Daniel's 70th week

[Al Touthentop]

So I ask the did the Thessalonians received their relief as promised? When the Lord appeared in heaven with blazing fire and with angel?...

When did John the Baptist excavate mountains and fill in valleys?

 

[pasifika]

You seem to be skirting the issue. People cannot flee from a place that's non-existent (Judea). Besides - if this passage means what you interpret it to mean - why would *believers* be fleeing to the mountains? Why would Jesus have given those instructions (and why did He tell people almost 2000 years ago, instruction that didn't apply to them....as you're suggesting). I believe He told the people that actually used the instruction - and our religion exists today because of their faithfulness.

The old testament has all the reference about the mountains of the Lord...revelation 12 tells us a place prepared for the woman(israel) to flee to and away from the serpent reach...

 

[David Kent]

The old testament has all the reference about the mountains of the Lord...revelation 12 tells us a place prepared for the woman(israel) to flee to and away from the serpent reach...

Women in Revelation are churches, The Bride is the true church. The Harlot is the false Church. The woman fleeing from the serpent is the true church.

 

[pasifika]

Where does it say the desolation of Jerusalem comes at the second coming?

I said the desolation end or complete at the second coming of Christ (time of 1260days or 3.5 years )...Read matthew 24, or Luke 21 etc

 

[mkgal1]

The old testament has all the reference about the mountains of the Lord...revelation 12 tells us a place prepared for the woman(israel) to flee to and away from the serpent reach...

You're still not addressing the problems created by your interpretation. What reason could Jesus have in instructing His believers in the future to flee from a non-existent region to the hills. How do people even know how to follow that (going by your interpretation)?

My belief doesn't have that problem. I believe Jesus was speaking directly to the people that believed Him and in following His instruction (fleeing Judea to the hills), we now have Christianity.

 

[mkgal1]

The old testament has all the reference about the mountains of the Lord...revelation 12 tells us a place prepared for the woman(israel) to flee to and away from the serpent reach...

The flight to Pella. That was around 66 AD, when Jesus' faithful followers fled Judea to the hills.

 

[pasifika]

Women Revelation are churches, The Bride is the true church. The Harlot is the false Church. The woman fleeing from the serpent is the true church.

Cannot be the Church, notice the woman give birth to male child and was taken up to God to His throne Rev 12:5 this is definitely Christ the male child...so this cannot be the Church who give birth to Christ and also Christ wife...

 

[mkgal1]

Cannot be the Church, notice the woman give birth to male child and was taken up to God to His throne Rev 12:5 this is definitely Christ the male child...so this cannot be the Church who give birth to Christ and also Christ wife...

The early church began with faithful Jews. It's the faithful remnant of the ancient Israelites.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Luke 21:20 is not about AD 70, because after destruction Jerusalem rebuild again as we see today, but Luke 21:20-28 is events leading to second coming...

They are all about the destruction of Jerusalem. The Jerusalem of today has nothing to do with the Jerusalem of 2000 years ago. It also still has no temple. The temple that was rebuilt in accordance with prophecy was Jesus himself. The physical temple is of no consequence anymore even if it were to be rebuilt. I don't think God will allow another physical temple to be rebuilt but it doesn't matter even if I'm wrong.

John 2
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”

19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

The old testament prophecies about the renewing of the temple were not about the building but about Jesus.

 

[David Kent]

Cannot be the Church, notice the woman give birth to male child and was taken up to God to His throne Rev 12:5 this is definitely Christ the male child...so this cannot be the Church who give birth to Christ and also Christ wife...

The book of Revelation was written to the Seven Churches.(I know that some futurists say they represent Israel) The Seven Churches represent the entire Church,. It was written to the Church and concerns the church, not Israel.

 

[pasifika]

You're still not addressing the problems created by your interpretation. What reason could Jesus have in instructing His believers in the future to flee from a non-existent region to the hills. How do people even know how to follow that (going by your interpretation)?

My belief doesn't have that problem. I believe Jesus was speaking directly to the people that believed Him and in following His instruction (fleeing Judea to the hills), we now have Christianity.

There are lots of things that looks impossible for our understanding...Zachariah 14:5 speaking of the end time event...

Zachariah 14:5,.." you will flee by my mountain Valley for it will extend to Azel. ..

Does the Lord has a mountain? Well maybe only those who will instruct to flee to that particular mountains will know where...

 

[Al Touthentop]

I said the desolation end or complete at the second coming of Christ (time of 1260days or 3.5 years )...Read matthew 24, or Luke 21 etc

Matthew 24 is not about Christ's second coming. It is about his coming in judgement against Jerusalem. It's spoken in grandiose prophetic figures which are not to be taken literally. Though if you read history and the account of Jerusalem's destruction it's remarkable how accurate a prophecy it is. And he did come and accomplish everything he said he would. Matthew 24 is no longer about a future event. At the time he said those words it was about the future but one that was relatively near since he said it would take place before that generation passed.

And the destruction of Jerusalem occurred after the 70 weeks was over. Everything in Daniel's prophecy happened in 490 years (70 weeks) or God is not truthful. He gave a list of things and said it was 'determined' to happen in the time allotted. He didn't use the word 'unless' anywhere in that prophecy. It wasn't an ultimatum and dependent upon people acting a certain way. He said 'it's going to happen' and here's when you start counting the weeks. And then it all happened just like when Jesus said that before that generation passed "all these things must take place." Must. Will. Certainly. He didn't say 2000 or 10000 years in the future but somewhere around 40 years.

And God didn't say to Daniel, 'This will all take place in 490 years unless you look at this list of six things and determine for yourself, because you fail to understand it, that some of it hasn't yet taken place. Then it can happen whenever you decide. Nevermind what I have said about it.'

