Date of Christ's Crucifixation

[Humble Penny]

Gentleman let's look at our current year:

2022 AD

If I asked you how many years are there from 1 AD to 2022 AD you would easily answer 2,021 Years from our current year but 2,022 Years by inclusive reckoning.

To this I would ask the question:

If it is so easy to determine our AD dates this way then why do we follow different rules for our BC dates?

Sound reason and logic would dictate that it doesn't matter which of these creation dates you use:

-5470 BC (Septuagint/LXX)
-4004 BC (Masoretic Text/MT)
-3761 BC (Hillel II)

Christ would be born on 0 BC/1 AD. Why? Because the above dates show you how many years there are before his birth. Yet it seems those who support a supposed -4 BC date for the birth of Christ failed to see that you in effect pushed backed your date of creation by 4 Years: therefore Christ again would be born on 0 BC.

If we are going to be logically consistent then we cannot count our AD and BC dates differently from one another. That would be like us being merchants and using two different systems of weights and measures when dealing with customers in order to make more profit, or simply cut someone out of a fair bargain.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Agree the Wednesday crucifixion requires three Sabbaths in a row, Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Friday being a normal day would have allowed the woman to go back to the grave, which they did not until Sunday morning. Therefore Wednesday is to early.

I don't accept that as a strong enough argument. They had to buy and prepare the spices. If Thursday was a High Day, they may have needed Friday--a break between the two Sabbaths--to properly prepare the spices for anointing. I'm not familiar with the ancient Jewish practice so I don't know how long such a preparation takes (if anyone knows perhaps they can shed light on this), but it could have required all day, which caused a delay to the tomb. Your argument is more speculative and, quite frankly, impossible to prove. Likewise, m explanation is also speculative and impossible to prove. So I don't count this as a strong enough argument. We know that Christ was indeed already risen on Sunday morning. Three days and three nights in the tomb, literally means, three days and three nights in the tomb, making it a Wednesday crucifixion.

Wed. Night - 1
Thursday - 1
Thursday Night - 2
Friday - 2
Friday Night - 3
Saturday - 3

He would have rose from the grave around 3pm, Saturday. Pushing it a day later doesn't make sense. Christ had already been resurrected when the women came to the tomb. The gospels recount that it was just after sunrise; at dawn; and while it was still dark on the first day of the week. The gospels were written by Jews, so the first day of the week would mean Sunday. As Saturday, Sabbath was the 7th day to them.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

@Humble Penny

Forgive me, I know I'm not the brightest bulb in the candle*, but I don't really understand the point you're trying to make.

*And yes, I purposely destroyed that idiom.

 

[Humble Penny]

@Humble Penny

Forgive me, I know I'm not the brightest bulb in the candle*, but I don't really understand the point you're trying to make.

*And yes, I purposely destroyed that idiom.

Lol that was pretty funny. But to be plain my main question is why do we use a different mode of counting when it comes to the birth of Christ and His death but we don't use the same rules for other important historical figures

For example Julius Caesar was 55 Years old when he died around -45 BC. Some simple arithmetic tells you:

Death of Julius Caesar to Birth
-45 BC - 55 Years = -100 BC

No one would argue this. But let's date his birth differently by creating a system called Anno Caesarum "Year of the Caesars". This system counts all of the years before the beginning of Julio Claudian dynasty as Before Caesar (BC) and all of the years from Julius Caesar to the present year as Year of the Caesars (AC). Now to finalize this dating system let us begin with the traditional date for the founding of Rome and count the years to the birth of Julius Caesar:

Anno Domini System
Romulus to Birth of Julius Caesar
-753 BC + 708 Years = -45 BC

Therefore we know that there are 708 Years from the founding of Rome to the birth of Julius Caesar. From here we now have a precise date for our new Anno Caesarum dating system:

Anno Caesarum System
Romulus to Birth of Julius Caesar
-708 BC +708 Years = 0 BC/1 AC

Seeing that the birth of Julius Caesar may be easily reckoned this way why do we perform such arithmetical nonsense in regards to the birth of Christ?

Anno Domini System
Adam to Birth of Christ
-4004 BC + 4,000 Years = -4 BC

Now let's use myself and my father as another practical example. My father is 59 years old and I am 34 years old therefore...

