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Daniel's 70 Weeks

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Hoonbaba, Apr 19, 2002.

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  1. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Daniel Chapter 9:24-27

    v.24 "Weeks" here is actually "sevens." Some of the six things prophesied have already happened, and others are in the future. Jesus made an end of transgressions and sins and reconciled man to God when He sacrificed Himself on the cross.

    The kingdom of everlasting righteousness hasn't yet come to power, all the visions and prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled; so the book cannot yet be closed and sealed. The "most Holy" has yet to be anointed.

    The Old Testament prophets didn't see the two aspects of the coming of the Messiah. Though they faithfully wrote as God directed them, they couldn't reconcile the seeming diversities concerning the Messiah (Ephesians 3:3-5).

    When Jesus read the Scriptures in Isaiah, He stopped halfway through the prophecy, because the first half concerned only His first coming (Isaiah 61:1-4, Luke 4:16-21).

    v.25 The angel foretells of the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem given by King Artaxerxes on March 14, 445 B.C. The prophecy was based on a Babalonian 360-day calendar. 483 years, 360 each is 173,880 days after March 14, 445 B.C., that day being April 6, 32 A.D. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on that day, April 6, 32 A.D. (Psalm 118:22-26, Luke 19:28-44, Romans 8:22,23, Zechariah 9:9).

    v.26 The Messiah was to be "cut off" without receiving His share of the kingdom . The "prince" of Rome spoken of here was Caesar Nero. He ordered his general, Titus, to destroy Jerusalem. The soldiers tore the city down stone by stone to the ground. The end of the nation was to come with a dispersion of the Jews. The Jews were followed by wars and desolations wherever they went.

    v.27 The seventieth seven will begin when the Antichrist makes a covenant with Israel for a 7-year period (Isaiah 28:14-17). There are several hints in the Bible that tie Caesar Nero to the Antichrist. It appears that the same demon that controlled Nero will enter the European leader who will arise from the ten nations, and he will be the Antichrist (Revelation 17:8-11, 13:17-18).
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    When you ask "see anything here", If by "here", you mean "the Bible", then yes I do.

    All prophetic time spans in scripture run consecutive. Every one, without fail, always.

    For example:

    The 40days & nights of rain were consecutive,
    the 3 days Jesus was in the tomb were consecutive,
    the 40 years of wandering in the desert were consecutive,
    the 70 years of babylonian captivity ran consecutive.

    Lets use that last example for a moment, and apply the "gap" theory and see how far we get.

    How would the Jews have felt if God told them that they would be in captivity in Babylon for 70 years, and after the 71st year passed, God said "Hey, I never said they'd be 70 'consecutive' years", the 70th year is actually 2000 years away. How would the Jews have understood the character and nature of God after that? that He lied? that He can not be trusted? that He makes empty promises?

    Our God is not some sleazy lawyer crafting loopholes and escape clauses. He speaks to humans in human terms so humans can understand him, especially when it concerns time. When God attaches a time statement to a prophesy it is always given to be understood by how time relates to man, and not how time relates to God.

    Given this unwavering scriptural precident, The only conclusion for the serious expositor is that Daniels 70 "weeks" ran consecutive, 1-70, one immediatly after another, no different from every other prophetic time span in scripture.

    Peace,
    P70
     
  3. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Jesus Christ was "cut off" (crucified) during week 70. After 69 completed weeks Jesus was cut off. This places Christ's crucifixion IN week 70 -- "in the midst of the week."

    The 70 weeks are complete, just like the original post says.


    Mandy, the bible does not permit people to place gaps where ever they feel works for their system. Daniel never knew about any gap and neither did Jesus Christ who died DURING week 70.

    Next, you may not know it but your interpretation comes from Sir Robert Anderson of the 1800s who fudged numbers to suit his false teaching.

    Mistakenly chosing 445-444 BC, he counted 483 years and realized that it came out to around 38-39 AD. Doh! So what he did was invented a year of short days so he could scrunch it all into a crucifixion date of 33AD. Doh! There is no such year that any Jew had ever heard of and Jesus didn't die in 33 AD! He died in AD30!

