidance from others who are well-versed in these topics is crucial for me.

I had a hard time following some of his arguments too, and had to pause and rewind at times because either I got confused or my mind started to wander. LOL But that's why I posted it for others to give objective critiques.

Well I didn't bother to give a thorough critique of that YouTube video because I saw it would end up detracting from the main point of your thread. The Opened Scroll Ministry made two main points:

The date of Augustus Caesar's death was set 3 Years too early because the total solar eclipse mentioned by Cassius Dio in his histories supposedly didn't align with the tables provided by NASA. Therefore Augustus should've have died in 17 AD instead of 14 AD.
He believes Herod the Great died in -1 BC instead of -4 BC because of the aforementioned astronomical event mentioned in his first point.

His way of provng this to be true was quite sloppy. And on top of that his math was wrong as he failed to show how Augustus still ruled for 57 Years while dying in 17 AD lol! Also these screenshots will show how our poor man suffers some type of malady of the mind:

Cassius Dio

Tacitus

Flavius Josephus

It it is clear among our historians that Augustus indeed ruled for 57 Years with slight differences of 6 Months to 1 Year. The Olympiads preserved by Eusebius and Jerome help us sort out this matter with ease.

Otherwise it seems that our poor man could not find the total solar eclipse to have occured at the death of Augustus because he failed to read the words of Cassius Dio properly. The lad simply read the heading in Cassius' work, which the translator put to indicate that Augustus died in 14 AD: not that the total solar eclipse occured in that year; furthermore our YouTuber failed to see that that there were multiple omens which showed themselves in the heavens prior to the death of Augustus: this proper context indicates that Cassius was not connecting the total solar eclipse to the 57th Year of Augustus Caesar.

After doing some digging on this lunar eclipse which occured in the year Herod died I found one passage from Josephus which mentions it:

As we can see this lunar eclipse is very ambiguous as we aren't told by Josephus what phase the Moon was in. However I thought I would check the tables provided by NASA to see what type of lunar eclipse would've occured in the year 4 AD which I have claimed to be the true year Herod died in post #64:

So we clearly see according to the tables of NASA that for the year 4 AD we would have seen two separate partial lunar eclipses. And since Josephus mentions there was a fast which was about to occur near the death of Herod. This was clearly not the Day of Atonement because the astronomical dates don't align with our historical records. However after doing some digging I found a list of fast days in the Megallit Taanit - The Scroll of Fasting (which I will upload for your convenience):

Seeing that Kislev is the 9th Month in which the Judah Maccabee instituted Hannukah we are being told that Herod would've died shortly after this partial lunar eclipse

7th Month [Tishri]
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
_________01 02 03 04
05 06 07 08 09 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30______

8th Month [Bul/Marcheshvan/Cheshvan]
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
_______________01 02 (Partial Lunar Eclipse)
03 04 05 06 07 08 09
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30

9th Month [Kislev]
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 (Herod dies in 37th Year)
08 09 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30[01]___________

September-October
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
_________17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 01 02 03 04
05 06 07 08 09 10 11
12 13 14 15 16______

October-November
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
______________ 17 18 (Partial Lunar Eclipse)
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31 01
02 03 04 05 06 07 08
09 10 11 12 13 14 15

November-December
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 (Herod dies in 37th Year)
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30 01 02 03 04 05 06
07 08 09 10 11 12 13
14 15 16____________

As we can see this is the only way to match the astronomical data for the lunar eclipse mentioned by Josephus with the data from Megallit Taanit - The Scroll of Fasting, and the tables from NASA. I am no astronomy expert...I just play match the data.

Humble Penny · Jan 26, 2022

Humble Penny said:
Well I didn't bother to give thorough critique of that YouTube video because I saw it would end up detracting from the main point of your thread. The Opened Scroll Ministry made two main points:

The date of Augustus Caesar's death was set 3 Years too early because the total solar eclipse mentioned by Cassius Dio in his histories supposedly didn't align with the tables provided by NASA. Therefore Augustus should've have died in 17 AD instead of 14 AD.

He believes Herod the Great died in -1 BC instead of -4 BC because of the aforementioned astronomical event mentioned in his first point.

His way of provng this to be true was quite sloppy. And on top of that his math was wrong as he failed to show how Augustus still ruled for 57 Years while dying in 17 AD lol! Also these screenshots will show how our poor man suffers some type of malady of the mind:

Cassius Dio
View attachment 311690
View attachment 311692
Tacitus
View attachment 311694
Flavius Josephus
View attachment 311695

It it is clear among our historians that Augustus indeed ruled for 57 Years with slight differences of 6 Months to 1 Year. The Olympiads preserved by Eusebius and Jerome help us sort out this matter with ease.

