the Roman King

[Spiritual Jew]

You are a funny guy!
Saying; 1 Peter 4:12 applies to us today, then - only to those of Peters day, 2 Peter 3:7 proves it to be future.

You are a VERY funny guy! 2 Peter 3:7 is about the destruction of the heavens and the earth, which is a completely different context than what 1 Peter 4:12 is about, which is going through trials/tests in life.

There are over 70 Prophesies that vividly describe a forthcoming ordeal by fire. Most OT, but some like Romans 2:18 and Hebrews 10:27, in the NT.
It is a shame that people fail to see what the Lord has so comprehensively warned us of what He intends to do.

It is a shame that you ignore all of the trials that Christians have already been through for the past almost 2,000 years as if that means nothing.

Romans 2:18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law;

What does the above verse have to do with this discussion?

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

What does this have to do with anyone being tested? This has to do with anyone rebelling against God even after having "received the knowledge of the truth" being judged and cast into the lake of fire. There is nothing about anyone being tested there.

 

[keras]

2 Peter 3:7 is about the destruction of the heavens and the earth, which is a completely different context than what 1 Peter 4:12 is about, which is going through trials/tests in life.

2 Peter 3:7 is not about the final destruction of the earth. That comes in verse 10-13 on the Day of God.
It is paralleled by Deuteronomy 32:34-36 It specifically states fire being used.

What does the above verse have to do with this discussion?

Typo; Romans 1:18

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

This also refers to the forthcoming Day, when the Lord will send fire from the sun to destroy all the ungodly peoples in the Holy Land and change the world.

 

[Fisherking]

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ [490 years minus 3.5 years] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. [Christ's death would bring an end to Jewish Sin under their Temple worship.]

NO MINUS 3.5 YEARS.............

For starters, there is no MINUS 3.5 years, you guys just insert that yourselves. There is two prophesies and three markers, vs. 26 should be split up (there were no chapters and verses, the KJV gave us that) like this.

Dan. 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks(69 total weeks or 483 years NOT 486 1/3 years) : the street shall be built again, and the wall(49 years), even in troublous times.26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off(434 years), but not for himself:

(((( So, the above GOES TOGETHER as all the ands suggest, plus in vs. 25 we get the 7 & 62 weeks COMBINED so it should never have been divided off unto another verse, we forgive the KJV translators, they had no clue what it meat tbh. But it is clear as day, the first part of verse 26 GOES WITH vs. 27. So, now we know that there will be 49 years PLUS 434 years which = 483 years, and Jesus is then KILLED. Stop adding the 3.5 years to the scriptures. ))))

There were no VERSES & CHAPTERS, so people allow a bad translation vs. where the verses cut off or change to dictate how they see an overall passage. The natural split should be HERE:

and the people (Roman's later the E.U./10 Horns) of the prince that shall come(2000 Years later as the Little Horn/AC) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary(70 AD events); and the end thereof shall be with a flood(Army), and unto the end of the war desolations are determined(Diaspora). 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:(The AC/Little Horn/E.U. President is the HE here) and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(The AC makes sure that the Jews whom repejted at the 1335, can not worship Jesus in the temple via his Jewish High Priest False Prophet, and this same FP will put up an IMAGE of the E.U. President in the temple THINK the AoD) , and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, anyone who can not get this right, of course is going to misinterpret the rest of the passage.

 

[RandyPNW]

For starters, there is no MINUS 3.5 years, you guys just insert that yourselves. There is two prophesies and three markers, vs. 26 should be split up (there were no chapters and verses, the KJV gave us that) like this.

"You guys?" Who are "you guys?" As far as I know, I'm the only one who has been saying the 70th Week was fulfilled as a "Half Week!" I really do hope others have been saying this, as well?

We are told that something happens in the "midst" of the 70th Week, which is what I believe brings the 70th Week to a close, fulfilling the entire 70 Weeks Prophecy. The Prophecy was focused, in particular, on the coming of Messiah, and all of the things he would accomplish--6 things are listed.

So when we hear that Messiah is cut off, that indicates the Prophecy has come to an end. And when did it historically come to an end? It was in the "midst of the 70th Week," when the Roman ruler caused sacrifice and offering to be terminated. It was terminated, incidentally, by the death of Christ, rendering the Temple Worship invalid.

Dan. 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks(69 total weeks or 483 years NOT 486 1/3 years) : the street shall be built again, and the wall(49 years), even in troublous times.26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off(434 years), but not for himself:

The divisions imposed of chapter and verse are not relevant here. When a period of time forms a "countdown" of sorts to the fulfillment of the overall prophecy, one cannot divide up the whole period into different sections and separate them by any length of time. That invalidates the period as a countdown and a measure as to how long something will take.