    Well, the whole thing was a sham and even many dispensationalists are now abandoning the system. The historic Christian teaching on the 490 years is that they start at 457 and that Christ was crucifed during week 70.

    God bless,
    GW
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
  5. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    GW,

    You wrote: Jesus didn't die in 33 AD! He died in AD30!

    Not according to most New Testament historians writing today. Jack Finegan is widely recognized as the world's foremost authority on Bible chronology. His 426 page "Handbook of Biblical Chronology" (1999) tells us that Jesus died in AD 33, and it thoroughly explains why that is the only year that fits all the facts of scripture and history. "Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels" (1992) has a long and thoroughly convincing article which also tells us that Christ must have died in AD 33. AD 33 is also the date cited in many other reference works I can here recommend.

    Also your 457 date for the start of the "70 weeks" is a bad choice, in my opinion. I'll tell you why if you are interested.
     
  6. Josiah

    Josiah Super suction ears away!

    312
    +1
    Hello Spongebob! :wave: :D

    I see the point your trying to make here. But, let's use the following goofy little example to make a case:

    If I were able to go back in time and tell people that there will be, oh, let's say 50 years of war for the near future. It would be possible for me to mean by that, 50 consecutive years of war OR various time periods broken out into segments totaling 50 years. One war might last 10 years, another 5, another 20, etc. etc.

    My point is that it's possible for the last "seven" spoken of to be a separate 7 year event, like, maybe a 7-year period of tribulation such as the world has never seen or will ever see again?

    Daniel 9:27
    He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
     
  7. Josiah

    Josiah Super suction ears away!

    312
    +1
    Daniel 9
    26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. [6] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [7] In the middle of the 'seven' [8] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

    Howdy GW!

    Well, what happened to the seven-year covenant and the abomination that causes desolation? (this has not happened. The first ATCD referred to Antiochus Epiphanes' exploits...this reference was after that)

    Also, it clearly states here that after 62 sevens the anointed one will be cut off...How do you come up with Christ being crucified in the 70th week?
     
  8. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    Josiah, You asked: How do you come up with Christ being crucified in the 70th week?

    I'll tell you how I do. And I'll also explain how Titus and the Roman armies which he led fulfilled the abomination that caused the desolation of Jerusalem. If you are a history buff you will also learn some very interesting little known information about the reign of Artaxerxes.

    I believe that Daniel's "70 Weeks" began to run when Nehemiah ordered the work to begin on the rebuilding of Jerusalem's wall after Artaxerxes issued a decree in his 20th year which permitted Nehemiah to return to Jerusalem to rebuild that Holy City. (Neh. 2)

    Some see a problem with this understanding. For Daniel's "Seventy Weeks" are widely understood to refer to a period of 490 years, and all historians now assure us that Artaxerxes' 20th year of ruling Persia took place in 445 BC. And 490 years after 445 BC brings us to 46 AD, which was quite a few years after the death of Christ.

    How then can I understand that Artaxerxes' decree in his 20th year as king has anything to do with Daniel's "Seventy Weeks" prophecy? Because I am convinced that Nehemiah did not return to Jerusalem and give his command to begin rebuilding that city until the year 440 BC, even though the Bible tells us that Nehemiah had been granted permission by Artaxerxes to issue such a command in Artaxerxes' 20th year as king of Persia, which historians assure us took place in 445 BC. (Neh. 1:1-6)

    I believe this because the first century Jewish historian, Josephus, tells us that Nehemiah "came to Jerusalem" not "in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes" as the Bible seems to say, but in his "twenty and fifth year." (Ant. XI, 5, 7) The fact is that the Bible does not actually say that Nehemiah returned to Jerusalem in Artaxerxes' 20th year. It only tells us that Artaxerxes then gave Nehemiah permission to do so. While Josephus, on the other hand, tells us of the time that Nehemiah actually "came to Jerusalem." (It is also possible that Nehemiah reckoned the reign of Artaxerxes in a substantially different manner than historians do today and Josephus did in his day. I'll explain this later.)

