Daniel Dulcich's Rebuttal to "10 Commandments show How to Love".

[Soyeong]

Amen! And if that corresponds to some, but only some, of the law of Moses, then we have a great topic for discussion

Christ was not in disagreement with what the Father commanded, but rather he spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law bye word and by example, so what reason do you have to think that the Law of Christ is something different than or contrary to the Law of Moses?

 

[pasifika]

So if we have God's righteousness in the New Covenant, would we be keeping the law of God through faith, or breaking God's law?

Gods Righteousness is the end result for both Law and Faith. In other words, Gods Law is the Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS, and LOVE is the fulfillment of His Law. As i stated before the way for Righteousness by the LAW (Old covenant) is based on man's own work in achieving it apart from GOD, whereas under NC is all Gods works apart from man. So, the result in following the OC law is just mans righteousness (like filthy rags) Not God Righteousness.

 

[GDL]

Well, it's to help them see that it can't be done. Or to show me that it can be

The misaligned road is neither here nor there. That's just what the picture happened to be about.

This doesn't have to be, like, something super intense. It's a discussion forum about the law. It's good to talk about the law. You believe that some parts of the law of Moses are still in effect for Christians today? Interesting. When you know which ones, or if you're willing to say which ones you've decided so far, I think that would make the discussion more efficient

You shall talk of these laws when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.
Deuteronomy 6

You're joking. You've never done the work and say it can't be done. You supply a picture depicting a failed project and say it's neither here nor there but you supplied it to mean something. You've been given several points of God's Law from Mosaic Law that are obviously meant for the Christian Life and ignore them and act like you've been given none.

Some of us do think this is a serious topic. You've presented failed logic and ignored the primacy of God's Law in His creation. You haven't proven the work can't be done, nor that it hasn't been done to whatever degree already. You haven't proven that the points given to you or others on this thread are wrong. Basically, you've proven nothing but your lack of taking the topic seriously. Fair enough. Noted.

 

[GDL]

Can you see a difference between

a discussion about the theory of pouring concrete

and

a discussion about planning to make a concrete patio?

Hopefully the above words come across as pleasant. That's how they're intended
Proverbs 16
Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.

Can you see the correlation between keeping (obeying) and putting into practice? Guess not.

 

[Soyeong]

Gods Righteousness is the end result for both Law and Faith. In other words, Gods Law is the Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS, and LOVE is the fulfillment of His Law. As i stated before the way for Righteousness by the LAW (Old covenant) is based on man's own work in achieving it apart from GOD, whereas under NC is all Gods works apart from man. So, the result in following the OC law is just mans righteousness (like filthy rags) Not God Righteousness.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to have faith in God to correctly divide between right and wrong is by obeying His law, while it is contradictory to think man obediently relying on what God has instructed is man's own work apart from God. If it were man's own work apart from God, then it would not involve relying on anything that God has instructed. God does not command filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). Righteousness was never the result of obeying God's law, but rather becoming righteous is intrinsically part of becoming someone who does what is righteous through faith in obedience to God's law, which is why whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous (1 John 3:7).

In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of becoming righteous by grace through faith. In Romans 3:21-22, the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ, so there is no such thing as becoming righteous through our own works apart from God. God is righteousness, so there is no righteousness apart from the nature of who He is. To say that God is righteous is to say that He does what is righteous, so there is no separating becoming righteous from becoming someone who does what is righteous, and God's law is His instructions for how to do what is righteous.

 

[pasifika]

The Old Covenant is first found in Eden "Obey and Live" - but then Adam disobeyed.

Every human on Earth is under that same covenant as a lost sinner - until they accept the Gospel as we see in Rom 3:19-20.

But those in both OT and NT that accept the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 (and as quoted verbatim in Heb 8;6-12) is freed from condemnation of the Law but STILL is subject to the same LAW of God that says to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 and says "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 as being the Law that "defines what sin is" 1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law" . Jer 31 says God writes that very same law on the heart and mind under the New Covenant.

hi Bob, The old covenant was established in Sinai between God and Israel after He brought them out of Egypt. As clearly written in the writings of Moses OT and the Apostles NT.
Also, to note this covenant in Sinai is Not the same Covenant in which God made with their fathers (ie Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) Deut 5:2,3. This is due to the different condition of the two covenants, ie the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob is based on Gods promises and Gods power in fulfilling His promises. whereas the covenant with the children of Israel in Sinai is about the people fulfilling or obeying all Gods commands, instructions etc based on their own will or works. Exodus 19;8

 

[pasifika]

Hi @GDL , i will try to response to your post #111 here, as somehow i could not be able to reply directly to your post. so if i miss something you can ask again sorry.

ok, what i mean by "Gods works" in achieving for us His Righteousness, is whatever "means" God do to achieve Righteousness. ie gives wisdom, knowledge, faith, etc

these verses will explain what i meant by Gods works.

