Date of Christ's Crucifixation

[Humble Penny]

Your basic arithmetic adds noting to your point, you have just reworded your previous post.



The way you want to interpret Daniel 9:24-27 is up to you.


This vision in Daniel 9 occurs ± 5 years before the Temple was rebuilt, and therefore is not to the Completion of the Temple as you suggest above.

Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word(command or decree) to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one,

The question you should answer is why are you ignoring the 70th week?

The prophesy was specified as 70 week of years, NOT as 69 weeks of years.

7 x 7 = 49 years to restore Jerusalem.
62 x 7 = 434 years to Messiah
1 x 7 = 7 years to make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.

“Seventy weeks" are decreed about your people and your holy city,
1. to finish the transgression,
2. to put an end to sin, and
3. to atone for iniquity,
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. to seal both vision and prophet, and
6. to anoint a most holy place.

Shalom

Also according to Acts 1-2:1 Yeshua ascended back to heaven 50 Days after His crucifixion right on Pentecost..so when and where exactly, according to your view, did Yeshua make a covenant with many for 1 Week? And why did He not destroy the Temple and setup the Abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place?

 

[daq]

This vision in Daniel 9 occurs ± 5 years before the Temple was rebuilt, and therefore is not to the Completion of the Temple as you suggest above.

Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word(command or decree) to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one,

The question you should answer is why are you ignoring the 70th week?

The prophesy was specified as 70 week of years, NOT as 69 weeks of years.

7 x 7 = 49 years to restore Jerusalem.
62 x 7 = 434 years to Messiah
1 x 7 = 7 years to make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.

“Seventy weeks" are decreed about your people and your holy city,
1. to finish the transgression,
2. to put an end to sin, and
3. to atone for iniquity,
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. to seal both vision and prophet, and
6. to anoint a most holy place.

Shalom

The passage says nothing about weeks of years. Moreover the statement in Daniel 10:2-3 elaborates, using the term shabuim yamim, and shabuim is the same peculiar form used for the weeks in Daniel 9.

Moreover, (if you include the first two explanatory verses in Daniel 9), the prayer in Daniel 9 is structured in three sets of sevens, and in the final line of the final seven, verse twenty-one, the iysh Gabriel touches him about the time of the evening minhah, which is also the ninth hour in the prayer times. Look very closely at what is said in verse fifteen: on what day did bnei Yisrael come forth out of Mitzraim?

What day then does verse twenty-one likely represent if verse fifteen represents the fifteenth of the first month? And what then happens in the twenty-fourth day of the first month in Sefer Daniel? See Daniel 10:2-4. Thus three shabuim yamim are twenty and one yom, (Daniel 10:13), but these are the seven yamim in a sacred calendar day, and thus, three days.

 

[Filippus]

How can Yeshua die after 69 Weeks and make a covenant with many for 1 Week while still in the grave?

The scripture doesn’t claim that Jesus died after 69 Weeks or 483 years!
Jesus was alive and well during the 70th week.

That interpretation doesn’t fit into the 70 weeks specified and is in direct conflict with the definition of the 490 years.

Then after the sixty-two weeks [of years] the Anointed One will be cut off…

Now from above, there are two options:

1. Either the crucifixion occurs on the 483rd year from the decree was given and ignore verses 26-27 and argue for a different interpretation of the 70th week.

2. The other option is to accept that the detail given in verses 26 and 27 is the detail required to understand the 70th week.

In the 2nd option the 70th week can be dated and follow directly after the 69th week as everyone expects.

The first option requires us to believe that the 70 weeks were never completed, which is simply misrepresentation of verse 24.

If the 70 weeks were never completed, the gap should be clearly specified and how long the gap will be from scripture, but this evidence doesn’t exist! Therefore option one is not supported.

Yet people insist that the evidence is there, and relies heavily on conjecture to argue this point.

I am not against a futuristic date, but to support a futuristic date, they will need to show how the complete 70 weeks will replay itself, which obviously has not been done!
Futuristic prophetic date:
7 x 7 =49?
62 x 7 = 434?
1 x 7 = 7?

However, allowing verses 26-27 to explain the 70th week.

Meaning the 3½ years is after the 483rd year and is “Then after the sixty-two weeks”, not contradicting the verse in claiming a crucifixion falling during the 70th week, and is actually supported by scripture and historical events. The objections made are driven from ulterior motives.

This argument for the crucifixion on the 69th week, actually disqualifies itself, because it then redefines the period as only 69 weeks to crucifixion.

This is clearly not the case from its definition found in verse 24, which specifies 70 weeks till Messiah.

“Seventy weeks are determined (NOT 69 WEEKS)
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy, And
To anoint the Most Holy.

And the above verse 24 is summarised in the 70th-week climax specified in 26-27,

To confirm a covenant with many for one week;
To bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

The climax of the 70 week prophesy period is the 70th week and not the 69th week!

The prophecy’s 70th week, identifies the Messiah ministry week, “Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week (70th week); But in the middle of the week (70th week) He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

This is why people interpret the “he” as the antichrist because they place the crucifixion on the 483rd year, which doesn’t fit the calendar, and forced them to argue for a different interpretation of the 70th week, which is simply conjectured.