    Concerning this matter, in his book, "History Of Israel" (third edition, 1981, pg. 381) John Bright tells us, "The Bible gives us the impression that Nehemiah set out at once, accompanied by a military escort (Neh.2:9). But Josephus (Ant. XI, 5, 7), who follows the Septuagint text, the first part of which is preserved in 1 Esdres, places his arrival only in 440. Though assurance is impossible, this may be correct. If Nehemiah first went to Babylon and collected Jews to accompany him, as Josephus has it, and then having presented his credentials to the satrap of Abah-nahara, attended to the procurement of building materials before proceeding to Jerusalem, as he possibly did since work was begun soon after his arrival, the date is not unreasonable."

    Some who harmonize the accounts of Nehemiah and Josephus in this way point out that it took Solomon nearly four years to procure similar kinds of building materials before he was able to begin building the Temple. (2 Chr. chapters 1 and 2 and chapter 3, verses 1 and 2) And Solomon was much better funded than Nehemiah, and unlike Nehemiah, Solomon was able to conscript all the labor he needed for his building project, rather than having to spend time finding volunteers.

    Other scholars agree with Bright's assessment of Josephus' probable accuracy in this matter. For instance, Sigmund Mowinckel, a highly regarded Scandinavian Bible scholar, believes that Josephus used a separate Greek version of Nehemiah that in several respects differed from that preserved in the LXX. He argues that Josephus' chronological information on the Persian kings did not result from his own calculations, or from any mistakes some say he must have made in this matter. Mowinckel argues that Josephus must have been quoting from a now lost Greek version of Nehemiah. On Josephus' statement about the 25th year of Artaxerxes, Mowinckel maintains that Josephus' figures are most likely the original ones. He writes, "In my opinion the balance [of evidence] is in favor of [the figure] '25'." (Vol. 3, p.45 of Studien zu dem Buche Ezra-Nehema, Vols. 1-3, Oslo, 1964)

    But how does the fact that Nehemiah did not give his order to begin rebuilding Jerusalem until 440 BC help us to make sense of Daniel's "Seventy Weeks" prophecy? As most students of Bible prophecy know, Daniel's "seventy weeks" are generally understood as referring to seventy weeks of years (seventy sets of seven years) totaling a period of 490 solar years. But the Jews used a lunar calendar! Their years were lunar years, not solar years. So a week of years to the Jews would have meant seven lunar years. And seventy weeks of years to the Jews would have meant 490 lunar years, not 490 solar years.

    At the time of Daniel, on average about every three years, the Jews added an extra month to the end of their lunar calendars to make sure that they never fell too far out of sync with the solar year. But at the time Daniel wrote his "Seventy Weeks" prophecy the Jews had no set system of doing so. When they decided that it was time to add an extra month to their calendars they called this extra month "second Adar." However, the fact that they then sometimes added an "intercalary" month to their lunar calendars does not change the fact that, to the Jews, a "year" normally meant 354 days. For that is the number of days which one of their calendars most often contained. Their calendars usually consisted of six 29 day months and six 30 day months. So, to the Jews who lived at the time Daniel wrote his "Seventy Weeks" prophecy, a “year” would have been understood to mean a lunar year, and a "week" of years (literally a “seven” of years) would have been understood to mean seven lunar years. And “seventy weeks” of years would have been understood to mean 490 lunar years, none of which were then either automatically or routinely solar-adjusted.

    Now, since one lunar year contains 354.367 days, 490 lunar years contain 173,639.83 days. And 173,639.83 days divided by 365.2425 (the number of days in a solar year) equal 475.40 solar years. With these things in mind, I have come to conclusion that Daniel's "seventy weeks" were a period of 475.4 years which ran from 440 BC to 36 AD. I believe those 475.4 years began at the time Nehemiah gave his "commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" (Dan. 9:25 KJV; Neh. 2:17,18). And I believe those 475.4 years ended at the time God acted to "confirm the [new] covenant with many" by pouring His Holy Spirit out on Gentiles for the first time (Dan. 9:27 KJV; Acts 10). I believe the "many" here referred to were the "many nations" God promised Abraham that he would one day become the father of. (Gen. 17:4)