Current Year to Humble Penny's Birth
59 Years - 34 Years = 25 Years
2022 AD - 34 Years = 1988 AD

Therefore my father was 25 Years old when he begat me. This means we can also pinpoint my father's birth and set a "Before Humble Penny" date (BHP)...

Humble Penny's Birth to Dad's Birth
25 Years - 25 Years = 0 Years
1988 AD - 25 Years = 1963 AD

So we have my birth date set to -25 BHP: which means I'd be born 25 Years from the birth of my dad in the year 1963 AD. Let's take it one step further and include my son in the equation who will turn 9 later this year:

Current Year to Birth of Humble Penny's Son
2022 AD - 9 Years = 2013 AD

So my son would've been born in my 25th Year and the 50th Year of my father in the year 2013 AD.

What I've just demonstrated is the exact way you reckon the years from Adam to the Flood, and so on all the way up to Christ. Therefore there is no need for astronomical dates when determining the birth years of children or the reigns of kings and governments, nor the birth of our Saviour Christ.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

@Humble Penny

Phew! You gotta give me time to reread that about a dozen times. Ha ha. Much learning might drive me mad.

I'm taking for granted that our calendar is relatively accurate minus 10-14 days because of the switch from Julian to Gregorian. NASA has astronomical data according to our calendar, so while it's imperfect, I still trust its use.

I'm not a chronologist nor have I ever spent time studying other calendars, so I'm not aware of all the inaccuracies in dating.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Oh, I see you have blog posts? I will blue-skadoo over there and start reading through those as well.

 

[Humble Penny]

@Humble Penny

Phew! You gotta give me time to reread that about a dozen times. Ha ha. Much learning might drive me mad.

I'm taking for granted that our calendar is relatively accurate minus 10-14 days because of the switch from Julian to Gregorian. NASA has astronomical data according to our calendar, so while it's imperfect, I still trust its use.

I'm not a chronologist nor have I ever spent time studying other calendars, so I'm not aware of all the inaccuracies in dating.

Lol you almost made me choke on my omelette with that reply ha ha. Take all the time you need.

What I've shown is that as a chronologist you don't need any knowledge of astronomy or mathematics to do your work properly. You simply need to know the current year an event happened and correlate that date with neighboring dates to confirm the accuracy of it. This would require investigating the official archives, but if one cannot do that then they must consult the historians living closest to the times of those events. In the end you play connect the dots to fill in the gaps until you get your picture.

 

[Humble Penny]

Lol that was pretty funny. But to be plain my main question is why do we use a different mode of counting when it comes to the birth of Christ and His death but we don't use the same rules for other important historical figures

For example Julius Caesar was 55 Years old when he died around -45 BC. Some simple arithmetic tells you:

Death of Julius Caesar to Birth
-45 BC - 55 Years = -100 BC

No one would argue this. But let's date his birth differently by creating a system called Anno Caesarum "Year of the Caesars". This system counts all of the years before the beginning of Julio Claudian dynasty as Before Caesar (BC) and all of the years from Julius Caesar to the present year as Year of the Caesars (AC). Now to finalize this dating system let us begin with the traditional date for the founding of Rome and count the years to the birth of Julius Caesar:

Anno Domini System
Romulus to Birth of Julius Caesar
-753 BC + 708 Years = -45 BC

Therefore we know that there are 708 Years from the founding of Rome to the birth of Julius Caesar. From here we now have a precise date for our new Anno Caesarum dating system:

Anno Caesarum System
Romulus to Birth of Julius Caesar
-708 BC +708 Years = 0 BC/1 AC

Seeing that the birth of Julius Caesar may be easily reckoned this way why do we perform such arithmetical nonsense in regards to the birth of Christ?

Anno Domini System
Adam to Birth of Christ
-4004 BC + 4,000 Years = -4 BC

Now let's use myself and my father as another practical example. My father is 59 years old and I am 34 years old therefore...

Current Year to Humble Penny's Birth
59 Years - 34 Years = 25 Years
2022 AD - 34 Years = 1988 AD

Therefore my father was 25 Years old when he begat me. This means we can also pinpoint my father's birth and set a "Before Humble Penny" date (BHP)...