So if we combine all 3 time periods together, we will get 486.5 years, the 7 Weeks, the 62 Weeks, and half of the 70th Week, or 486.5 years. This has nothing to do with chapters and divisions.

(((( So, the above GOES TOGETHER as all the ands suggest, plus in vs. 25 we get the 7 & 62 weeks COMBINED so it should never have been divided off unto another verse, we forgive the KJV translators, they had no clue what it meat tbh. But it is clear as day, the first part of verse 26 GOES WITH vs. 27. So, now we know that there will be 49 years PLUS 434 years which = 483 years, and Jesus is then KILLED. Stop adding the 3.5 years to the scriptures. ))))

You're correct that Jesus is not said to be cut off in the midst of the 70th Week, but only after the 69 Weeks. What we are told, instead, is that the Roman Ruler causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease in the "midst of" the 70th Week, that God's Covenant is fulfilled in the 70th Week.

None of this was easily explained in the time of the giving of this Prophecy. It is now explainable by looking back at how these things were actually fulfilled.

There are different views on this, but mine is that the Roman Ruler completed the last 7 years by essentially having Christ cut off in half of this final 7 year period. This terminated sacrifices and offerings under the Law, rendering them meaningless even as they continued.

And this confirmed God's covenant for the entire 70 Week Period to make final atonement for the Jewish People, despite the failure of the Law to do this. The final 7 years were basically completed in half of the time, in only 3.5 years. I recognize the difficulty in this, but it's the best I can do.

There were no VERSES & CHAPTERS, so people allow a bad translation vs. where the verses cut off or change to dictate how they see an overall passage. The natural split should be HERE:

and the people (Roman's later the E.U./10 Horns) of the prince that shall come(2000 Years later as the Little Horn/AC) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary(70 AD events); and the end thereof shall be with a flood(Army), and unto the end of the war desolations are determined(Diaspora). 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:(The AC/Little Horn/E.U. President is the HE here) and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(The AC makes sure that the Jews whom repejted at the 1335, can not worship Jesus in the temple via his Jewish High Priest False Prophet, and this same FP will put up an IMAGE of the E.U. President in the temple THINK the AoD) , and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, anyone who can not get this right, of course is going to misinterpret the rest of the passage.

This inserts a division between the 69 weeks and the 70th Week, which is why I reject this position. It ceases to be a 70 Weeks Period interpreting it this way. It is rather a 69 Weeks Period, followed 2000 years later by a Final 1 Week Period. That makes little sense to me?

 

[Douggg]

 

[Fisherking]

"You guys?" Who are "you guys?" As far as I know, I'm the only one who has been saying the 70th Week was fulfilled as a "Half Week!" I really do hope others have been saying this, as well?

You have been around on these message boards a long time like me, so since I have seen this over and over am sure you have to have seen it also. I saw it before these boards 40 years ago.

We are told that something happens in the "midst" of the 70th Week, which is what I believe brings the 70th Week to a close, fulfilling the entire 70 Weeks Prophecy. The Prophecy was focused, in particular, on the coming of Messiah, and all of the things he would accomplish--6 things are listed.

In the middle of the 70th week, after the ONE WEEK or after the 7 Year Agreement. Its not a Covenant per se, it is, but the point is it only means an "Agreement between TWO PARTIES", God and Abraham was the first, then Moses was given the Law, but here the HE is the Little Horn/AC and the Agreement is between him and Israel, and it is not what most people think, its simply Israel joining the E.U. Then in the middle of the 7 year agreement he reneges and conquers Israel and THE MANY (the whole Mediterranean Sea Coast Region). The prophesy is about Israel, not THE WALL, The Messiah nor the Anti-Christ per se, they are the three Markers (TIMELINES) in the prophesy.

All things are accomplished when Israel repents, then flees into the Petra/Bozrah region, then God's Wrath falls on mankind, and Jesus returns to conquer his foes and deliver Israel from their enclaved position.

So when we hear that Messiah is cut off, that indicates the Prophecy has come to an end. And when did it historically come to an end? It was in the "midst of the 70th Week," when the Roman ruler caused sacrifice and offering to be terminated. It was terminated, incidentally, by the death of Christ, rendering the Temple Worship invalid.

No, that means the 2nd of three markers has come to pass, The WALL, The Messiah is killed and The Agreement between the Little Horn and Israel. The prophesies whole reasoning was to get Israel to repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah when he came, but they rejected Jesus just as they had rejected God and served false god, so God rent the temple (he left Israel desolate or alone, He saw them as Dead Men's Bones for the next 2000 some odd years until 1948). Thus Israel will not repent until just before the DOTL, Zech. 13:8-9 tells us that 1/3 repent then in the very next verse, in Zech. 14:1-2 we see the DOTL arrives and Jerusalem is conquered.