Shalom

 

[Filippus]

Also according to Acts 1-2:1 Yeshua ascended back to heaven 50 Days after His crucifixion right on Pentecost..so when and where exactly, according to your view, did Yeshua make a covenant with many for 1 Week? And why did He not destroy the Temple and setup the Abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place?

50 Days after His crucifixion right on Pentecost they were all filled with the Holy Spirit!

This was the 3rd month 30 AD, in the middle of the 70th week.

Therefore Jesus's ministry in the flesh from 27-30 AD, the Holy Spirit from 30 AD till current.

The 33 AD being the seventh year of the 70th week or the 490th year of the prophesy from Daniel 9.

The 33 AD included Paul's conversion and Peter's vision confirming God’s acceptance of Gentiles.

Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Acts 26:22-23 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

The 70th week was concluded with His covenant (first the Jew then the Gentiles) with many for 1 Week.

Shalom

 

[Humble Penny]

The scripture doesn’t claim that Jesus died after 69 Weeks or 483 years!
Jesus was alive and well during the 70th week.

That interpretation doesn’t fit into the 70 weeks specified and is in direct conflict with the definition of the 490 years.

Then after the sixty-two weeks [of years] the Anointed One will be cut off…

Now from above, there are two options:

1. Either the crucifixion occurs on the 483rd year from the decree was given and ignore verses 26-27 and argue for a different interpretation of the 70th week.

2. The other option is to accept that the detail given in verses 26 and 27 is the detail required to understand the 70th week.

In the 2nd option the 70th week can be dated and follow directly after the 69th week as everyone expects.

The first option requires us to believe that the 70 weeks were never completed, which is simply misrepresentation of verse 24.

If the 70 weeks were never completed, the gap should be clearly specified and how long the gap will be from scripture, but this evidence doesn’t exist! Therefore option one is not supported.

Yet people insist that the evidence is there, and relies heavily on conjecture to argue this point.

I am not against a futuristic date, but to support a futuristic date, they will need to show how the complete 70 weeks will replay itself, which obviously has not been done!
Futuristic prophetic date:
7 x 7 =49?
62 x 7 = 434?
1 x 7 = 7?

However, allowing verses 26-27 to explain the 70th week.

Meaning the 3½ years is after the 483rd year and is “Then after the sixty-two weeks”, not contradicting the verse in claiming a crucifixion fell during the 70th week, and is actually supported by scripture and historical events. The objections made are driven from ulterior motives.

This argument for the crucifixion on the 69th week, actually disqualifies itself, because it then redefines the period as only 69 weeks to crucifixion.

This is clearly not the case from its definition found in verse 24, which specifies 70 weeks till Messiah.

“Seventy weeks are determined (NOT 69 WEEKS)
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy, And
To anoint the Most Holy.

And the above verse 24 is summarised in the 70th-week climax specified in 26-27,

To confirm a covenant with many for one week;
To bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

The climax of the 70 week prophesy period is the 70th week and not the 69th week!

The prophecy’s 70th week, identifies the Messiah ministry week, “Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week (70th week); But in the middle of the week (70th week) He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

This is why people interpret the “he” as the antichrist because they place the crucifixion on the 483rd year, which doesn’t fit the calendar, and forced them to argue for a different interpretation of the 70th week, which is simply conjectured.

Shalom

50 Days after His crucifixion right on Pentecost they were all filled with the Holy Spirit!

This was the 3rd month 30 AD, in the middle of the 70th week.

Therefore Jesus's ministry in the flesh from 27-30 AD, the Holy Spirit from 30 AD till current.

The 33 AD being the seventh year of the 70th week or the 490th year of the prophesy from Daniel 9.

The 33 AD included Paul's conversion and Peter's vision confirming God’s acceptance of Gentiles.

Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Acts 26:22-23 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

The 70th week was concluded with His covenant (first the Jew then the Gentiles) with many for 1 Week.

Shalom

Have you noticed that Scripture has a clear pattern where God and Christ say what's going to happen and then we read it about it being fulfilled? And when Scripture wants us to know something will happen many years from now it also tells us that?

Daniel 9:24
70 Weeks total
Daniel 9:25
7 Weeks to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
62 Weeks city is built in troublesome times
Daniel 9:26
After 62 Weeks Messiah is cut off (i.e. dies), and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (Temple)
Daniel 9:27
The prince will make a covenant with many for 1 Week and in the middle of the week (i.e. 3.5 Years) will stop the offering and oblations and set up the Abomination of Desolation

Sadly many people think this is the end of the vision, and as a result completely miss out on the fact that Daniel 11-12 tell you the rest of the details! But to keep this brief how interesting is it that 7 Years ÷ 2 = 3.5 Years and Daniel talks about a time (1 Year), times (2 Years), and half a time (0.5 Years)? We prove Time = 1 Year because Nebuchadnezzar is said to have had 7 Times pass over him in his madness and, since times is preceded by a number, and not used by itself we see that Time = 1 Year in the prophetic cases of Daniel. And when we perform some math we get some cool results:

3.5 Years x 12 Months = 42 Months
42 Months x 30 Days = 1,260 Days
1,260 Days ÷ 3.5 Years = 360 Days

Clearly God and the ancient Hebrews weren't using a lunar calendar because you can't get those numbers with one. But you can get these numbers with a solar calendar, and we proved this straight from Daniel without jumping around.

