Daniel Dulcich's Rebuttal to "10 Commandments show How to Love".

[GDL]

As long as law-keeping is kept theoretical, it can be discussed and debated indefinitely. It's when the details are brought forward that the discussion / debate usually resolves quickly in my experience.

That's why I keep gently prodding you to lay out the details of your practice.

What is the point you are trying to prove? What is it you believe re: the Christian and God's Law & Commandments?

I don't think law-keeping in concept is theoretical (IOW I may not accept your terminology). I think doing God's applicable commandments in faithful loving obedience to Him is Biblical. I also think life and growth and salvation in Christ is a process which includes continual learning along the way through study, being led in Spirit, and being tested to learn what He wants us to learn when He wants us to learn something specific.

I don't think your misaligned construction project photo is applicable. I think there will be perfect alignment at completion, but most of us will likely fall short of where we could have gotten. The Text speaks of a potential filling of what we lack for completion 1Thes3:10 & James1:4. How many of us will have listened and have had all our lack filled? What will our productivity have been per Luke8 when we stand before Him?

Honestly, I don't know how complete my lists will be. Do you?

 

[Leaf473]

God is the Lawgiver and commands man in His Law not to murder.

Christians avoid murder because it is God's will as commanded in His Law

It is against the Law in N Korea to murder, which means N Korea's law aligns with God's Law re murder.

Therefore, Christians and N Korea are doing what God commands (whether they both acknowledge God or not)


Your initial premise is not acceptable. Christians do more than try not to murder.
Your conclusion does not work. There is no logic in your dual premise that places Christians under the Law of N Korea.
The best conclusion you can have here is that Christians try to do the same thing that N Korea legislates but it cannot be concluded that Christians are under N Korea Law or try not to murder because N Korea so legislates.

"The best conclusion you can have here is that Christians try to do the same thing that N Korea legislates..."

Right...

"...it cannot be concluded that Christians are under N Korea Law..."

Exactly! That was my conclusion.

Then generalizing that,
If a person's behavior matches a particular code, it can't be concluded that the person is acknowledging that they are under that code.

 

[GDL]

"The best conclusion you can have here is that Christians try to do the same thing that N Korea legislates..."

Right...

"...it cannot be concluded that Christians are under N Korea Law..."

Exactly! That was my conclusion.

Then generalizing that,
If a person's behavior matches a particular code, it can't be concluded that the person is acknowledging that they are under that code.

To repeat:

What is it you believe re: the Christian and God's Law & Commandments?

 

[Leaf473]

Sure, but what's your point, specifically?

I don't think Christians are "under Mosaic Law."

I just used "under" because it seemed to make the sentence work better.

We could reword it to something like,

If a person's behavior matches a particular code, it can't be concluded that the person is acknowledging that that particular legal code is in effect for them.

 

[Leaf473]

What is the point you are trying to prove? What is it you believe re: the Christian and God's Law & Commandments?

I don't think law-keeping in concept is theoretical (IOW I may not accept your terminology). I think doing God's applicable commandments in faithful loving obedience to Him is Biblical. I also think life and growth and salvation in Christ is a process which includes continual learning along the way through study, being led in Spirit, and being tested to learn what He wants us to learn when He wants us to learn something specific.

I don't think your misaligned construction project photo is applicable. I think there will be perfect alignment at completion, but most of us will likely fall short of where we could have gotten. The Text speaks of a potential filling of what we lack for completion 1Thes3:10 & James1:4. How many of us will have listened and have had all our lack filled? What will our productivity have been per Luke8 when we stand before Him?

Honestly, I don't know how complete my lists will be. Do you?

___________

What is the point you are trying to prove? What is it you believe re: the Christian and God's Law & Commandments?

My overall point is that the law of Moses (Genesis to Deuteronomy) isn't in effect for Christians. When Jesus says, "If you love me keep my commandments," he's referring to things like Love one another as I have loved you or even Do this in remembrance of me.

I don't think law-keeping in concept is theoretical (IOW I may not accept your terminology).