Otherwise it seems that our poor man could not find the total solar eclipse to have occured at the death of Augustus because he failed to read the words of Cassius Dio properly. The lad simply read the heading in Cassius' work, which the translator put to indicate that Augustus died in 14 AD: not that the total solar eclipse occured in that year; furthermore our YouTuber failed to see that that there were multiple omens which showed themselves in the heavens prior to the death of Augustus: this proper context indicates that Cassius was not connecting the total solar eclipse to the 57th Year of Augustus Caesar.

After doing some digging on this lunar eclipse which occured in the year Herod died I found one passage from Josephus which mentions it:

View attachment 311699

As we can see this lunar eclipse is very ambiguous as we aren't told by Josephus what phase the Moon was in. However I thought I would check the tables provided by NASA to see what type of lunar eclipse would've occured in the year 4 AD which I have claimed to be the true year Herod died in post #64:
View attachment 311700

So we clearly see according to the tables of NASA that for the year 4 AD we would have seen two separate partial lunar eclipses. And since Josephus mentions there was a fast which was about to occur near the death of Herod. This was clearly not the Day of Atonement because the astronomical dates don't align with our historical records. However after doing some digging I found a list of fast days in the Megallit Taanit - The Scroll of Fasting (which I will upload for your convenience):

View attachment 311702

View attachment 311704
Seeing that Kislev is the 9th Month in which the Judah Maccabee instituted Hannukah we are being told that Herod would've died shortly after this partial lunar eclipse

7th Month [Tishri]
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
_________01 02 03 04
05 06 07 08 09 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30______

8th Month [Bul/Marcheshvan/Cheshvan]
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
_______________01 02
03 04 05 06 07 08 09
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30

9th Month [Kislev]
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 (Herod dies in 37th Year)
08 09 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30[01]___________

September-October
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
_________17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 01 02 03 04
05 06 07 08 09 10 11
12 13 14 15 16______

October-November
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
______________ 17 18 (Partial Lunar Eclipse)
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31 01
02 03 04 05 06 07 08
09 10 11 12 13 14 15

November-December
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 (Herod dies in 37th Year)
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30 01 02 03 04 05 06
07 08 09 10 11 12 13
14 15 16____________

As we can see this is the only way to match the astronomical data for the lunar eclipse mentioned by Josephus with the data from Megallit Taanit - The Scroll of Fasting, and the tables from NASA. I am no astronomy expert...I just play match the data.

Here's the file I mentioned Megallit Taanit - The Scroll of Fasting.

Humble Penny · Jan 26, 2022

For anyone curious about how I aligned my calendar dates in post #71 just check out this weekday calculator:

Weekday Calculator – What Day is this Date?

Humble Penny · Jan 26, 2022

Caught a small error in my reply on post #71. I have to correct the death of Herod from 3 Kislev to 7 Kislev.

Humble Penny · Jan 26, 2022

My logic behind the ordering of the dates in post #71 are explained by the fact that the dating of Megallit Taanit - The Scroll of Fasting is said to be written around 7 AD. Therefore because of this the Jews would not have been using the system of Hillel II and would have followed the biblical ordering of the months as we find them preserved in our current canon.

GodLovesCats · Jan 26, 2022

Has anyone forgotten "three days and three nights" is not the same as "on the third day" and "before the sun came up" is not the same as Sunday morning to most of the world. I have seen suggestions including this: Jesus was crucified on a Saturday and resurrected on a Tuesday; the third day of the week Others I found attempt to make sense out of it by Jesus already being gone before Sunday morning by basing that date on geology, meteorology, and astronomy.

Humble Penny · Jan 26, 2022

ChristianForCats said:
Has anyone forgotten "three days and three nights" is not the same as "on the third day" and "before the sun came up" is not the same as Sunday morning to most of the world. I have seen suggestions including this: Jesus was crucified on a Saturday and resurrected on a Tuesday; the third day of the week Others I found attempt to make sense out of it by Jesus already being gone before Sunday morning by basing that date on geology, meteorology, and astronomy.

That is unrelated to the topic of this thread which is trying to pin down the year Christ died...not the day.

Benjamin Müller · Jan 27, 2022

Christian Gedge said:
My third reason for the AD30 date is the Construction of Temple.

A direct reference is John 2:13-20. This was the occasion when Jesus claimed he would rebuild the temple within three days, to which the Jews replied,

"It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"

This discussion took place early in Christ’s ministry, shortly after his first miracle, and it was Passover time. Therefore, since it was the first year of his ministry, it would have been exactly three years prior to the last Passover.

The information enables a precision dating of Christ's death because Herod began construction of the temple in BC 20. BC 20 plus forty-six equals AD 27. Add three more years and what have we got? Passover (april) AD 30!