    As anyone who has thoroughly studied the history of this prophecy's interpretation knows, this is by no means a new idea or a novel one. In the year 221 AD Julius Africanus in his work entitled "Chronographia" argued that the 490 years were lunar years of 354 days each, which he converted into 475 solar years. He counted them from the 20th year of Artaxerxes, which he correctly dated to the 4th year of the 83rd Olympiad (=445/444 BC). From this date, he said, to "the 16th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (30/31 AD, his date for the death of Christ), there are reckoned 475 years, which take 490 according to the Hebrew numeration, as they measure the years by the course of the moon; so that, as is easy to show, their year consists of 354 days, while the solar year has 365 1/4 days." (Africanus' Chronographia XVI, 3 translated in The Ante-Nicence fathers, Vol. VI ed. A. Roberts & J. Donaldson, p. 135) Many later expositors followed Africanus in doing this.

    I believe that the facts of history, together with a knowledge that the Jews used a lunar calendar, combine to show that the Messiah (meaning "anointed one") was first presented to Israel in the year 29 AD by John the baptist, after sixty-nine weeks of lunar years had passed, when John anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the waters of his baptism in "the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar." (Luke 3:1,21). At that time Jesus Christ was "cut off" from his people and, quite literally, "had nothing for himself." (Dan. 9:26) For he then began a forty day long fast in the wilderness. Then, after three and a half years, in the middle of Daniel's seventieth week, in the spring of 33 AD, Christ's sacrificial death brought an end to the Jewish system of sacrificial offerings. (Dan. 9:27) Finally, three and a half years later, at the end of Daniel's "Seventy Weeks," in the early fall of 36 AD, Christ "confirmed a covenant with many" (Dan. 9:27) when he, for the first time, poured out his Holy Spirit on non-Jewish people. (Acts 10)

    Doing so confirmed the fact that God, from that time forward, would give everyone who put their faith in Jesus Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, complete forgiveness of their sins and eternal life. With this fact in mind, the good news of what Jesus Christ had done for mankind then began to be preached to all people on earth, just as Christ said that it would be. (Math. 24:14)

    There is another solution to this ancient puzzle that also fits all the facts of history. This solution eliminates the problem of Nehemiah taking five years to get to Jerusalem, which some people have a hard time accepting. Historians tell us that Artaxerxes did not gain legal control of Persia's throne until six years after the assassination of his father Xerxes. Because he did not, it is very possible that Nehemiah did not count the first six years of Artaxerxes' reign during which its legality was being contested. Those who have thoroughly studied the way in which Bible writers reckoned the reigns of Israel's and Judah's kings tell us that they apparently employed this "legal count" system of reckoning.

    If this is true, then when Nehemiah referred to Artaxerxes' 20th year he would have been referring to the same year Josephus referred to when he told us Nehemiah came to Jerusalem in Artaxerxes' 25th year, 440 BC.

    The historical information which strongly suggests that Nehemiah very likely employed this "legal count" system of reckoning is contained in the works of several ancient historians. I'll here give you a condensed version of it.

    Artaxerxes came to the throne of Persia in August of 465 BC following the murder of his father Xerxes. To gain the throne for himself Artaxerxes and his supporters, the real murderers, blamed Xerxes' murder on the rightful heir to the throne, Artaxerxes' older brother crown prince Darius. They then had Darius unjustly executed. For the next six years Artaxerxes' legal right to rule Persia was hotly disputed. Why? Because ancient Persia was not a "banana republic" in which anyone willing to murder their country's head of state with the support of several armed friends had just as much a legal right to run their country's government as anyone else did. Ancient Persia was then governed by a hereditary monarchy. In that monarchy, upon the death of a king, the right to rule legally passed from a father to his first born son. If that first born son was, for some reason, legally disqualified from becoming king, the right to rule then passed to the king's next oldest son. If a king had no son who was legally qualified to inherit the throne, upon his death the right to rule passed to his oldest brother.