The practice of law keeping is not theoretical. But in our discussion, we can talk about the theory of keeping the law of Moses, or we can talk about the details of putting it into practice.

I think there will be perfect alignment at completion...

Well, when you have reached a conclusion about all of the laws in the law of Moses, then other people can see if they match up, things like if your decisions are consistent.

Honestly, I don't know how complete my lists will be. Do you?

Are you asking me about your list? If so, I don't think he'll be able to complete it in a reasonable and consistent fashion. That's how it looks from where I'm standing

If you're asking me about my list, I'm not making a list

 

[Leaf473]

To repeat:

What is it you believe re: the Christian and God's Law & Commandments?

Right, we're both posting at the same time, and we're a bit out of sync or something

But I respond to this in 105, I think it is

 

[pasifika]

The law is not faith, nor did I ever state that it is, faith is in God and trusting what He asks of us and doing it, because we believe God would not ask us to do something that is not good for us in both Old and New Covenant and because we love God Exodus 20:6, 1 John 5:3. Abraham was justified through faith Romans 4:1-8 and that faith in God trusted the things that God asked and did them. Gen 26:5. How do you have faith in God but not enough faith to do the things that He asks. That does not sound like saving faith to me.

What is God's righteousness? God is righteous Psalms 145:17 All of God's commandments are righteous Psalms 119:172 and God's character is reflected in His commandments so doing them will always be right and there is no scripture that says obeying God's commandments is self-righteous but obeying our on self-law is righteous.

We have been through this a few times - all righteousness comes from God .... I will copy what I wrote previously which thus far you haven't really addressed.

I agree all righteousness (right-doing) comes from God and all of God's commandments are righteous Psalms 119:172 which means its the morally right thing to do. Our righteousness is when we depend on our own version of right-doing and not God's. When we decide which laws, we are going to obey based on our version of what we feel is right or wrong, but scripture says all of God's commandments are righteousness, so there is never a time to cast aside the commandments we don't want to keep and replace it with self-law. We cannot sanctify ourselves; we are only sanctified by God and are sanctified by the Truth of God's Word John 17:17 and all of God's commandments are Truth. Psalms 119:151

Are you implying those who live by faith don't have the law of God written in the heart and doesn't do what God placed in the hearts and minds of His people?

I think we may be going in circles but I'll say this again for the record:

We are not made righteous by the law, we are made righteous by faith in God and those who have faith uphold God's law says Paul Romans 3:31. Paul very clearly says faith does not void the law, which seems to be the case you're trying to make, but instead those who have faith uphold God's law.

The law brings us to Christ Galatians 3:24 and perfect for converting the soul Psalms 19:7 because it is the right thing to do Psalms 119:172 the opposite (breaking God's law) is sin 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 and sin is of the devil 1 John 3:8 so that's our choice do we keep God's law through faith, or do we sit back and justify why we can't keep the law and be a slave to sin?

Paul puts it this way....

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

So its through our choices that we either sin and go down one path or have faith in God which is obedient to what He asks and leads us down the other. These are our two choices- we either take the wide path or the narrow path.

Hi SB, I think there's a lot to cover..

What is Gods Righteousness? Doing what is right based on God's way 1 John 3:7. And It comes in a "bodily form" ie in the form of Christ 1Corinthians 1:30.

Why do we need God's Righteousness? Because it contains eternal life (Romans 5:21) something we don't have and we must have.

How do we get it? Romans 9:30-32
Either by Gods works (through Faith) or our own works (through the law OC), Hence why the two covenants was made.

"Yes, the old covenant was between God and children of Israel this just show them (Israel ) they cannot achieve what God's wants for them on their own works."

the law under old covenant based solely on man's works to achieve God's Righteousness (eternal life) in which they did not obtained it.

Whereas under the new covenant God's Righteousness is achieved solely by Gods works through Faith in Jesus Christ to those who believe.

The two covenants don't go hand in hand is either your works or God’s work to attained Righteousness.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SB, I think there's a lot to cover..

What is Gods Righteousness? Doing what is right based on God's way 1 John 3:7. And It comes in a "bodily form" ie in the form of Christ 1Corinthians 1:30.