Humble Penny's Birth to Dad's Birth
25 Years - 25 Years = 0 Years
1988 AD - 25 Years = 1963 AD

So we have my birth date set to -25 BHP: which means I'd be born 25 Years from the birth of my dad in the year 1963 AD. Let's take it one step further and include my son in the equation who will turn 9 later this year:

Current Year to Birth of Humble Penny's Son
2022 AD - 9 Years = 2013 AD

So my son would've been born in my 25th Year and the 50th Year of my father in the year 2013 AD.

What I've just demonstrated is the exact way you reckon the years from Adam to the Flood, and so on all the way up to Christ. Therefore there is no need for astronomical dates when determining the birth years of children or the reigns of kings and governments, nor the birth of our Saviour Christ.

@Humble Penny

Phew! You gotta give me time to reread that about a dozen times. Ha ha. Much learning might drive me mad.

I'm taking for granted that our calendar is relatively accurate minus 10-14 days because of the switch from Julian to Gregorian. NASA has astronomical data according to our calendar, so while it's imperfect, I still trust its use.

I'm not a chronologist nor have I ever spent time studying other calendars, so I'm not aware of all the inaccuracies in dating.

After giving you reply more consideration I laughed to myself because I have to remember that we in the modern world aren't used to thinking about dates in the way I discussed them in post #25. I take that for granted since I'm used to doing this line of work, and constantly occupied with the way the ancients would date their times.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Quick question: are you stating that we take 0 BC / 1 AD as an affirmative date of Christ's birth? And if you're not saying that, then let me just pour through your blog posts. I won't burden you with any more explanations if you've got it already pre-written.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

After giving you reply more consideration I laughed to myself because I have to remember that we in the modern world aren't used to thinking about dates in the way I discussed them in post #25. I take that for granted since I'm used to doing this line of work, and constantly occupied with the way the ancients would date their times.

Lol. It's fine. I sort of understood what you meant, but it sure made my eyes dizzy for a moment. Do you work in a college or university?

 

[Humble Penny]

Quick question: are you stating that we take 0 BC / 1 AD as an affirmative date of Christ's birth? And if you're not saying that, then let me just pour through your blog posts. I won't burden you with any more explanations if you've got it already pre-written.

Yes I am staying we take year 0 BC/1 AD as the birth date of Christ.

Lol. It's fine. I sort of understood what you meant, but it sure made my eyes dizzy for a moment. Do you work in a college or university?

This is all independent work I've done outside of college. I started out thinking I wanted to do business administration, but I found I was bored with that as my love is with the classics.

So since graduating I've been working as a chronologist. My 9a-5p simply pays the bills so I can focus on my real work reading and studying history and chronology.

 

[Humble Penny]

Lol. It's fine. I sort of understood what you meant, but it sure made my eyes dizzy for a moment. Do you work in a college or university?

Yes I am staying we take year 0 BC/1 AD as the birth date of Christ.

This is all independent work I've done outside of college. I started out thinking I wanted to do business administration, but I found I was bored with that as my love is with the classics.

So since graduating I've been working as a chronologist. My 9a-5p simply pays the bills so I can focus on my real work reading and studying history and chronology.

The work I do as a chronologist is not paid for so 100% Percent of my work comes out of my pocket. It's not always the most exciting line of work, but it's work I do enjoy. And it's been only recently that I began to practice talking with people in the public about my work when they ask me what I do. Most walk away stunned that our dates are centered around knowing the birth and death of Christ and rooted in the Bible.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Yes I am staying we take year 0 BC/1 AD as the birth date of Christ.

Okay. This is where I think I was getting hung up and confused because I don't accept 0BC / 1 AD as accurate dating. But I will be reviewing your work.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

The work I do as a chronologist is not paid for so 100% Percent of my work comes out of my pocket. It's not always the most exciting line of work, but it's work I do enjoy it. And it's been only recently that I began to practice talking with people in the public about my work when they ask me what I do. Most walk away stunned that our dates are centered around knowing the birth and death of Christ and rooted in the Bible.

Yeah my job is also to pay bills. Lol. But it's nice being able to be independent researcher as I feel college/university is a bit stuck in one narrative. So I can appreciate all the work you do into this as an independent researcher myself.

 

[Humble Penny]

Yeah my job is also to pay bills. Lol. But it's nice being able to be independent researcher as I feel college/university is a bit stuck in one narrative. So I can appreciate all the work you do into this as an independent researcher myself.