This just shows you d nit have a fundamental understanding of prophesy brother. The prince TO COME is the end time Little Horn. Dan. 8 tells us he's an END TIME King who fights with the Prince of princes (Jesus) and is killed WITHOUT HANDS (Jesus speaks victory). The whole "COVENANT" mentions even though ot merely means Agreement in Hebrew just throws you off kilter, its got to be Jesus, but its not. The Prophesy is about how it takes 70 Weeks of PUNISHMENT for Israel to repent, not 69 weeks, that is just the 2nd of three markers. Nothing is complete until the 2nd Coming. Notice in both Dan. 7 ad 8 it clearly speaks of this Eternal Being (Jesus) returning to set up an Everlasting Kingdom.

The divisions imposed of chapter and verse are not relevant here. When a period of time forms a "countdown" of sorts to the fulfillment of the overall prophecy, one cannot divide up the whole period into different sections and separate them by any length of time. That invalidates the period as a countdown and a measure as to how long something will take.

So if we combine all 3 time periods together, we will get 486.5 years, the 7 Weeks, the 62 Weeks, and half of the 70th Week, or 486.5 years. This has nothing to do with chapters and divisions.

The first TWO MARKERS are given TOGETHER, the last Marker is given SEPERATE, this was done for a reason, there is a 2000 some odd year Church Age in between The two Markers that are seen together as one, and the LAST MARKER which happens at the very end, or at the 70th week end. There is no 3.5 you guys who see this just cam up with that up out of thin air.

You're correct that Jesus is not said to be cut off in the midst of the 70th Week, but only after the 69 Weeks. What we are told, instead, is that the Roman Ruler causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease in the "midst of" the 70th Week, that God's Covenant is fulfilled in the 70th Week.

None of this was easily explained in the time of the giving of this Prophecy. It is now explainable by looking back at how these things were actually fulfilled.

There are different views on this, but mine is that the Roman Ruler completed the last 7 years by essentially having Christ cut off in half of this final 7 year period. This terminated sacrifices and offerings under the Law, rendering them meaningless even as they continued.

And this confirmed God's covenant for the entire 70 Week Period to make final atonement for the Jewish People, despite the failure of the Law to do this. The final 7 years were basically completed in half of the time, in only 3.5 years. I recognize the difficulty in this, but it's the best I can do.

It is easily explained now, and then, the Prophesy is about Israel repenting before the 70 weeks can come to pass, God rent the temple, and forsook Israel for nigh 2000 years. Also, ALL the passages on this show it to be an end tine event. The HE is the AC not Jesus, God confirms anything by his WORD, He told us Jesus was sacrificed before the Foundation of the world, Abraham was Righteous because HE BELIVED, Jesus dying did not confirm anything, Gid's Holy Vow confirmed it because He can not lie. That is just you placing Jesus in the place of the Little Horn Prophesy in Dan. 9:26 & 27.

This inserts a division between the 69 weeks and the 70th Week, which is why I reject this position. It ceases to be a 70 Weeks Period interpreting it this way. It is rather a 69 Weeks Period, followed 2000 years later by a Final 1 Week Period. That makes little sense to me?
There has been no 70th Week Agreement between Israel and the AC yet.

 

[RandyPNW]

You have been around on these message boards a long time like me, so since I have seen this over and over am sure you have to have seen it also. I saw it before these boards 40 years ago.

Yea, probably. I started on Usent I think in 1999. But that certainly isn't where I started discussing or analyzing difficult biblical subjects. That started in the mid-70s. I attended Bible School in the early 70s.
So.....yes, probably. I've changed lots of my positions on biblical prophecy since then.

In the middle of the 70th week, after the ONE WEEK or after the 7 Year Agreement. Its not a Covenant per se, it is, but the point is it only means an "Agreement between TWO PARTIES", God and Abraham was the first, then Moses was given the Law, but here the HE is the Little Horn/AC and the Agreement is between him and Israel, and it is not what most people think, its simply Israel joining the E.U.

Yes, I used to think this too. I've changed my position, whether for better or worse. I now think this is not the *making of a covenant,* but rather, the *confirmation of a covenant.* I believe the Roman leader indirectly confirmed God's covenant with Israel through the Messiah by *putting him to death.*

Then in the middle of the 7 year agreement he reneges and conquers Israel and THE MANY (the whole Mediterranean Sea Coast Region). The prophesy is about Israel, not THE WALL, The Messiah nor the Anti-Christ per se, they are the three Markers (TIMELINES) in the prophesy.