1 Corins 12-6.." There are different ways of working, but the same God who works all things in All people.

Philippians 2: 13.." For it is God who works In you, both to will and to work for His good purpose.

philippians 1:6.." Being confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in You will continue until the day of Christ..

so, is not that "we" are working "with" God But is God who worked In us.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Gods Righteousness is the end result for both Law and Faith. In other words, Gods Law is the Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS, and LOVE is the fulfillment of His Law.

God’s law is righteous Psalms 119:172 and love to God is the fulfillment of the law when keeping.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments

As i stated before the way for Righteousness by the LAW (Old covenant) is based on man's own work in achieving it apart from GOD, whereas under NC is all Gods works apart from man.

As shown clearly in Hebrews 11 righteousness has always been through faith but you still did not answer my question….

If we have God's righteousness in the New Covenant, would we be keeping the law of God through faith, or breaking God's law?

So, the result in following the OC law is just mans righteousness (like filthy rags) Not God Righteousness.

God never condemned people for keeping His commandments, only breaking them. Deut 28:15 Jesus also condemned those who do not keep God’s commandments Matthew 15:3-9 All of God’s commandments are perfect Psalms 19:7, Righteous Psalms 119:172 and Truth Psalms 119:151 and you seem to be trying to make the opposite argument for some reason, like obeying is bad or God would ask us to keep something we can’t, instead obedience is what leads us to righteousness Romans 6:16 Romans 5:19 and converting the soul Psalms 19:7 and obedience shows you have faith. James 2:22 If you have faith in God does that faith lead you to believe and trust what God commands of His children? How can one have faith in God, but not faith in His righteous commandments? It is not the law that makes one righteous, it is faith in God, but when you have faith you DO what God asks, instead of hearing and not doing James 1:22 Revelation 22:14

Righteousness is by faith Romans 1:17 The faithful uphold God’s law Romans 3:31 and is a fruit of God’s saints (saved) Revelation 14:12

 

[HIM]

hi Bob, The old covenant was established in Sinai between God and Israel after He brought them out of Egypt. As clearly written in the writings of Moses OT and the Apostles NT.
Also, to note this covenant in Sinai is Not the same Covenant in which God made with their fathers (ie Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) Deut 5:2,3. This is due to the different condition of the two covenants, ie the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob is based on Gods promises and Gods power in fulfilling His promises. whereas the covenant with the children of Israel in Sinai is about the people fulfilling or obeying all Gods commands, instructions etc based on their own will or works. Exodus 19;8

More to it than that. It has always been about relying on God and His promises and power.

 

[GDL]

Hi @GDL , i will try to response to your post #111 here, as somehow i could not be able to reply directly to your post. so if i miss something you can ask again sorry.

ok, what i mean by "Gods works" in achieving for us His Righteousness, is whatever "means" God do to achieve Righteousness. ie gives wisdom, knowledge, faith, etc

these verses will explain what i meant by Gods works.

1 Corins 12-6.." There are different ways of working, but the same God who works all things in All people.

Philippians 2: 13.." For it is God who works In you, both to will and to work for His good purpose.

philippians 1:6.." Being confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in You will continue until the day of Christ..

so, is not that "we" are working "with" God But is God who worked In us.

Thanks for letting me know you're having the same problems with this site. Reply doesn't work for me either at times. The site is still buggy in more than one way.

