Daniel Dulcich's Rebuttal to "10 Commandments show How to Love".

[GDL]

Yes, there are things that we do out of love for our neighbor that will overlap with things talked about in the law of Moses, but it doesn't thereby follow that those parts of the law of Moses are in effect today.

Why not? Love Neighbor and Love God are parts of the Mosaic Law, and they are in effect today. And the 5 commandments plus any other commandment that Love Neighbor summarizes are in effect today. And any commandment that is to be kept to Love God is in effect today.

As I read our Text, the Mosaic Law as a unit is not in effect today, but parts of the Mosaic Law have obviously survived. Students of God's Law for millennia have interpreted our Text to say there was Law pre-Moses - as is very obvious from Gen 26:5 - and there is Law in the NC era - as is obvious in the reality of God writing His Law in minds and on hearts and Paul saying there is a lawful use of Law. And these facts are just a start. They have used terminology like "God's Law" and "Moral Law" to describe the thread of God's Righteousness that exists in and lasts through any covenant God makes with men. I'm in agreement with this concept.

I'd just change your wording to say, like these students of Law I mention, that those parts of the Mosaic Law that were pre-Moses and that last in Christ are God's Law, which is always applicable, it's even being written in minds and on hearts now so, when this is finished, we won't need Law, we will be Law - Righteous sons of God living in a land where Righteousness dwells and with the Righteous King and God.

Now... you may not have a written list, but it sounds like you do have some kind of unwritten list. So far we have:
the ten commandments,
Leviticus 18:23
and Deuteronomy 22:8.

Does anything else come to your mind?

Probably, but this can get to be quite a process. Wouldn't you find it easier to start researching the 2 documents listed in your quote above and make your own list? Kings used to have to write their own copy of Torah. There's surely a point to this practice.

It's possible Paul has a deep theological concept in mind in Philippians 3. Myself, I think he's getting at more the idea of You might think I have it all together because I'm an apostle, but I don't. I still have struggles like everyone else. But I keep pressing on.

I'm sure it's deep. But Paul spoke several times of his process and wanted partners to help encourage him in the process we're all going through. I see Paul telling us in Phil3 that the pursuit of arriving at the resurrection, the high call of God in Christ Jesus, is a life-long constant pursuit that surpasses Spiritual Maturity and is our becoming more and more like our Lord and first-born Brother. The words Paul uses essentially say there are 2 Perfections (completions/goals/ends): Spiritual Maturity described in some detail by Paul and having to do with knowledge and more succinctly described in late Hebrews5 and into 6; the continuing pursuit in Phil3 that Paul says is arrival at the resurrection - the Perfect ones arriving at the Perfection, so to speak.

Great discussion, btw And again, if you happen to think of more from the law of Moses that you believe must be done to show love for God, I'm interested

Thanks. I'm sure it'll come up now and then. I have more than a few research projects I'd like to do. This is one of them. With your interest, I'm wondering why you aren't doing the study yourself.

 

[GDL]

and you can't improve on perfection

I'm smiling because I just wrote to @Leaf473 that Paul uses language that we could translate (albeit such translation might be a bit misleading conceptually but certainly memorable) as becoming Perfect (mature) and seeking to be Perfected. In a way this is Perfect 1 and Perfect 2, so advancing or improving on Perfection 1. But not in the context you mentioned. God's Law is Perfect. Amen.

but scripture says all of God's commandments are righteousness, so there is never a time to cast aside the commandments we don't want to keep and replace it with self-law.

Is there a time when some of God's Commandments are no longer applicable, but were for an era? I'm comparing our thoughts, because I enjoy reading yours.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm smiling because I just wrote to @Leaf473 that Paul uses language that we could translate (albeit such translation might be a bit misleading conceptually but certainly memorable) becoming Perfect (mature) and seeking to be Perfected. In a way this is Perfect 1 and Perfect 2, so advancing or improving on Perfection 1. But not in the context you mentioned. God's Law is Perfect. Amen.

Only God can make us perfect, but I don't think that will happen until Jesus comes when He blots out the sins of His saints like shown in Hebrews 11, but what He does is perfect including His law. Amen.

Is there a time when some of God's Commandments are no longer applicable, but were for an era? I'm comparing our thoughts, because I enjoy reading yours.

I can't find any scripture that says any of the commandments are temporary or no longer applicable. One of the last scriptures before the Revelation of Jesus Christ is blessed are those who do His commandments Revelation 22:14

I know some try to make a case for the Sabbath commandment is not binding in the NC, but the fact that the tabernacle in the Old Testimony was an exact replica of God's heavenly Temple Hebrews 8:2 and inside the Most Holy of God's Temple in the ark, are the Ten Commandments Revelation 11:19 plus we have Isaiah 66:23 so saying only nine commandments transferred over to the NC and to forget the one commandment God said remember is not a good scriptural argument. I know you don't like debating the Sabbath or are making this argument, but just thought I would include it, since it is the one commandment that is most contested for some strange reason.