All things are accomplished when Israel repents, then flees into the Petra/Bozrah region, then God's Wrath falls on mankind, and Jesus returns to conquer his foes and deliver Israel from their enclaved position.

I distinguish between 2 different passages, both of which speak of "escaping to a wilderness" as such. The 1st is when Jesus told his Disciples in his generation to flee the Romany Army, what I think is the Abomination of Desolation. They fled to Pella.

The 2nd occasion is in Rev 12, and speaks of the Woman who flees the river spewed out by Satan after her. I don't know what this 2nd incident refers to, but it is interesting for sure!

No, that means the 2nd of three markers has come to pass, The WALL, The Messiah is killed and The Agreement between the Little Horn and Israel. The prophesies whole reasoning was to get Israel to repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah when he came, but they rejected Jesus just as they had rejected God and served false god, so God rent the temple (he left Israel desolate or alone, He saw them as Dead Men's Bones for the next 2000 some odd years until 1948). Thus Israel will not repent until just before the DOTL, Zech. 13:8-9 tells us that 1/3 repent then in the very next verse, in Zech. 14:1-2 we see the DOTL arrives and Jerusalem is conquered.

I see the Prophecy of the 70 Weeks as being fulfilled completely in Jesus' earthly ministry and death. And yes, Israel did not repent at that point. In fact, Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in that very generation, as Jesus prophesied.

Israel will repent when a remnant of faith in Israel continues to maintain their faith in the modern State of Israel, and when those who reject Jesus will come under judgment. This will bring some to their demise, and many others to the place of repentance.

This just shows you d nit have a fundamental understanding of prophesy brother. The prince TO COME is the end time Little Horn. Dan. 8 tells us he's an END TIME King who fights with the Prince of princes (Jesus) and is killed WITHOUT HANDS (Jesus speaks victory).

No, I don't fail to understand how I understand it. I do fail to understand how you understand it. What makes you think you have a lock on the truth? Is your system of interpretation superior to all others?

The prince to come in Dan 9 is the Roman ruler, whose "people," an army, destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. Dan 8 doesn't go beyond Antiochus 4, who preceded both the Roman ruler and the Antichrist.

The whole "COVENANT" mentions even though ot merely means Agreement in Hebrew just throws you off kilter, its got to be Jesus, but its not. The Prophesy is about how it takes 70 Weeks of PUNISHMENT for Israel to repent, not 69 weeks, that is just the 2nd of three markers. Nothing is complete until the 2nd Coming. Notice in both Dan. 7 ad 8 it clearly speaks of this Eternal Being (Jesus) returning to set up an Everlasting Kingdom.

No, I don't think the 70 Weeks Prophecy is predicting how long it will take for Israel to repent. On the contrary, it extends the period of trouble that Daniel had seen with the 1st Temple to impact the 2nd Temple, as well. Israel certainly didn't repent at Jesus' 1st Coming.

I don't think the emphasis is on Jesus making a covenant. Rather, the Roman ruler *confirms* the covenant God had with Israel, which was the covenant of Law. And that Law was confirmed by the Roman ruler putting Jesus to death, thus curtailing further animal sacrifices and offerings. This isn't very clear from the language in Dan 9, but that's what happened.

The first TWO MARKERS are given TOGETHER, the last Marker is given SEPERATE, this was done for a reason, there is a 2000 some odd year Church Age in between The two Markers that are seen together as one, and the LAST MARKER which happens at the very end, or at the 70th week end. There is no 3.5 you guys who see this just cam up with that up out of thin air.

I agree that there's been 2000 years since Jesus was cut off, and that's when, I think, the 70th Week was fulfilled. But the Church Age is *not* a parenthesis in the history of Israel. Rather, it was the beginning of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant, promising the Kingdom of God would belong to many nations--not just Israel. Israel would come along last as a nation dedicated to Christ.

I'll stop here. We can hopefully disagree *agreeably?*

 

[Fisherking]

No, I don't fail to understand how I understand it. I do fail to understand how you understand it. What makes you think you have a lock on the truth? Is your system of interpretation superior to all others?

No you fail to understand the truth brother. The rest is not relevant is it? You make a Prophesy about Israel and Jerusalem (HER PEOPLE) about Jesus. Makes no sense at all.

 

[RandyPNW]

No you fail to understand the truth brother. The rest is not relevant is it? You make a Prophesy about Israel and Jerusalem (HER PEOPLE) about Jesus. Makes no sense at all.