    Following king Xerxes' murder and the execution of crown prince Darius, Artaxerxes' older brother Hyspases was legally next in line to inherit Persia's throne. However, Hyspases was then away governing the Persian Provence of Bactria. Because he was, Artaxerxes was able to sit on his father's throne. It is said that for the next few years Hyspases rightly maintained that he held the legal right to rule Persia. Sometime during the first few years of Artaerxes' legally disputed reign as king, he and his older brother Hyspases met on the field of battle to resolve this issue, and some others. In Artaxerxes' effort to suppress what historians call "the Bactrian revolt," he then killed his older brother Hyspases. However, when Artaxerxes killed Hyspases he did nothing to remove the cloud of illegitimacy that then hung over his rulership of Persia. If anything, he only darkened that cloud. For a son or a brother of a king who killed the king was not legally allowed to inherit the kingdom from the king he had killed. So, at the time Artaxerxes killed Hyspases, the right to rule Persia legally passed to Xerxes full brother, Achamenes, who was then away governing Egypt.

    It was not until the year 459 BC that Artaxerxes finally gained the legal right to rule the Persian empire, an empire he had been illegitimately ruling since 465 BC. For it was in that year that Artaxerxes' uncle Achamenes was killed in a battle in Egypt. It was only at that time, in 459 BC, that Artaxerxes was finally able to legally wear the crown of the king of Persia.

    Nehemiah serving at the King's court would have been aware of these legal matters which put the legality of the first six years of Artaxerxes' reign in question. If Nehemiah, like other Bible writers who recorded chronological information, did not count years of a king's rule in which their right to rule was legally in question, he would have counted 459 BC as Artaxerxes' first year as Persia's king. And if Nehemiah counted 459 BC as Artaxerxes' first year, he would have counted 440 as Artaxerxes' 20th year.

    In other words, we have strong reason to believe that Nehemiah reckoned the reign of Artaxerxes differently than the way in which it was then commonly reckoned, the way in which Josephus' sources reckoned it, and the way in which it is commonly reckoned today. When Nehemiah wrote of Artaxerxes' "20th year" it appears likely that he was not referring to the year 445 BC, as has long been thought, but to 440 BC, just as Josephus clearly was when he told us that Nehemiah came to Jerusalem in Artaxerxes' "25th year."

    And sixty-nine "sevens" of years (483 lunar years) after 440 brings us to AD 29, the year Jesus became the Messiah.
     
  9. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    My verse by verse commentary of Dan. 9:24-27 (NAS) is [in brackets.]

    24 "Seventy weeks [490 lunar years] have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
    25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree ["from the going forth of the commandment" - KJV] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem [Nehemiah's on site order to begin rebuilding Jerusalem's wall, upon his return to Jerusalem in Artaxerxes' 25th year, as per Josephus, which historians identify for us as 440 BC] until Messiah the Prince [Jesus Christ] there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks [7 x 7 lunar years + 62 x 7 lunar years = 483 lunar years. 483 lunar years from 440 BC = 29 AD, which was "the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar," in which year Jesus was baptized]; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. [The first "seven weeks" - 49 lunar years - ran from July of 440 BC until January of 392 BC, during which time the city of Jerusalem was completely rebuilt, despite great opposition from neighboring nations.]
    26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing [Following Christ's baptism he cut himself off from all human contact while he literally "had nothing," as he then fasted in the wilderness for forty days.], and the people [Rome's armies] of the prince who is to come [General Titus, the son of the Roman Emperor Vespasian, thus a "prince"] will destroy the city and the sanctuary [Rome's destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple in 70 AD]. And its end will come with a flood [the hoards of soldiers who then descended upon the city]; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. [All of the words in verse 26, following its reference to "the Messiah" being cut off and having nothing, should be read parenthetically. For they refer to events which would occur 30 - 34 years after the "seventy weeks" came to an end.]
    27 "And he [the Messiah] will make a firm covenant with the many ["confirm a covenant" - NIV - referring to the "New Covenant" which was established by the death of Christ and confirmed with "many" by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the gentiles, as recorded in Acts chapter 10. Romans 15:8-12 tells us that the covenant promises which Christ "confirmed" were those God made to the patriarchs concerning the Gentiles. The "many" here referred to are all the nations of the earth, Jews and Gentiles. God told Abraham, in Gen. 17:4, that he would become the father of "many nations."] for [The word "for" here is absent from the Hebrew. I believe the context strongly suggests that the word "after" should instead be here inserted.] one week [at the end of the 70th "week" which ended in 36 AD], but in the middle of the week [again the 70th "week," the middle of which was the spring of 33 AD] he [the Messiah] will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering [which Jesus Christ's sacrificial death brought an end to]; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate [In Mark 13:14 and its parallel passage, Luke 21:20, Jesus himself clearly identified the "abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" as the "armies" which he said would "surround Jerusalem" prior to its destruction in 70 AD.], even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." [Jerusalem's desolator, General Titus, became Emperor of Rome in 79 AD. Within months Mount Vesuvius erupted burying Pompeii. The following year, 80 AD, a fire destroyed much of Rome. Titus uttering "the fire has ruined me" was forced to sell or strip all of his imperial estates to hasten Rome's recovery. Then, in the fire's wake, one of the worst plagues on record descended upon Italy. Finally, on September 1, 81 AD, for reasons unknown, Titus fell painfully ill and died, only two years after gaining Rome's throne.]
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    A Christian:

    How does your theory change the counting of the 70 years in Babylonian exile?

    It shortens it considerably, right? If Daniel's years get scrunched (not that I accept that they do) then Jeremiah's years get scrunched. Daniel was counting Jeremiah's 70 years. Did he turn around and implement a new calendar system for his own 490 years?

    to restate: How do the 70 years get counted? Is this the same as how the 490 years get counted?
     
  11. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    GW,

    Daniel was studying Jeremiah's "70 years" prophecies concerning Babylon being allowed by God to remain in power for that period of time and what would happen to Babylon and to the Jewish people after the 70 years God had given to Babylon came to an end.

    Daniel had no doubt been reading Jer. 25:6,7 which quoted God as having said, "I will hand all your countries over to my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon ... All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes; then many nations and great kings will subjugate him." And Daniel was no doubt reading verses 11,12 of the same chapter where God said, "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon 70 years. ... And when the 70 years are completed I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation." And Daniel was no doubt reading Jer. 29:10,11 where God said, "When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

    Historians tells us that in 609 BC Assyria ceased to exist and her territory was taken over by the Babylonians. Historians also tells us that in 607 BC crown prince Nebuchadnezzar (he would not become king for another two years) led his first military campaign against Babylon's neighboring nations. And historians tells us that in 539 BC, Babylon was apparently punished by God for its actions, as Jeremiah had prophesied, when it was overthrown by Persia's Cyrus the Great.

    If Jeremiah's "70 year" prophecies regarding Babylonian domination of Judah and her neighboring nations referred to 70 solar years, then those 70 years may be counted from 609 to 539 BC. If they referred to 70 lunar years (68 solar years) they may be counted from 607 BC (the year Nebuchadnezzar himself first began to subjugate Babylon's neighboring nations) to 539 BC. The 70 lunar years application may actually fit the facts of history and scripture better than the 70 solar years application. For God had said, "I will hand all your countries over to my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon ... All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes." (Jer. 25:6) So Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy concerning Babylon's domination of its neighboring nations may not have begun to run until Nebuchadnezzar himself began to exercise such control. A case can be made either way.

    But I believe 70 weeks of lunar years, not solar years, must have been referred to in Daniel's "70 Weeks" prophecy.

    Mike
     
  12. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    GW,

    As an after thought, I just noticed that you referred to, "70 years in Babylonian exile."

    No such prophecy was ever made. And no such thing ever occurred. Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon and the land of Judah was completely desolated and all of its residents were led away to Babylon as captives in 587/6 BC. Babylon was overthrown by Cyrus in 539 BC. Within one year Cyrus issued a decree freeing the Jewish captives and allowing them to return home. By 537 BC the Jewish people were again living in Jerusalem.