Why do we need God's Righteousness? Because it contains eternal life (Romans 5:21) something we don't have and we must have.

How do we get it? Romans 9:30-32
Either by Gods works (through Faith) or our own works (through the law OC), Hence why the two covenants was made.

"Yes, the old covenant was between God and children of Israel this just show them (Israel ) they cannot achieve what God's wants for them on their own works."

the law under old covenant based solely on man's works to achieve God's Righteousness (eternal life) in which they did not obtained it.

Whereas under the new covenant God's Righteousness is achieved solely by Gods works through Faith in Jesus Christ to those who believe.

The two covenants don't go hand in hand is either your works or God’s work to attained Righteousness.

So if we have God's righteousness in the New Covenant, would we be keeping the law of God through faith, or breaking God's law?

 

[GDL]

I just used "under" because it seemed to make the sentence work better.

We could reword it to something like,

If a person's behavior matches a particular code, it can't be concluded that the person is acknowledging that that particular legal code is in effect for them.

It's not primarily about what I like. It's about thinking and speaking like the Word, because I think we should, then also because I do like it, but also so we all might argue a little less. Paul says very clearly that we are not under Law and this has a certain meaning to him. So, it should to us.

I disagree with your last sentence, both based on our previous points of discussion and per the following. We know the Law of Christ is in effect for us. I know that the Word does not say we are under it. 1Cor9:21 says we are lawful to Christ and not unlawful to God and Gal6:1-2 speaks of our fulfilling it. It's all about righteousness for us - Christ's righteousness - and He hates lawlessness Heb1:9. So, what does His righteousness for us look like now that He has taken us into the NC era? This is the same question all of our discussions end up with. God has righteous commandments in effect for us. We will behave like it, or we will be disciplined (Prov13:24; Heb12:5-8) or worse, which discussion I'm avoiding for this thread.

We are being conformed to the likeness of Jesus Christ the Righteous, our first-born brother (Rom8:29) who learned obedience (Heb5:8). We will become what righteousness He has in effect for us, or we are not His and He is not the Christ to us. Our behavior will match His code of righteousness because it will be written in our minds and on our hearts.

 

[GDL]

___________

My overall point is that the law of Moses (Genesis to Deuteronomy) isn't in effect for Christians. When Jesus says, "If you love me keep my commandments," he's referring to things like Love one another as I have loved you or even Do this in remembrance of me.

Some of the commandments stated in Mosaic Law are most certainly in effect for us or we have no Love God or Love Neighbor commands, nor the commandments they summarize. You're working too hard to reject God's Law which contains God's Righteous standards for His creation. The Law was changed to provide for the Priesthood of Jesus Christ. Changed Law means Law still in effect.

The practice of law keeping is not theoretical. But in our discussion, we can talk about the theory of keeping the law of Moses, or we can talk about the details of putting it into practice.

I've no desire to discuss keeping the Mosaic Law as a unit, nor am I saying anything that should make anyone think I'm saying we must. However, my first reply just above applies. Law keeping vs. putting it into practice doesn't sound like much if any of a difference.

Well, when you have reached a conclusion about all of the laws in the law of Moses, then other people can see if they match up, things like if your decisions are consistent.

I understood your misaligned road picture. Ultimately, my only concern is what He thinks. The background of my thinking includes 1Cor4:3. It seems many cannot understand that a summary commandment from Moses includes what it summarizes from Moses. It seems many cannot understand that there is a lawful use of Law per Paul, and that this too means that Law is still in effect and still identifies what sinful works of the flesh are. It seems many cannot understand that Paul draws from Moses re: feeding working animals in order to instruct on behalf of Jesus Christ that we Christians compensate and support Church elders who care for our spirits and teach us. It seems many are clearly biased against Moses, but Jesus and His Apostles are clearly not. Thus, nor am I. It also seems many cannot understand that it is God's Law that is still in effect and working to varying degrees in the hearts of those who don't even believe in Him. And we all should thank Him for this and pray He never pulls back the restraint of sin that this grace provides. We get periodic glimpses (maybe more & more of them right now) of what happens when His restraint is no longer applied, and the human conscience is gone. This can be the more prevalent order of things if He so chooses in His perfectly righteous judgment.