View attachment 311696

This was brilliant! Thank you. I knew the bible had significant dating clues, it was just finding them.

@Humble Penny

Wow! I think you cracked it. I really appreciate you going through all the documents to disprove The Opened Scrolls Ministry. As I looked at some of his other videos, I had an inkling that he was wrong somehow, but couldn't put my finger on it, so I appreciate you critiquing his main point.

My father always says, "Truth has a ring to it", and while the video was interesting, it didn't have the ring to it.

I'm going to grab my notebook and carefully notate your post.

ChristianForCats said:
Has anyone forgotten "three days and three nights" is not the same as "on the third day" and "before the sun came up" is not the same as Sunday morning to most of the world. I have seen suggestions including this: Jesus was crucified on a Saturday and resurrected on a Tuesday; the third day of the week Others I found attempt to make sense out of it by Jesus already being gone before Sunday morning by basing that date on geology, meteorology, and astronomy.

Lol. Yeah. . . . the whole thread got shut down for a few days over that. I got a warning and a strike on my account during a spat with another member. (I admittedly deserved that strike) If you'd like to discuss that then there might be another thread or you can make one.

I've come to the conclusion that the day of the week, while trying to pin down the year, is an irrelevant argument. The Jews would have used visual observation when keeping the Passover; so, NASA might say the full moon is exactly on April 28th at 01:02:47am, but the Jews didn't have that precision, so the Passover might've been any where from 1-3 days off.

Three days and three nights is more of a doctrinal issue than a historical issue anyway.

Humble Penny · Jan 27, 2022

Isaac Aldermann said:
@Humble Penny

Wow! I think you cracked it. I really appreciate you going through all the documents to disprove The Opened Scrolls Ministry. As I looked at some of his other videos, I had an inkling that he was wrong somehow, but couldn't put my finger on it, so I appreciate you critiquing his main point.

My father always says, "Truth has a ring to it", and while the video was interesting, it didn't have the ring to it.

I'm going to grab my notebook and carefully notate your post.

Yes that inkling you mention is the same one I use and go by too ha ha ha. I felt the same exact thing when going through his videos so, I was like, "I am going to get down to the bottom of this! This man is clearly in error somewhere": and post #71 showed exactly where he was in error big time.

When dealing with highly sophisticated arguments or people that think they're clever, I like to take a step back and look at their main idea and conclusion. I learned early from my English teacher that:

Your main idea and conclusion will be the same. The writing in between are simply the supporting ideas.

And ever since then I have not let that important principle leave me when listening to a theory, hypothesis, argument, opinion, etc. And it has never once failed me. This is because you will find the substance or essence of the view in question in the Main Idea and Conclusion: therefore if you can disprove those then you have destroyed the entire body of work...and this falls in line with that ancient military principle:

Cut off the head and the body will fall.

It's impossible to know every type of view which will come up, but if you use these guiding principles when looking over the works of others, especially those contrary to Scripture, you'll find the error in no time.

For example Darwin in his On the Origin of the Species his main idea is natural selection which he defines to be a random and unconscious act. Later on in the same book he goes on to explain his theory of Natural Selection using an analogy of the Dog Breeder mating his dogs with only other dogs who have the best traits in them to make a stronger and better breed. However here he clearly contradicts his main idea:

For if Natural Selection is random and an unconscious decision, then why is the Dog Breeder thoughtfuly and consciously selecting on purpose the dogs with the best traits to mate with one another?

Sadly a fool is a fool no matter how high of an education he has reached lol! This is in line with the proverb of king Solomon:

"It does a fool no good to spend money on an education, because he has no common sense."
Proverbs 17:16 GNT

Even if you watch men like Dr. Jordan B. Peterson, though an unbeliever he clearly exposed the foolishness of many in academia...sigh...ha ha ha. It's like do we actually have dummies running the country and teaching us? And let's not even recount the Financial Crisis of 2008.

Christian Gedge · Jan 29, 2022

Christian Gedge said:
I would like to offer five reasons starting with Astronomical Data.

My fourth reason for the AD30 date is Jesus' age.

In addition to the above timelines, a major difficulty for the AD 33 date theory is the age of Jesus when he got baptised. Luke 3:23 tells us he was "about thirty years old." (It was customary for Levites to begin their ministry at thirty.)

Now, it is a fact that Jesus was born before BC 4 because that was the year King Herod died not long after he had attempted to murder Mary’s child. So Jesus would have been born BC 5 making him about thirty at the time of his baptism just as Luke said.

Proponents of later crucifixion dates find themselves having to do a generous stretch on Luke’s word, 'about.' Does 'about thirty' mean thirty-four? Did he die 3½ years later at age thirty-eight? The answer is no! Jesus was about thirty when he got baptised.

Date of Christ's Crucifixation

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