How can it not make sense when so many Christians, including Christian scholars, have seen the 70 Weeks as focused on the coming of Messiah to be cut off for our sins? If it was just my view, maybe it makes no sense.

But when it makes sense to an enormous number of people, including very smart people, it makes you look like you're saying "it makes no sense" just to make your choice look superior and beyond scrutiny. And to me, the prophecy is much more focused on Israel's failure than on their success, if that's what you wish to claim?

The future of the 2nd Temple was bound to end up in failure just like the 1st one. And all hope for the future rested on a new kind of Temple--Jesus. That's what I believe the prophecy was all about. And he fulfilled the 6 things that Daniel was told must take place.

 

[Fisherking]

How can it not make sense when so many Christians, including Christian scholars, have seen the 70 Weeks as focused on the coming of Messiah to be cut off for our sins? If it was just my view, maybe it makes no sense.

Well is it THE WALL that forgives us, or the AGREEMENT? And, just because Jesus is our Salvation, doesn't men the Prophesy is about Jesus and his Salvation, its about Israel repenting and the 490 years of penance they must pay for disobedience.

Israel could have repented before Jesus came, just as Abraham was made righteous because he believed in the COMING PROMISE. So, Jesus did not have to show up and die in order for repentance to happen. The Messiah was killed or CUT OFF, but that in the prophesy is just one of three MARKERS !!

But when it makes sense to an enormous number of people, including very smart people, it makes you look like you're saying "it makes no sense" just to make your choice look superior and beyond scrutiny. And to me, the prophecy is much more focused on Israel's failure than on their success, if that's what you wish to claim?

Basically, no one agrees with your thesis brother, its very, very fringe stuff. Go check all the major commentaries. No one puts this stuff out that has any cred at all.

The future of the 2nd Temple was bound to end up in failure just like the 1st one. And all hope for the future rested on a new kind of Temple--Jesus. That's what I believe the prophecy was all about. And he fulfilled the 6 things that Daniel was told must take place.

The Prophesy is about Israel repenting, it still has not happened and can not happen until after the Rapture (Fulness of the Gentiles be come in)

 

[RandyPNW]

Well is it THE WALL that forgives us, or the AGREEMENT? And, just because Jesus is our Salvation, doesn't men the Prophesy is about Jesus and his Salvation, its about Israel repenting and the 490 years of penance they must pay for disobedience.

The Wall? Please use English we can all understand? It's not just us who read these conversations.

I agree that the 70 Weeks Prophecy is not very clear about Jesus' Salvation. We do see that some things that are positive will be done, but it isn't clear that Messiah does them since he is "cut off."

On the contrary, this Prophecy is about the shortcomings of the Temple Worship, which is to be terminated along with the cutting off of Messiah. This Prophecy, in other words, is to direct hope away from the Temple Law in hope of a "confirmed Covenant."

So we have to ask ourselves, "How was this Covenant confirmed? And what was the Covenant?" I've already answered this, though it's a questionable interpretation--it's just my 2 cents.

I think the Covenant is God's Covenant with Israel, which stands apart from the failing Temple worship. And it is confirmed, indirectly, by the Roman ruler, who puts Messiah to death. In other words, putting Messiah to death is the thing that "confirms God's Covenant with Israel!"

Basically, no one agrees with your thesis brother, its very, very fringe stuff. Go check all the major commentaries. No one puts this stuff out that has any cred at all.

I've studied these things for many years. Sometimes I drew conclusions before later recognizing they were the same beliefs held by the Church Fathers. Sometimes, those Church Fathers disagreed. Sometimes they failed to interpret some things, such as Israel's future Salvation, because in their time it just wasn't happening.

I like to stay close to what has been believed because I know God doesn't have prophecy written down for only a few to understand. But this prophecy is unique, and is deliberately vague--understandably so. If we understand why this "vagueness" we may understand what it really meant, as time unfolds more of the pertinent drama that surrounds it.

At the time, the Romans could not by explicitly identified. It would bring charges of sedition in the time when the Church separated from Israel. It would not be just a matter of a big empire against a small nation. It would be a matter of dealing with individual insurrectionists who are growing into what seems to be a large rebellion, doing harm to the Christian testimony.

So how the Roman ruler figures into Dan 9.26-27 is understood as something that cannot be spelled out very much. But after the fact we can see it, that the Roman ruler destroyed Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Messiah. This is not strange doctrine--the Church Fathers pretty much held to it.

The Prophesy is about Israel repenting, it still has not happened and can not happen until after the Rapture (Fulness of the Gentiles be come in)

I don't see Jewish repentance in the 70 Weeks Prophecy. What we do see is that Messiah comes to bring an atonement for sin...

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness..."