Daniel 11:1-28
Gives you the history of Cyrus to Alexander the Great, the split of Alexander's kingdom between his four generals to the Ptolemaic Dynasty, and the Maccabean Revolt where Antiochus Epiphanies defiles the Temple.

Daniel 11:29-12:1
Tells you about the details of Daniel 9:27 and the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation: we know Daniel 9, 11, & 12 are all connected because they are dated to begiven in the 1st Year of Darius the Mede.

Ezra and Nehemiah

1. Cyrus gives the decree to rebuild the Temple.
2. Artaxerxes orders construction to stop.
3. Darius the Great orders construction on Temple to resume and has it completed in his 6th Year.
4. Artaxerxes I orders Jerusalem to be rebuilt.

We see that while there are four Persian kings mentioned Alexander the Great doesn't defeat Artaxerxes I but Darius III at Gaugamela: therefore Darius III is the fourth Persian king prophesied by Daniel and the Ram with Two Horns defeated by the Goat with One Horn.

1 Maccabees
Alexander of Macedon defeat Darius III and becomes king of Babylon for 12 Years, and at his death his kingdom is split between his generals. Tells you about the Abomination of Desolation set up by Antiochus Epiphanies. Judah Maccabee is a type of Christ while Antiochus Epiphanies is a type of the Anti-Christ.

Matthew 24:15ff.
Jesus tells you to watch out for the Abomination of Desolation being setup in the Holy Place prior to His Second Coming as a sign of the Great Tribulation...and this matches what you read in Daniel 9:27 and 12:1ff.

70 AD
Titus Vespasian destroys the 2nd Temple and Jerusalem. Here Titus is a type of the Anti-Christ or the prince who is to come to destroy the city and the sanctuary. Clearly Jerusalem couldn't be restored without the Temple standing first.

Revelation 11
"Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for 42 months."
Revelation 11:1‭-‬2 NASB1995

Hmmm...looks like Scripture's pretty clear that the 70th Week occurs before the Second Coming of Christ. Scripture also tells us in the creation week that just as Adam was given dominion over the earth and the animals on the 6th Day: so too will Yeshua come back after 6,000 Years and rule for 1,000 Years over the nations and establish His Kingdom.

Not only has Scripture shown itself to be internally consistent, but it also aligns with world history. I'm not giving my interpretation dear brother, I'm simply matching real world data against Scripture.

 

[Humble Penny]

Have you noticed that Scripture has a clear pattern where God and Christ say what's going to happen and then we read it about it being fulfilled? And when Scripture wants us to know something will happen many years from now it also tells us that?

Daniel 9:24
70 Weeks total
Daniel 9:25
7 Weeks to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
62 Weeks city is built in troublesome times
Daniel 9:26
After 62 Weeks Messiah is cut off (i.e. dies), and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (Temple)
Daniel 9:27
The prince will make a covenant with many for 1 Week and in the middle of the week (i.e. 3.5 Years) will stop the offering and oblations and set up the Abomination of Desolation

Sadly many people think this is the end of the vision, and as a result completely miss out on the fact that Daniel 11-12 tell you the rest of the details! But to keep this brief how interesting is it that 7 Years ÷ 2 = 3.5 Years and Daniel talks about a time (1 Year), times (2 Years), and half a time (0.5 Years)? We prove Time = 1 Year because Nebuchadnezzar is said to have had 7 Times pass over him in his madness and, since times is preceded by a number, and not used by itself that Time = 1 Year in the prophetic cases of Daniel. And when we perform some math we get some cool results:

3.5 Years x 12 Months = 42 Months
42 Months x 30 Days = 1,260 Days
1,260 Days ÷ 3.5 Years = 360 Days

Clearly God and the ancient Hebrews weren't using a lunar calendar because you can't get those numbers with one. But you can get these numbers with a solar calendar, and we proved this straight from Daniel without jumping around.

Daniel 11:1-28
Gives you the history of Cyrus to Alexander the Great, the split of Alexander's kingdom between his four generals to the Ptolemaic Dynasty, and the Maccabean Revolt where Antiochus Epiphanies defiles the Temple.

Daniel 11:29-12:1
Tells you about the details of Daniel 9:27 and the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation: we know Daniel 9, 11, & 12 are all connected because they are dated to begiven in the 1st Year of Darius the Mede.

Ezra and Nehemiah

1. Cyrus gives the decree to rebuild the Temple
2. Artaxerxes orders construction to stop
3. Darius the Great orders construction on Temple to resume and has it completed in his 6th Year
4. Artaxerxes I orders Jerusalem to be rebuilt

We see that while there are four Persian kings mentioned Alexander the Great doesn't defeat Artaxerxes I but Darius III at Gaugamela.