 

[pasifika]

They are all about the destruction of Jerusalem. The Jerusalem of today has nothing to do with the Jerusalem of 2000 years ago. It also still has no temple. The temple that was rebuilt in accordance with prophecy was Jesus himself. The physical temple is of no consequence anymore even if it were to be rebuilt. I don't think God will allow another physical temple to be rebuilt but it doesn't matter even if I'm wrong.

John 2
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”

19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

The old testament prophecies about the renewing of the temple were not about the building but about Jesus.

Jerusalem has not changed its position on the map, of course the culture, buildings, people etc change but not Jerusalem the place...

I know the temple is Jesus that is what christianity believe..but try and tell that to the Rabbi in Israel that there is no need of a physical temple because Jesus fulfilled the old covenant temple etc...maybe they don't agree with you...
I know they (modern Israel ) will build a temple because they don't recognize Jesus as their Messiah...

As Jesus said to those in Jerusalem in Matthew 23:39..."For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD...
And that day is coming....

 

[Al Touthentop]

There are lots of things that looks impossible for our understanding...Zachariah 14:5 speaking of the end time event...

Zachariah 14:5,.." you will flee by my mountain Valley for it will extend to Azel. ..

Does the Lord has a mountain? Well maybe only those who will instruct to flee to that particular mountains will know where...

Taking a totally unrelated passage and trying to shoehorn it into another place doesn't work. He told the disciples to whom he was speaking with that THEY needed to run into the hills. And that they needed to do this when they saw the armies surrounding the city.

Luke 21
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

This is not the judgement day. It is the day of the destruction of Israel as was prophesied many times by the prophets.

32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

"All these things" includes:

27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.

It might give the impression of his second coming except for one thing. These people are to stand tall after having fled Judea and Jerusalem. Not because they're about to go to heaven, but because the people who will have been persecuting them are getting their just rewards for rejecting Christ and his prophets.

Now, if you don't accept any of this, do you assert that some of the apostles are still alive and waiting to see what Jesus told them to watch out for?

 

[Al Touthentop]

Jerusalem has not changed its position on the map, of course the culture, buildings, people etc change but not Jerusalem the place...

But it has. The city of Jerusalem is no longer the city of God and it ceased to be so when Christ was crucified and resurrected. It became desolate and received God's judgement in AD70.

I know the temple is Jesus that is what christianity believe..but try and tell that to the Rabbi in Israel that there is no need of a physical temple because Jesus fulfilled the old covenant temple etc...maybe they don't agree with you...

Why do I need to care about that?

 

[pasifika]

Matthew 24 is not about Christ's second coming. It is about his coming in judgement against Jerusalem. It's spoken in grandiose prophetic figures which are not to be taken literally. Though if you read history and the account of Jerusalem's destruction it's remarkable how accurate a prophecy it is. And he did come and accomplish everything he said he would. Matthew 24 is no longer about a future event. At the time he said those words it was about the future but one that was relatively near since he said it would take place before that generation passed.

And the destruction of Jerusalem occurred after the 70 weeks was over. Everything in Daniel's prophecy happened in 490 years (70 weeks) or God is not truthful. He gave a list of things and said it was 'determined' to happen in the time allotted. He didn't use the word 'unless' anywhere in that prophecy. It wasn't an ultimatum and dependent upon people acting a certain way. He said 'it's going to happen' and here's when you start counting the weeks. And then it all happened just like when Jesus said that before that generation passed "all these things must take place." Must. Will. Certainly. He didn't say 2000 or 10000 years in the future but somewhere around 40 years.

And God didn't say to Daniel, 'This will all take place in 490 years unless you look at this list of six things and determine for yourself, because you fail to understand it, that some of it hasn't yet taken place. Then it can happen whenever you decide. Nevermind what I have said about it.'

Hello Christ came first to save His people and is coming back to take those who are His...

Judgement is by God the Father...

 

[Al Touthentop]

Hello Christ came first to save His people and is coming back to take those who are His...

At the resurrection. Matthew 24 is not about the resurrection.

 

[pasifika]

Taking a totally unrelated passage and trying to shoehorn it into another place doesn't work. He told the disciples to whom he was speaking with that THEY needed to run into the hills. And that they needed to do this when they saw the armies surrounding the city.

Luke 21
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

This is not the judgement day. It is the day of the destruction of Israel as was prophesied many times by the prophets.

32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

"All these things" includes:

27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.

It might give the impression of his second coming except for one thing. These people are to stand tall after having fled Judea and Jerusalem. Not because they're about to go to heaven, but because the people who will have been persecuting them are getting their just rewards for rejecting Christ and his prophets.

Now, if you don't accept any of this, do you assert that some of the apostles are still alive and waiting to see what Jesus told them to watch out for?

So, is there any historical reference to support verse 27..that they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds...
If you claim that event happen during destruction of Jerusalem AD 70. ..

If Jesus was speaking to the apostles regarding future events it is not only for them(apostles ) but also for those who live in that particular time where those events will take place...

 

[pasifika]

At the resurrection. Matthew 24 is not about the resurrection.

Matthew 24 is not about the resurrection is about the second coming...

Unless you can show that there are two or more coming of Jesus after the resurrection from Scripture...

 

[pasifika]

But it has. The city of Jerusalem is no longer the city of God and it ceased to be so when Christ was crucified and resurrected. It became desolate and received God's judgement in AD70.



Why do I need to care about that?

The earthly Jerusalem has never been the city of God...Zion or mount zion is used for Jerusalem..the Jerusalem above not the earthly one. ...Zion and Jerusalem sometimes use in reference to the church

• Zion=place " Holy Place"
• Jerusalem = real Jerusalem (Jerusalem above) " Holy City", Church etc
• Israel= Holy Nation...

Maybe another thread for this