Are you asking me about your list? If so, I don't think he'll be able to complete it in a reasonable and consistent fashion. That's how it looks from where I'm standing

If you're asking me about my list, I'm not making a list

So, your interest in prodding others to make such a list is to prove it will be a misaligned road. Once again, for me, 1Cor4:3 would apply.

 

[GDL]

What is Gods Righteousness? Doing what is right based on God's way 1 John 3:7.

Whereas under the new covenant God's Righteousness is achieved solely by Gods works through Faith in Jesus Christ to those who believe.

Pardon me for jumping in. You don't see any contradiction between the 2 quotes above? What are the good works He created us to do in Christ in Spirit (Eph2:10)?

DBY Ephesians 6:13 For this reason take to you the panoply of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having accomplished all things, to stand.​

​

DBY Philippians 2:12 So that, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,​

​

DBY James 1:20 for man's wrath does not work God's righteousness.​

I'm using translations that bring out the actual Greek word used, which speaks of work. All of the above verses use the same Greek word which is an intensified version of the word that means "work." It shifts the emphasis from "work to accomplish" to "accomplish by work." Most assuredly we are working with God as He created us to do in Christ and walking in Spirit.

The following verses use the basic word that focuses on the "work to accomplish":

DBY Romans 2:10 but glory and honour and peace to every one that works good, both to Jew first and to Greek:​

​

DRA Galatians 6:10 Therefore, whilst we have time, let us work good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith.​

​

DRA Ephesians 4:28 He that stole, let him now steal no more; but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have something to give to him that suffereth need.​

​

ESV Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men​

​

NKJ Hebrews 11:33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,​

​

NET James 2:9 But if you show prejudice, you are committing working sin and are convicted by the law as violators.​

​

YLT 3 John 1:5 Beloved, faithfully dost thou do whatever thou mayest work to the brethren and to the strangers,​

​

God did the work to bring us to Christ. Christ did the work God sent Him to do to provide us with His Righteousness. We were newly created by God to do good works in Christ in Spirit. Our doing what is righteous in Christ is also our working and accomplishing what is righteous in Christ. God is functioning in us, so we desire and function for His good pleasure. Both of these underlined words could be translated as "work" but the focus is more on the capability being put into action to produce a result. (Phil2:13 tying to Phil2:12 shown above).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Pardon me for jumping in. You don't see any contradiction between the 2 quotes above? What are the good works He created us to do in Christ in Spirit (Eph2:10)?

DBY Ephesians 6:13 For this reason take to you the panoply of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having accomplished all things, to stand.​

​

DBY Philippians 2:12 So that, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,​

​

DBY James 1:20 for man's wrath does not work God's righteousness.​

I'm using translations that bring out the actual Greek word used, which speaks of work. All of the above verses use the same Greek word which is an intensified version of the word that means "work." It shifts the emphasis from "work to accomplish" to "accomplish by work." Most assuredly we are working with God as He created us to do in Christ and walking in Spirit.

The following verses use the basic word that focuses on the "work to accomplish":

DBY Romans 2:10 but glory and honour and peace to every one that works good, both to Jew first and to Greek:​

​

DRA Galatians 6:10 Therefore, whilst we have time, let us work good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith.​

​

DRA Ephesians 4:28 He that stole, let him now steal no more; but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have something to give to him that suffereth need.​

​

ESV Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men​

​

NKJ Hebrews 11:33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,​

​

NET James 2:9 But if you show prejudice, you are committing working sin and are convicted by the law as violators.​

​

YLT 3 John 1:5 Beloved, faithfully dost thou do whatever thou mayest work to the brethren and to the strangers,​

​

God did the work to bring us to Christ. Christ did the work God sent Him to do to provide us with His Righteousness. We were newly created by God to do good works in Christ in Spirit. Our doing what is righteous in Christ is also our working and accomplishing what is righteous in Christ. God is functioning in us, so we desire and function for His good pleasure. Both of these underlined words could be translated as "work" but the focus is more on the capability being put into action to produce a result. (Phil2:13 tying to Phil2:12 shown above).