1 Maccabees
Alexander of Macedon defeat Darius III and becomes king of Babylon for 12 Years, and at his death his kingdom is split between his generals. Tells you about the Abomination of Desolation set up by Antiochus Epiphanies. Judah Maccabee is a type of Christ while Antiochus Epiphanies is a type of the Anti-Christ.

Matthew 24:15ff.
Jesus tells you to watch out for the Abomination of Desolation being setup in the Holy Place prior to His Second Coming as a sign of the Great Tribulation...and this matches what you read in Daniel 9:27 and 12:1ff.

70 AD
Titus Vespasian destroys the 2nd Temple and Jerusalem. Here Titus is a type of the Anti-Christ or the prince who is to come to destroy the city and the sanctuary. Clearly Jerusalem couldn't be restored without the Temple standing first.

Revelation 11
"Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for 42 months."
Revelation 11:1‭-‬2 NASB1995

Hmmm...looks like Scriptures pretty clear that the 70th Week occurs before the Second Coming of Christ. Scripture also tells us in the creation week that just as Adam was given dominion over the earth and the animals on the 6th Day: so too will Yeshua come back after 6,000 Years and rule for 1,000 Years over the nations and establish His Kingdom.

Not only has Scripture shown itself to be internally consistent, but it also aligns with world history. I'm not giving my interpretation dear brother, I'm simply matching real world data against Scripture.

6000 AM - 7 Years = 5993 AM

So the 70th Week will begin exactly 7 Years before the Second Coming of Christ. The Great Tribulation will occur in the year 5996.5 AM and 3.5 Years later Yeshua will return sometime in the year 6000 AM.

 

[Filippus]

Have you noticed that Scripture has a clear pattern where God and Christ say what's going to happen and then we read it about it being fulfilled? And when Scripture wants us to know something will happen many years from now it also tells us that?


3.5 Years x 12 Months = 42 Months
42 Months x 30 Days = 1,260 Days
1,260 Days ÷ 3.5 Years = 360 Days

Let’s play…
Nebuchadnezzar is said to have had 7 Times pass over him

360 days X 7 years = 2520 days

Nebuchadnezzar Dream (Daniel 2 603 BC) The first year being 602 BC

-602 + 2520 = 1918 AD

When World War I ended in 1918 with an Allied victory, the 400-year Ottoman Empire rule ended, and Great Britain took control over what became known as Palestine (modern-day Israel, Palestine and Jordan).


11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

-602 + 1290 = 688 AD Temple mount occupied

688 + 1260 = 1948 AD

On 14 May 1948, Israel was officially declared an independent state with David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, as the prime minister.

Shalom

 

[Humble Penny]

Let’s play…
Nebuchadnezzar is said to have had 7 Times pass over him

360 days X 7 years = 2520 days

Nebuchadnezzar Dream (Daniel 2 603 BC) The first year being 602 BC

-602 + 2520 = 1918 AD

When World War I ended in 1918 with an Allied victory, the 400-year Ottoman Empire rule ended, and Great Britain took control over what became known as Palestine (modern-day Israel, Palestine and Jordan).


11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

-602 + 1290 = 688 AD Temple mount occupied

688 + 1260 = 1948 AD

On 14 May 1948, Israel was officially declared an independent state with David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, as the prime minister.

Shalom

So how did you get 2,520 Days = 2,520 Years from Nebuchadnezzar's madness? The 7 times are restricted to his madness and don't speak of anything else...

I think you're confusing yourself with some odd teachings and just not paying attention to how you're converting the numbers...

Time = 1 Year
7 Times = 7 Years
7 Years x 360 Days = 2,520 Days
2,520 Days ÷ 30 Days = 84 Months
84 Months ÷ 12 Months = 7 Years
1,290 Days ÷ 30 Days = 43 Months
43 Months ÷ 12 Months = 3.583...OR
3 Years 6 Months 30 Days

I could have missed something, but I definitely don't see Daniel using the 1 Day = 1 Year principle we see in Numbers and Ezekiel. And these numbers along with the ones I showed in post #125 point to the ancient Hebrews using a solar calendar and not a lunar one...so while this thread isn't about calendars specifically the above does show that a non-secular solar calendar is being used that keeps the reigns of all the kings and the lifespans of people in line and easy to count.

 

[daq]

My third reason for the AD30 date is the Construction of Temple.

A direct reference is John 2:13-20. This was the occasion when Jesus claimed he would rebuild the temple within three days, to which the Jews replied,

"It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"​

This discussion took place early in Christ’s ministry, shortly after his first miracle, and it was Passover time. Therefore, since it was the first year of his ministry, it would have been exactly three years prior to the last Passover.

The information enables a precision dating of Christ's death because Herod began construction of the temple in BC 20. BC 20 plus forty-six equals AD 27. Add three more years and what have we got? Passover (april) AD 30!

View attachment 311696

It is doubtful that John 2:20 is meant that way. There is a curious statement in the Acts of Pilate a.k.a. Gospel of Nicodemus where this statement is repeated before Pilate, and they say that Solomon built the temple in forty-six years.