    The Jewish people as a whole were in exile and the land of Judah was desolate for only 50 years, not 70. The first century Jewish historian Josephus, wrote, "These accounts agree with the true history in our books; for in them it is written that Nebuchadnezzar, in the nineteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it laid in that state of obscurity for fifty years; but that in the second year of the reign of Cyrus, its foundations were laid and it was finished again in the second year of Darius." (Against Apion 1:21)

    Mike
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    Note that the prophecy does not refer to "weeks of years," but only to "weeks."

    In the Hebrew, "week" is the Hebrew word "shabuwa" (Strong's #7620). Strong's Hebrew Dictionary defines it literally as "sevened," and says it is based on the Hebrew word "shaba" (Strong's #7650), which it defines as "a prim. root; prop. to be complete," so that the word "week" may possibly represent "completion," which may refer in a sealed manner to the completion of time we call a year. "The words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Daniel 12:9).

    A period of 483 Jewish years would still be 483 solar years because the Jews have always adjusted their lunar calendar to keep it in step with the solar year in order that their feasts might always remain in their proper seasons:

    "As they were lunar months they formed a mean year of 354 days, a year consequently shorter than the solar year by ten or eleven days. This difference, as can be readily seen, would have, in the course of time, completely disordered the months in relation to the seasons of the year; thus the first month, or Nîsan, (corresponding to the end of March or the beginning of April), in the middle of which the first ripe barley was to be presented to Yahweh in connection with the paschal feast (Ex. 12:1 sqq., 13:3 sqq; Lev. 23:10-12), might have fallen in the middle of winter; and some other festivals depending likewise on the products of the seasons would also have been materially interfered with" (From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03166a.htm ).

    Daniel 9:24-27 is given in answer to Daniel's prayer to be given understanding of when the people of Israel would be restored to Jerusalem in fulfillment of Jeremiah’s 70-years prophecy (Daniel 9:2).

    I believe Daniel 9:24 could be saying that God would give physical Israel the 70 years it lost in their Babylonian captivity, but within those 70 years it must fulfill all righteousness.

    This of course was not done and could not be done before Christ.

    After Christ, the only commandment allowing the Jews to restore and to build Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25) came in 1947 when the UN passed a resolution calling for the re-establishment of the state of Israel, something which had not existed since 70 AD.

    Because of Daniel 9:25, I believe that from the commandment to restore the nation of physical Israel, there may be 7 years, and 62 years, and that in the 69th year Christ may come and fulfill all the requirements of Daniel 9:24 in "thy holy city" of physical Jerusalem, and in "thy holy people" of physical Israel, by the end of the 70th year, just as he fulfilled them in his spiritual kingdom at his 1st coming, but apart from physical Jerusalem (Hebrews 13:12, Luke 13:35) and apart from most of physical Israel (Matthew 21:43).
     
  14. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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    Postrib,

    You wrote: I believe Daniel 9:24 could be saying that God would give physical Israel the 70 years it lost in their Babylonian captivity.

    No, it couldn't. For, as I pointed out in my last post, Israel was only in captivity for 50 years, not 70.
     
  15. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I believe the Bible says the 70 years were fulfilled in Babylon:

    "Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?" (Zechariah 7:5)

    "Them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years. Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying..." (2 Chronicles 36:20-22).
     
  16. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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    Postrib,

    You wrote: I believe the Bible says the 70 years were fulfilled in Babylon.

    So what history books do you feel are in error? Josephus who I quoted as saying that Jerusalem's temple was only in ruins for 50 years before the Jews began its rebuilding? Or all modern day history books which tells us that Jerusalem was destroyed, the land of Judah desolated, and all its people were taken captive to Babylon in 587/6 BC? Or all modern day history books which tell us that Cyrus overthrew Babylon in 539 BC and that the Jewish captives were again living in Jerusalem by 537 BC?

    You quoted God saying in Zechariah 7:5 "Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?"