The only laws I see in scripture ending are the laws of ordinances Col 2:14, Eph 2:15 Hebrews 10:1-10 as these were temporary laws added after the fall of man all pointing to Jesus and His great Sacrifice for the penalty of our sins. The law of the earthy priesthood changed as well since Jesus is our High Priest and Mediator of God's New Covenant promise.

I think a lot of people try to put "the law" as just commandments, but scripture does not define it that way.

Neh 9:13 “You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments.

if you come up with something different, let me know.

 

[GDL]

I can't find any scripture that says any of the commandments are temporary or no longer applicable in scripture. One of the last scriptures before the Revelation of Jesus Christ is blessed are those who do His commandments Revelation 22:14

The only laws I see in scripture ending are the laws of ordinances Col 2:14, Eph 2:15 Hebrews 10:1-10 as these were temporary laws added after the fall of man all pointing to Jesus and His great Sacrifice for the penalty of our sins. The law of the earthy priesthood changed as well since Jesus is our High Priest and Mediator of God's New Covenant promise.

So, the commandments are different than the ordinances? The commandments specifically being? The ordinances being animal sacrifices and such that were fulfilled?

 

[GDL]

I know you don't like debating the Sabbath or are making this argument

Don't like debating it and not making any arguments for the time being. Same for Eschatology.

 

[GDL]

Neh 9:13 “You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments.

if you come up with something different, let me know.

I'm familiar with the various terminology and a few decades ago tried to track it all through the Text in Hebrew and Greek. I recall it being a difficult task and seem to recall many inconsistencies in English translations.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So, the commandments are different than the ordinances?

According to the scripture...

Neh 9:13 “You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments.

The commandments specifically being?

We know the Ten are certainly included Exodus 20:6

The ordinances being animal sacrifices and such that were fulfilled?

The scripture is clear, no more animal sacrifices as Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb. Col 2:14-17, Hebrews 10:1-10 and in still offering animal sacrifices it shows the blood of Christ was not good enough to forgive our sins, but we know that's not true, as the blood of animals was never perfect, but the blood of Jesus is perfect and through His great sacrifice we can have eternal life by committing ourselves to Christ and living for Him, which we become new, made in His image to follow Him.

The reason there were sacrifices in the first place was for the forgiveness of sin. Lev 4:35 Lev 5:10. Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to help define sin Romans 7:7

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm familiar with the various terminology and a few decades ago tried to track it all through the Text in Hebrew and Greek. I recall it being a difficult task and seem to recall many inconsistencies in English translations.

Have you come across any scripture that says we don't have to keep any of God's commandments? I think the context of the scripture trumps any category, but I have never seen scripture that says we do not have to keep God's commandments.

 

[GDL]

I think a lot of people try to put "the law" as just commandments, but scripture does not define it that way.

Sorry. Reading your post over again.

Agree. But I'd have to refresh and see if any of the terms were not given as commands in form. IOW, for example, God commands ____ ordinance or statute.

 

[GDL]

According to the scripture...

Neh 9:13 “You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments.

This is what I meant in my post #69 (looking at several English translations and the Hebrew and the Greek LXX - the ESV seems to me to be pretty good here:

ESV Nehemiah 9:14 and you made known to them your holy Sabbath and commanded them commandments and statutes and a law by Moses your servant.

This is the type of language that makes some of the distinctions like 9:13 maybe not so precise. If God commanded a statute, might it be referred to elsewhere as a commandment? This question is not to you, but my thought process expressed.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is what I meant in my post #69 (looking at several English translations and the Hebrew and the Greek LXX - the ESV seems to me to be pretty good here:

ESV Nehemiah 9:14 and you made known to them your holy Sabbath and commanded them commandments and statutes and a law by Moses your servant.

This is the type of language that makes some of the distinctions like 9:13 maybe not so precise. If God commanded a statute, might it be referred to elsewhere as a commandment? This question is not to you, but my thought process expressed.

I don't see the confusion here with this statement, sorry if I'm a bit dense.

I see the ordinances of sacrifices pretty consistent in scripture and much different than the Ten Commandments.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Exodus 12:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover:
Ezekiel 43:18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it.
2 Chronicles 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.


I think context of scripture is more important to determining its meaning and sometimes we have to work backwards to understand scripture. For example, if we see God's Ten Commandments in His heavenly Temple than there could never be any scripture deleting any of these commandments, so there must be an error in our interpterion, which is usually explained through context if allowed.

 

[GDL]

Have you come across any scripture that says we don't have to keep any of God's commandments? I think the context of the scripture trumps any category, but I have never seen scripture that says we do not have to keep God's commandments.

My answer is what I mentioned above about terminology. For example, a statute commanded could be referred to at times as a commandment. In which case I'd have to say, yes, I [may well have] seen instances where some commandments were temporary.

I think the study is simply what pertains to the new era in Christ? And I think God has left us with this intricate study, especially when Paul, for example, references 5 of the 10 and "if there is any other commandment" to describe Love Neighbor.

 

[GDL]

I don't see the confusion here with this statement, sorry if I'm a bit dense.

I see the ordinances of sacrifices pretty consistent in scripture and much different than the Ten Commandments.

No apology necessary and my seeing you as a bit dense is far from reality.