Gospel of Nicodemus IV (Chapter 4:1) M.R. James
1 And Pilate left Jesus in the judgement hall and went forth to the Jews and said unto them: I find no fault in him. The Jews say unto him: This man said: I am able to destroy this temple and in three days to build it up. Pilate saith: What temple? The Jews say: That which Solomon built in forty and six years but which this man saith he will destroy and build it in three days.
The Gospel of Nicodemus

Why would they say it this manner and attribute the building of the temple to Solomon? Whether one counts this writing as true or not isn't the point: the point here is that indeed this is the mindset of first century Judaism, no doubt, for the Solomon temple was viewed as eternal. Therefore every reconstruction or rebuilding was counted as being the temple which Solomon built.

In 1 Kings 7:38 we read a statement that is in the same form as this statement in John 2:20, that is, that Solomon was "seven years in building" the temple. Then we read in Ezra that the foundation for the second temple was laid by Zerubbabel but the work was interrupted. Then we read that the work on the second temple was begun in the second year of Darius, (Haggai 1), and completed in the sixth year of Darius, (Ezra 6:15).

Moreover when Herod began to remodel the second temple, which was first announced in 20BC, he spent a full year in preparations: the actual building did not commence until the spring of 19BC. These things are according to Josephus, which I am quite sure is the same place from where your information also comes. However the building in that time was done speedily because of the political situation and the doubts which the people had about Herod even being able to finish what he started.

The initial building took about a year and a half, from the spring of 19BC to the fall of 18BC, (for Herod celebrated the anniversary of his inauguration and he had taken Yerushalem on Yom haKippurim, and counted that day in his inauguration, and Josephus says the two days fell at the same time in that year when Herod's initial temple project was finished). After that Herod spent many more years in additions, building up embankments, fortifications, and additional building projects on the temple mount.

Thus we have seven years Solomon was in building the first temple, and four years Solomon was in building the second temple, for a total of eleven years. And they say Solomon was forty-six years in building the temple in their day, (John 2:20 and the Gospel of Nicodemus which mentions Solomon), which leaves about thirty-five years, (35+11=46).

If you read and understand it this way then it isn't a way to date the year of the Pesach in John 2 at all, for it would only be implying that the building project which Herod undertook was considered to have been fully completed sometime around 16-17 AD. That is, seven years for Solomon in building the first temple, four years for the second temple which is counted as under Solomon, and thirty-five years commencing under Herod and completed long after his death, and that time also being counted as under Solomon. Therefore they say, forty and six years was this temple in building, and in the Gospel of Nicodemus, that which Solomon built in forty and six years.

They say this because the Solomon temple is forever, howbeit, Solomon turned his face about to face the people when he offered up the prayer of dedication for the temple: and he never turns back around to face the temple building made with hands.

 

[Humble Penny]

It is doubtful that John 2:20 is meant that way. There is a curious statement in the Acts of Pilate a.k.a. Gospel of Nicodemus where this statement is repeated before Pilate, and they say that Solomon built the temple in forty-six years.

Gospel of Nicodemus IV (Chapter 4:1) M.R. James
1 And Pilate left Jesus in the judgement hall and went forth to the Jews and said unto them: I find no fault in him. The Jews say unto him: This man said: I am able to destroy this temple and in three days to build it up. Pilate saith: What temple? The Jews say: That which Solomon built in forty and six years but which this man saith he will destroy and build it in three days.
The Gospel of Nicodemus

Why would they say it this manner and attribute the building of the temple to Solomon? Whether one counts this writing as true or not isn't the point: the point here is that indeed this is the mindset of first century Judaism, no doubt, for the Solomon temple was viewed as eternal. Therefore every reconstruction or rebuilding was counted as being the temple which Solomon built.

In 1 Kings 7:38 we read a statement that is in the same form as this statement in John 2:20, that is, that Solomon was "seven years in building" the temple. Then we read in Ezra that the foundation for the second temple was laid by Zerubbabel but the work was interrupted. Then we read that the work on the second temple was begun in the second year of Darius, (Haggai 1), and completed in the sixth year of Darius, (Ezra 6:15).

Moreover when Herod began to remodel the second temple, which was first announced in 20BC, he spent a full year in preparations: the actual building did not commence until the spring of 19BC. These things are according to Josephus, which I am quite sure is the same place from where your information also comes. However the building in that time was done speedily because of the political situation and the doubts which the people had about Herod even being able to finish what he started.

The initial building took about a year and a half, from the spring of 19BC to the fall of 18BC, (for Herod celebrated the anniversary of his inauguration and he had taken Yerushalem on Yom haKippurim, and counted that day in his inauguration, and Josephus says the two days fell at the same time in that year when Herod's initial temple project was finished). After that Herod spent many more years in additions, building up embankments, fortifications, and additional building projects on the temple mount.

Thus we have seven years Solomon was in building the first temple, and four years Solomon was in building the second temple, for a total of eleven years. And they say Solomon was forty-six years in building the temple in their day, (John 2:20 and the Gospel of Nicodemus which mentions Solomon), which leaves about thirty-five years, (35+11=46).