    You didn't bother to check when God spoke those words. Zech.7:1 tells us He spoke them in the 4th year of king Darius. That was in 517 BC. The Jews had then been fasting for 70 years "in the fifth" month in commemoration of the destruction of the Temple which
    had taken place 70 years earlier in the fifth month of 587 BC. The Jews had then been fasting for 70 years "in the seventh month" in commemoration of the murder of governor Gedeliah who was murdered 70 years earlier in the seventh month of 587 BC.

    You quoted 2 Chronicles 36:20-22 assaying, "Them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years. Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying..."

    All this passage is telling us is that the Jewish captives taken to Babylon remained in Babylon, and the land of Judah remained desolate until after the 70 years which God had allowed Babylon to remain in power came to an end. It does not say that the Jews' captivity began at the same time those 70 years began and it does not say that Judah's years of lying desolate began at the same time as those 70 years began.

    I do find it quite interesting though that the land of Judah laid desolate, or "kept Sabbath" for 49 years ( 7 x 7 ). 587 to 538 BC. Their first year back in Jerusalem the Jewish people built an alter to God. Then the next year they set the foundation for their new temple. Thus Josephus said that their temple laid in ruins for 50 years. Those years were 587 to 537 BC.

    Mike
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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  18. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

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    Pastor N.B. here:
    GW:
    If you do good with 'simple' math? Place the date there as you say, 34AD ends the Probation of Israel of old. (Stoning of Stephen) Most arive at the close/by 'date' at least of 27-34 A.D. The Matt. 25's 'Midnight Cry' for Israel of old.
    Regardless? Substract the seventy weeks or 490 years (Num. 14:34-Ezra 4:6 day for yr.) from this date for the Ezra 7:13 prophecy's start! And it is interesting that many bibles have a date of 457BC in the margin.
    So if 'one' can now go [straight ahead] after thinking on the reading of this verse? Go the full 2300 days! surely they can find another of history's [starting] of great importance? 11 million members + in 7Th. day Adventism of today is remarkable! (try Matt. 23:15 for the 'full' light) Even if themost of these folk do not understand the heavenly light of Psalms 77:13 and His Sanctuary this should awaken a few.

    Now: friend :scratch:
    There is NO PROBLEM on this end, but, read the Master's Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15's 'Inspiration'? Here God says that we 'see' another 'rejection' of the Master Himself! Try John 12:42-43 for how this 'second one' works itself out! :( And the 'shaking' of Matt. 10:23'? (this is not the Gentile population! try verses 5-6 ALL :sleep:ing! Matt. 25)

    In the Master's quickly finished work for the House of God FIRST, 1 Peter 4:17 :cry: (not the Loud Cry of 666 for these!)
    Pastor N.B.
     
  19. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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    Postrib,

    I asked: What history books do you feel are in error?

    You answered: Any that deny the Bible's teaching that the Jews spent 70 years in their Babylonian captivity (Zechariah 1:12, 7:5; 2 Chronicles 36:20-22) in fulfillment of Jeremiah's 70-years prophecy (Daniel 9:2, Jeremiah 29:10).

    That is not the Bible's teaching. It is your misunderstanding of the Bible. The 70 years were a period of time during which Judah and its surrounding nations were dominated by Babylon (609-539 BC), only 49 years of which (587-538 BC) the Jewish people spent as captives in Babylon.

    If you say otherwise, tell me in what year Jerusalem fell. (All historians tell us 587/6 BC.) If you say otherwise tell me in what year the Jewish people first returned to Jerusalem from Babylon. (All historians tell us 538/7 BC.)
    Only 49 years passed between those two dates, not 70. In your opinion which year is wrong, 587/6 or 538/7 ? Or maybe you say they are both wrong. I really would be interested in reading your answer to this question.

    Mike
     
  20. aChristian

    aChristian Member

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    Pastor,

    You are kidding right? You are counting 2300 days as years and starting them in 457 and ending up at 1844 for the start of the 7th day Adventist Church? Cute. Very Cute. And very wrong. Other cults do the same things with all of Daniel's day prophecies, try to say they point to imporant events in their own religions. JWs are among the worst offenders. If you ever get serious about studying Daniel, and want to know how real Bible scholars and Bible historians tell us all of his various day prohecies were fulfilled, let me know.
     
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