You seem to be narrowing ordinances down to sacrifices (only?). I'd have to see this stated succinctly somewhere in the Text.

I do take note of the verses you've supplied. Thank you!

This is the type of language that makes some of the distinctions like 9:13 maybe not so precise. If God commanded a statute, might it be referred to elsewhere as a commandment?

The main point I was attempting to express is now highlighted. IOW, I'm not so certain statutes or ordinances are not called commandments at times in our Text. So, I'd be seeking the confirmation and clarity that some part of Scripture shows succinctly what is what.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No apology necessary and my seeing you as a bit dense is far from reality.

You seem to be narrowing ordinances down to sacrifices (only?). I'd have to see this stated succinctly somewhere in the Text.

I do take note of the verses you've supplied. Thank you!


The main point I was attempting to express is now highlighted. IOW, I'm not so certain statutes or ordinances are not called commandments at times in our Text. So, I'd be seeking the confirmation and clarity that some part of Scripture shows succinctly what is what.

I don't think ordinances are only sacrifices, but it seems to be the context used in Col 2:14 and I agree think I have seen ordinance and/or statues being used as commandments, which is why the context of scripture is vital for our understanding.

The Ten Commandments are much broader than stated as Jesus shows an example of this Matthew 5:21-30 and most sin can be categorized under the umbrella of one of these commandments and can be summarized as loving God and loving neighbor.

Good conversation, but I need to run for now, will check in a little later.

 

[Leaf473]

Why not?

Lots of great ideas in your post, I'm going to answer in several posts.

Here is why there are things that we do out of love for our neighbor that will overlap with things talked about in the law of Moses, but it doesn't thereby follow that those parts of the law of Moses are in effect today:

Christians today try to avoid murder.

It is against the law in North Korea to murder.

Therefore, Christians are under the laws of North Korea.

The conclusion doesn't follow from the two givens.

Similarly,

Christian women try to avoid having sex with animals.

It is against the law of Moses for a woman to have sex with an animal.

Therefore, Christian women are under the law of Moses.

Again, the conclusion doesn't follow from the givens.

But now, let's talk about the best way of all: Suppose I speak in the languages of humans or angels. If I don’t have love, I am only a loud gong or a noisy cymbal.
-based, of course, on 1 Corinthians

 

[Leaf473]

Probably, but this can get to be quite a process. Wouldn't you find it easier to start researching the 2 documents listed in your quote above and make your own list?

I have, and I've found that it doesn't work. If you have found that it does work, then please post your results so far. I understand it can be quite a lot. Maybe there is a methodical way to do it. Maybe start at the beginning of Leviticus?

We could also move to a different thread, if you wish.

"When therefore it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were locked where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Judeans, Jesus came and stood in the middle, and said to them, 'Peace be to you.' "
-John

 

[Leaf473]

...described in some detail by Paul and having to do with knowledge and more succinctly described in late Hebrews5 and into 6...

My post is off topic for the thread, but I'm not at all convinced that Paul wrote Hebrews.

But it's a great book,
"Σκιὰν γὰρ ἔχων ὁ νόμος" the law casts a single shadow, not a collection of shadows.

 

[Leaf473]

The only laws I see in scripture ending are the laws of ordinances Col 2:14, Eph 2:15 Hebrews 10:1-10 as these were temporary laws added after the fall of man all pointing to Jesus and His great Sacrifice for the penalty of our sins. The law of the earthy priesthood changed as well since Jesus is our High Priest and Mediator of God's New Covenant promise.

If you're saying that we show our love for God by keeping the statutes, that they still remain, I disagree. In Exodus 27,
You shall command the children of Israel, that they bring to you pure olive oil beaten for the light, to cause a lamp to burn continually. In the Tent of Meeting, outside the veil which is before the covenant, Aaron and his sons shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the Lord: it shall be a statute forever throughout their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If you're saying that we show our love for God by keeping the statutes, that they still remain, I disagree. In Exodus 27,
You shall command the children of Israel, that they bring to you pure olive oil beaten for the light, to cause a lamp to burn continually. In the Tent of Meeting, outside the veil which is before the covenant, Aaron and his sons shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the Lord: it shall be a statute forever throughout their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

Well, that's not surprising we don't agree and the scripture says for this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3.

Oil is symbolic for the Holy Spirit. In the parable of the Ten Virgins the problem was the oil, 5 virgins had enough for their lamps, 5 others did not, so having oil burn continually I would consider it to be a statue forever.

 

[Leaf473]

Well, that's not surprising we don't agree and the scripture says for this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3.

Oil is symbolic for the Holy Spirit. In the parable of the Ten Virgins the problem was the oil, 5 virgins had enough for their lamps, 5 others did not, so having oil burn continually I would consider it to be a statue forever.

Actually, I think we agree on quite a few things

We both agree that we show love for God by keeping his commandments.

And it looks to me like we both agree that things in the law of Moses that are forever
are done symbolically, not literally.

And I'll say a big Amen to that!

Psalm 133
A Song of Ascents. By David.
See how good and how pleasant it is for brothers and sisters to live together in unity!