If you read and understand it this way then it isn't a way to date the year of the Pesach in John 2 at all, for it would only be implying that the building project which Herod undertook was considered to have been fully completed sometime around 16-17 AD. That is, seven years for Solomon in building the first temple, four years for the second temple which is counted as under Solomon, and thirty-five years commencing under Herod and completed long after his death, and that time also being counted as under Solomon. Therefore they say, forty and six years was this temple in building, and in the Gospel of Nicodemus, that which Solomon built in forty and six years.

They say this because the Solomon temple is forever, howbeit, Solomon turned his face about to face the people when he offered up the prayer of dedication for the temple: and he never turns back around to face the temple building made with hands.

I don't know if you know how to add brother but no matter what date you use for the dedication of Solomon's Temple to 30 AD...you don't get 46 Years...the only logical explanation is counting the years of remodeling done by Herod to be literal 46 Years...

 

[daq]

I don't know if you know how to add brother but no matter what date you use for the dedication of Solomon's Temple to 30 AD...you don't get 46 Years...the only logical explanation is counting the years of remodeling done by Herod to be literal 46 Years...

And I don't know if you know how to read, but as for adding, I do know that 7+4+35=46.

 

[Humble Penny]

And I don't know if you know how to read, but as for adding, I do know that 7+4+35=46.

Context, context, context...

 

[daq]

Context, context, context...

Where do you suppose I obtained those things which I posted? However you seem to have left out era and culture.

 

[Humble Penny]

Where do you suppose I obtained those things which I posted? However you seem to have left out era and culture.

According to Daniel 9:25-26 the total construction time for the Second Temple was 49 Years which includes interruptions in building; the First Temple took 7 Years to build: in both cases once construction was completed there's no more construction time to account for.

So it's clear you didn't pay attention to the context...maybe I should stop playing stump the chump

 

[daq]

According to Daniel 9:25-26 the total construction time for the Second Temple was 49 Years which includes interruptions in building; the First Temple took 7 Years to build: in both cases once construction was completed there's no more construction time to account for.

So it's clear you didn't pay attention to the context...maybe I should stop playing stump the chump

Why not address what I actually offered and the scriptures cited therein? Here they are and more.

1 Kings 6:38 KJV
38 And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.

Ezra 3:8-13 KJV
8 Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD.
9 Then stood Jeshua with his sons and his brethren, Kadmiel and his sons, the sons of Judah, together, to set forward the workmen in the house of God: the sons of Henadad, with their sons and their brethren the Levites.
10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the LORD, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.
11 And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the LORD; because he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid.
12 But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, who were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted aloud for joy:
13 So that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people: for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the noise was heard afar off.

Ezra 4:1-24 KJV
1 Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the LORD God of Israel;
2 Then they came to Zerubbabel, and to the chief of the fathers, and said unto them, Let us build with you: for we seek your God, as ye do; and we do sacrifice unto him since the days of Esarhaddon king of Assur, which brought us up hither.
3 But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel, said unto them, Ye have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God; but we ourselves together will build unto the LORD God of Israel, as king Cyrus the king of Persia hath commanded us.
4 Then the people of the land weakened the hands of the people of Judah, and troubled them in building,
5 And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.
6 And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.
7 And in the days of Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue.
8 Rehum the chancellor and Shimshai the scribe wrote a letter against Jerusalem to Artaxerxes the king in this sort:
9 Then wrote Rehum the chancellor, and Shimshai the scribe, and the rest of their companions; the Dinaites, the Apharsathchites, the Tarpelites, the Apharsites, the Archevites, the Babylonians, the Susanchites, the Dehavites, and the Elamites,
10 And the rest of the nations whom the great and noble Asnappar brought over, and set in the cities of Samaria, and the rest that are on this side the river, and at such a time.
11 This is the copy of the letter that they sent unto him, even unto Artaxerxes the king; Thy servants the men on this side the river, and at such a time.
12 Be it known unto the king, that the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations.
13 Be it known now unto the king, that, if this city be builded, and the walls set up again, then will they not pay toll, tribute, and custom, and so thou shalt endamage the revenue of the kings.
14 Now because we have maintenance from the king's palace, and it was not meet for us to see the king's dishonour, therefore have we sent and certified the king;
15 That search may be made in the book of the records of thy fathers: so shalt thou find in the book of the records, and know that this city is a rebellious city, and hurtful unto kings and provinces, and that they have moved sedition within the same of old time: for which cause was this city destroyed.
16 We certify the king that, if this city be builded again, and the walls thereof set up, by this means thou shalt have no portion on this side the river.
17 Then sent the king an answer unto Rehum the chancellor, and to Shimshai the scribe, and to the rest of their companions that dwell in Samaria, and unto the rest beyond the river, Peace, and at such a time.
18 The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me.
19 And I commanded, and search hath been made, and it is found that this city of old time hath made insurrection against kings, and that rebellion and sedition have been made therein.
20 There have been mighty kings also over Jerusalem, which have ruled over all countries beyond the river; and toll, tribute, and custom, was paid unto them.
21 Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me.
22 Take heed now that ye fail not to do this: why should damage grow to the hurt of the kings?
23 Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power.
24 Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.

Zechariah 1:12-16 KJV
12 Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?
13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words.
14 So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy.
15 And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction.
16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.