100% Percent agree with you on the one-sided narrative Isaac! Glad you can see value in my work.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread is closed for staff review.


​

 

[tampasteve]

ADMIN HAT ON

This thread has had a cleaning. please note the OP is about the YEAR, not days. Please stay on topic.

The thread is now open again.

ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[Christian Gedge]

I would like to offer five reasons starting with Astronomical Data.

My second reason for the AD30 date is found in Luke's information regarding the ministry of John the Baptist. He says:

"In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar - when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene - during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." (Luke 3:1-3)​

So when was the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar? If we can ascertain that, all that remains to do is add 3½ years (the period of Jesus ministry from his baptism by John) and we arrive at the date of the cross.

Tiberius became sole emperor on the death of his adoptive father, Augustus. (Aug 19, AD 14) However, it is a well known fact that he had become co-regent with his ailing father two years beforehand in AD 12. He was made supreme military commander over Caesar's armies and provinces in that year. Ancient coins from Antioch dated AD 12 display the head of Tiberius and documents attest to his reign being fully in force from then. Thus, the inauguration in AD 14 as emperor was only a formalisation of a reign which had begun two years earlier.

Therefore, the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius would make it AD 26-27 correlating with the start of Christ's ministry and supporting the AD 30 date as the most likely date of his crucifixion.

 

[Humble Penny]

My second reason for the AD30 date is found in Luke's information regarding the ministry of John the Baptist. He says:

"In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar - when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene - during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." (Luke 3:1-3)​

So when was the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar? If we can ascertain that, all that remains to do is add 3½ years (the period of Jesus ministry from his baptism by John) and we arrive at the date of the cross.

Tiberius became sole emperor on the death of his adoptive father, Augustus. (Aug 19, AD 14) However, it is a well known fact that he had become co-regent with his ailing father two years beforehand in AD 12. He was made supreme military commander over Caesar's armies and provinces in that year. Ancient coins from Antioch dated AD 12 display the head of Tiberius and documents attest to his reign being fully in force from then. Thus, the inauguration in AD 14 as emperor was only a formalisation of a reign which had begun two years earlier.

Therefore, the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius would make it AD 26-27 correlating with the start of Christ's ministry and supporting the AD 30 date as the most likely date of his crucifixion.

Hmmm...can you share this information about the co-regency of Tiberius and Augustus? Tacitus and Josephus clearly state in their narratives that Tiberius didn't come into power until after the death of his adpopted father.

If Tiberius began his reign in 12 AD and Christ died in 30 AD then that would make this the 18th Year of Tiberius instead of his 15th Year as Luke states. And even if we subtracted the two early years from 12 AD that would still make it the 16th Year of Tiberius.

While I don't support a 3 Year or 3.5 Year Ministry, I do see how you are trying to correlate it with the reign of Tiberius Caesar. Still I am not sure how being made military commander would equate to being on the same level as an Emperor. I do recall that there were suspicions surrounding the death of Augustus Caesar being caused by his adopted son Tiberius, who moved his father's wife Livia to dip a poisoned feather in the throat of her husband. This would explain the early appearance of the face of Tiberius on the Antioch coins you mentioned.

 

[Humble Penny]

My second reason for the AD30 date is found in Luke's information regarding the ministry of John the Baptist. He says:

"In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar - when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene - during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." (Luke 3:1-3)​

So when was the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar? If we can ascertain that, all that remains to do is add 3½ years (the period of Jesus ministry from his baptism by John) and we arrive at the date of the cross.

Tiberius became sole emperor on the death of his adoptive father, Augustus. (Aug 19, AD 14) However, it is a well known fact that he had become co-regent with his ailing father two years beforehand in AD 12. He was made supreme military commander over Caesar's armies and provinces in that year. Ancient coins from Antioch dated AD 12 display the head of Tiberius and documents attest to his reign being fully in force from then. Thus, the inauguration in AD 14 as emperor was only a formalisation of a reign which had begun two years earlier.

Therefore, the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius would make it AD 26-27 correlating with the start of Christ's ministry and supporting the AD 30 date as the most likely date of his crucifixion.

I guess one other question I have for you regarding this date brother Gedge is what age do you reckon Christ was when He died on the cross?