Thanks for jumping in, I did not have the time today for a proper response, so I appreciate it.

As always you make some excellent points that I pray will be read with an open mind and heart.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi SB, I think there's a lot to cover..

What is Gods Righteousness? Doing what is right based on God's way 1 John 3:7. And It comes in a "bodily form" ie in the form of Christ 1Corinthians 1:30.

Why do we need God's Righteousness? Because it contains eternal life (Romans 5:21) something we don't have and we must have.

How do we get it? Romans 9:30-32
Either by Gods works (through Faith) or our own works (through the law OC), Hence why the two covenants was made.

"Yes, the old covenant was between God and children of Israel this just show them (Israel ) they cannot achieve what God's wants for them on their own works."

the law under old covenant based solely on man's works to achieve God's Righteousness (eternal life) in which they did not obtained it.

Whereas under the new covenant God's Righteousness is achieved solely by Gods works through Faith in Jesus Christ to those who believe.

The two covenants don't go hand in hand is either your works or God’s work to attained Righteousness.

The Old Covenant is first found in Eden "Obey and Live" - but then Adam disobeyed.

Every human on Earth is under that same covenant as a lost sinner - until they accept the Gospel as we see in Rom 3:19-20.

But those in both OT and NT that accept the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 (and as quoted verbatim in Heb 8;6-12) is freed from condemnation of the Law but STILL is subject to the same LAW of God that says to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 and says "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 as being the Law that "defines what sin is" 1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law" . Jer 31 says God writes that very same law on the heart and mind under the New Covenant.

 

[Leaf473]

...it cannot be concluded that Christians are under N Korea Law or try not to murder because N Korea so legislates.

I disagree with your last sentence, both based on our previous points of discussion and per the following.

That's fine, but I thought you had agreed with it in the post quoted above

 

[Leaf473]

It's not primarily about what I like. It's about thinking and speaking like the Word, because I think we should, then also because I do like it, but also so we all might argue a little less. Paul says very clearly that we are not under Law and this has a certain meaning to him. So, it should to us.

That's fine, we can just use some variation of "in effect" instead

 

[Leaf473]

We know the Law of Christ is in effect for us.

Amen! And if that corresponds to some, but only some, of the law of Moses, then we have a great topic for discussion

 

[Leaf473]

Some of the commandments stated in Mosaic Law are most certainly in effect for us or we have no Love God or Love Neighbor commands, nor the commandments they summarize. You're working too hard to reject God's Law which contains God's Righteous standards for His creation. The Law was changed to provide for the Priesthood of Jesus Christ. Changed Law means Law still in effect.

The next question is,
which parts are still in effect?

If you'd like to post your results so far, it might help the discussion

 

[Leaf473]

Law keeping vs. putting it into practice doesn't sound like much if any of a difference.

Can you see a difference between

a discussion about the theory of pouring concrete

and

a discussion about planning to make a concrete patio?

Hopefully the above words come across as pleasant. That's how they're intended
Proverbs 16
Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.

 

[Leaf473]

I understood your misaligned road picture. Ultimately, my only concern is what He thinks. The background of my thinking includes 1Cor4:3.

"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by man’s judgment. Yes, I don’t judge my own self."

Amen! I'm not interested in judging anyone, or in being judged by other people.

If you'd like to have a discussion about what parts of the law of Moses may be in effect today, then I'm interested

 

[Leaf473]

So, your interest in prodding others to make such a list is to prove it will be a misaligned road. Once again, for me, 1Cor4:3 would apply.

Well, it's to help them see that it can't be done. Or to show me that it can be

The misaligned road is neither here nor there. That's just what the picture happened to be about.

This doesn't have to be, like, something super intense. It's a discussion forum about the law. It's good to talk about the law. You believe that some parts of the law of Moses are still in effect for Christians today? Interesting. When you know which ones, or if you're willing to say which ones you've decided so far, I think that would make the discussion more efficient

You shall talk of these laws when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.
Deuteronomy 6