Haggai 1:1-15 KJV
1 In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet unto Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, saying,
2 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, This people say, The time is not come, the time that the LORD'S house should be built.
3 Then came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet, saying,
4 Is it time for you, O ye, to dwell in your cieled houses, and this house lie waste?
5 Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.
6 Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes.
7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.
8 Go up to the mountain, and bring wood, and build the house; and I will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith the LORD.
9 Ye looked for much, and, lo, it came to little; and when ye brought it home, I did blow upon it. Why? saith the LORD of hosts. Because of mine house that is waste, and ye run every man unto his own house.
10 Therefore the heaven over you is stayed from dew, and the earth is stayed from her fruit.
11 And I called for a drought upon the land, and upon the mountains, and upon the corn, and upon the new wine, and upon the oil, and upon that which the ground bringeth forth, and upon men, and upon cattle, and upon all the labour of the hands.
12 Then Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, with all the remnant of the people, obeyed the voice of the LORD their God, and the words of Haggai the prophet, as the LORD their God had sent him, and the people did fear before the LORD.
13 Then spake Haggai the LORD'S messenger in the LORD'S message unto the people, saying, I am with you, saith the LORD.
14 And the LORD stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work in the house of the LORD of hosts, their God,
15 In the four and twentieth day of the sixth month, in the second year of Darius the king.

Ezra 6:14-15 KJV
14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.
15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

Solomon was seven (7) years in building the temple according to 1 Kings 6:38.

There are four (4) years from the second year of Darius to the sixth year of Darius. Solomon was thus eleven (11) years in building the temple when the second temple was completed in Ezra 6:15.

There are thirty-five years from 19BC to 17AD. Solomon was thus forty-six years in building the temple at the time of John 2:20 because it was counted as completed circa 16-17AD.

Did this help? or is it rather that you choose not to believe that the people in those days believed the temple of Solomon to be forever as the scripture says?

 

[daq]

Okay, so where were we CG? Oh yeah:

My second reason for the AD30 date is found in Luke's information regarding the ministry of John the Baptist. He says:

"In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar - when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene - during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." (Luke 3:1-3)​

So when was the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar? If we can ascertain that, all that remains to do is add 3½ years (the period of Jesus ministry from his baptism by John) and we arrive at the date of the cross.

Tiberius became sole emperor on the death of his adoptive father, Augustus. (Aug 19, AD 14) However, it is a well known fact that he had become co-regent with his ailing father two years beforehand in AD 12. He was made supreme military commander over Caesar's armies and provinces in that year. Ancient coins from Antioch dated AD 12 display the head of Tiberius and documents attest to his reign being fully in force from then. Thus, the inauguration in AD 14 as emperor was only a formalisation of a reign which had begun two years earlier.

Therefore, the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius would make it AD 26-27 correlating with the start of Christ's ministry and supporting the AD 30 date as the most likely date of his crucifixion.

Surely you believe the following statements so rather than ask I will simply post the passage.

Matthew 11:7-15 KJV
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So then, for those who will receive it, Yohanne is for all intents and purposes Eliyah. This has a serious impact on what is stated in Luke 3:1-2, for the author states that the Rhema-Word came unto Yohanne in the desert or wilderness.

Luke 3:1-2 KJV
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word [ρημα] of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

This is the same exact thing which is said of Eliyah at the very beginning of his ministry, that is, three and a half years before the rain: and in the LXX-Septuagint we also find rhema, (not logos).

1 Kings 17:1-2 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton)
1 And Eliu the prophet, the Thesbite of Thesbae of Galaad, said to Achaab, As the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel, lives, before whom I stand, there shall not be these years dew nor rain, except by the word of my mouth.
2 And the word [ρημα] of the Lord came to Eliu, saying,

So then, if one will receive it, Luke 3:1-2 is informing the reader that this is the commencement of the public ministry of Yohanne, who is Eliyah. This would be the most logical understanding because 1 Kings 17:1-2 is the commencement of the ministry of Eliyah, even the first mention of him in the scripture, and Yohanne is Eliyah, and therefore 1Kgs 17:1-7 is like a companion passage with Luke 3:1-2, (and the pattern repeats).

The difficulty: I understand that this also will not sit well with many super historians and chronology experts, but what this strongly implies is that there are, at the very least, three years and six months (Luke 4:25-26) between Luke 3:2 and Luke 3:21.

 

[Humble Penny]

Okay, so where were we CG? Oh yeah:



Surely you believe the following statements so rather than ask I will simply post the passage.

Matthew 11:7-15 KJV
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So then, for those who will receive it, Yohanne is for all intents and purposes Eliyah. This has a serious impact on what is stated in Luke 3:1-2, for the author states that the Rhema-Word came unto Yohanne in the desert or wilderness.

Luke 3:1-2 KJV
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word [ρημα] of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

This is the same exact thing which is said of Eliyah at the very beginning of his ministry, that is, three and a half years before the rain: and in the LXX-Septuagint we also find rhema, (not logos).

1 Kings 17:1-2 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton)
1 And Eliu the prophet, the Thesbite of Thesbae of Galaad, said to Achaab, As the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel, lives, before whom I stand, there shall not be these years dew nor rain, except by the word of my mouth.
2 And the word [ρημα] of the Lord came to Eliu, saying,

So then, if one will receive it, Luke 3:1-2 is informing the reader that this is the commencement of the public ministry of Yohanne, who is Eliyah. This would be the most logical understanding because 1 Kings 17:1-2 is the commencement of the ministry of Eliyah, even the first mention of him in the scripture, and Yohanne is Eliyah, and therefore 1Kgs 17:1-7 is like a companion passage with Luke 3:1-2, (and the pattern repeats).

The difficulty: I understand that this also will not sit well with many super historians and chronology experts, but what this strongly implies is that there are, at the very least, three years and six months (Luke 4:25-26) between Luke 3:2 and Luke 3:21.

So how did you get John coming in the spirit and power of Elijah to mean that he would be around for 3½ Years ministering? The passage you quoted from kings shows he only made it stop raining for that same time period...just think...all that wasted effort you exerted and you couldn't connect the dots that John died in the middle of Yeshua's ministry and not at the end of it:

"Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was happening; and he was greatly perplexed, because it was said by some that John had risen from the dead, and by some that Elijah had appeared, and by others that one of the prophets of old had risen again. Herod said, “I myself had John beheaded; but who is this man about whom I hear such things?” And he kept trying to see Him."
Luke 9:7‭-‬9 NASB1995

3.5 Year Ministry
3.5 Years ÷ 2 = 1.75 Years or 1 Year 3 Months

1 Year Ministry
1 Year ÷ 2 = 6 Months

The difficulty: I understand that this also will not sit well with many super historians and chronology experts, but what this strongly implies is that there are, at the very least, three years and six months (Luke 4:25-26) between Luke 3:2 and Luke 3:21.

This is completely destroyed by verse 23

So how could there be 3.5 Years between Luke 3:2 and 21 when Yeshua was just beginning His 30th Year two verses later? It's clear you didn't even bother to run the numbers or even get your basic facts in order. Lol! I am remembering why I stopped talking to you now...

 

[Humble Penny]

@daq this may be news to you which you've never heard before but seeing that Augustus Caesar ruled for 57 Years beginning in -42 BC we get the following timeline for Luke 3:

1st Year of Augustus to 1st Year of Tiberius
-42 BC + 57 Years = 15 AD

1st Year of Tiberius to His 15th Year
15 AD + 15 Years = 30 AD

From the official historical records we see that your wild imaginations are proven false concerning the fabled 3.5 Years between Luke 3:2 & 21...smh...

 

[daq]

So how did you get John coming in the spirit and power of Elijah to mean that he would be around for 3½ Years ministering? The passage you quoted from kings shows he only made it stop raining for that same time period...just think...all that wasted effort you exerted and you couldn't connect the dots that John died in the middle of Yeshua's ministry and not at the end of it:

Huh? It doesn't appear you understood much of what I said.

This is completely destroyed by verse 23

No, it isn't, but it might help if you actually understood what was said before thinking that you are refuting what was said.

So how could there be 3.5 Years between Luke 3:2 and 21 when Yeshua was just beginning His 30th Year two verses later?

As stated, because the public ministry of Yohanne would have been at least three years and six months if indeed you will receive that he is Eliyah.

It's clear you didn't even bother to run the numbers or even get your basic facts in order. Lol! I am remembering why I stopped talking to you now...

Yes, I did, and continue to do so, and I have learned the hard way many times over that one will not understand without believing the scripture and especially the Testimony of Meshiah in the Gospel accounts.

 

[daq]

@daq this may be news to you which you've never heard before but seeing that Augustus Caesar ruled for 57 Years beginning in -42 BC we get the following timeline for Luke 3:

1st Year of Augustus to 1st Year of Tiberius
-42 BC + 57 Years = 15 AD

1st Year of Tiberius to His 15th Year
15 AD + 15 Years = 30 AD

Lol, and? So what's the problem?

However the error I see in your figures is that counting inclusive from 15AD brings you through 29AD. Didn't you say you were not sure I knew how to count? Why are you counting 15 through 30 inclusive as 15 years instead of 16 years?

Get a year calendar, lay it out on your table or desk, and count out the days using any month of the year except February, from the 15th to the 30th inclusive, and see how many days that is. The same is true with years: seriously, I'm not pulling your leg, it's the truth no matter how much it may hurt. Take the same finger you are using here to point at me and use it to point at 15 days of a month beginning with the 15th in any month having at least thirty days: when you start at day 15, counting day 15, and count 15 days, your happy-go-lucky pointer finger will land on day 29.

From the official historical records we see that your wild imaginations are proven false concerning the fabled 3.5 Years between Luke 3:2 & 21...smh...

Okay, so you believe your interpretations of "official historical records" over and above the scripture: that's nothing new to me, you already proved that in your blogs where you destroy every genealogy and then claim you are following the Septuagint after clipping out statements and years even from the Septuagint which you do not wish to accept. There isn't any one text that actually supports your theories without you taking out your Marcion theology scissors and splicing yourself into the text.