I'm OK with God being the means, but not with your last statement - I see both with and in being correct. Phil2:12-13 and the other verses I supplied makes it clear that we do work and "with God" seems appropriate. Luke 8 soils parable says how important productivity is. Phil2:13 essentially says God is using His capabilities to give us the capabilities to desire and to do for His good pleasure. This is His enabling us and I'd view Jesus' vine and branches lesson as telling us the same thing - apart from Him we can do nothing - in union with Him He provides what's needed for us to produce/work/accomplish. So, the goal is for us to work - to be productive. In Phil2:12 we're commanded to accomplish by work our salvation with fear and trembling. So, with the capabilities He provides we do the work we're commanded to do. The fear and trembling here in context and in essence meaning to do what we're told and not work at cross-purposes to what He's doing in us. To work with Him and not against Him.

I'd have to hear some wisdom that convinces me that this is not working with Him. Isn't this what the dominion mandate was all about from the beginning? He provides the garden, and He provides the existence and the bodies and the spirit from Him for us to work on the garden in union with Him. He provides the new heart and spirit and His Spirit, etc., and His Salvation, and we work on our gifted Salvation with Him. IMO the works pendulum has been swung too far to the other side in an effort to protect from the wrong view. Now it too is wrong. The right view is centered between the extremes. It's always been about working faithfully with Him in and with what He provides.

 

[GDL]

God’s law is righteous Psalms 119:172 and love to God is the fulfillment of the law when keeping.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments

A few comments and adding to your work if I may:

• First of all, nice work. The "like" clicks are too limited.
• Love for God and Neighbor and one another is fulfillment of Law. Jesus interlinked Love God and Neighbor (Matt22:39). John followed and elaborated (1John4:20-21).

As shown clearly in Hebrews 11 righteousness has always been through faith but you still did not answer my question….

If we have God's righteousness in the New Covenant, would we be keeping the law of God through faith, or breaking God's law?

Interesting question. Would be interesting to see how all would respond to it.

God never condemned people for keeping His commandments, only breaking them. Deut 28:15 Jesus also condemned those who do not keep God’s commandments Matthew 15:3-9 All of God’s commandments are perfect Psalms 19:7, Righteous Psalms 119:172 and Truth Psalms 119:151 and you seem to be trying to make the opposite argument for some reason, like obeying is bad or God would ask us to keep something we can’t, instead obedience is what leads us to righteousness Romans 6:16 Romans 5:19 and converting the soul Psalms 19:7 and obedience shows you have faith. James 2:22 If you have faith in God does that faith lead you to believe and trust what God commands of His children? How can one have faith in God, but not faith in His righteous commandments? It is not the law that makes one righteous, it is faith in God, but when you have faith you DO what God asks, instead of hearing and not doing James 1:22 Revelation 22:14

Righteousness is by faith Romans 1:17 The faithful uphold God’s law Romans 3:31 and is a fruit of God’s saints (saved) Revelation 14:12

Nicely done.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

A few comments and adding to your work if I may:

• First of all, nice work. The "like" clicks are too limited.
• Love for God and Neighbor and one another is fulfillment of Law. Jesus interlinked Love God and Neighbor (Matt22:39). John followed and elaborated (1John4:20-21).

Yes of course, I should not have left out love to neighbor and both love to God and neighbor is the fulfillment of the law, 1 John 5:2-3 thanks for catching that.

Interesting question. Would be interesting to see how all would respond to it.

Nicely done.

Thanks.

I have a question for you….

What do you think of these two scriptures…

Exodus 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Obviously speaking about the Ten Commandments, the work of God, all of God’s work is perfect Deut 32:4

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We are ordained to do good work and the Ten Commandments are the definition of what good works are. What are your thoughts about the link of these two scriptures.

 

[GDL]

I have a question for you….

What do you think of these two scriptures…

Exodus 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Obviously speaking about the Ten Commandments, the work of God, all of God’s work is perfect Deut 32:4

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We are ordained to do good work and the Ten Commandments are the definition of what good works are. What are your thoughts about the link of these two scriptures.

Some quick thoughts:

I think your links are meaningful. God wrote Law on stone and now writes in minds and on hearts. It's His writing project - His workmanship - in Christ in Spirit that is conforming us to Christlikeness as we remain in Him by keeping His commandments (John15:10).

I think Paul continues some of this in Philippians where he starts out in prayer speaking of God completing His work in us Phil1:6 - then proceeds to tie this to love abounding in us Phil1:9 (you know as well as anybody what Biblical Love is) so we can value the excellent things (sticking with English translations for the moment - notice the tie to Rom2:18 & Torah) and be pure and blameless/without offense until the day of Christ - all this is done by having been filled with the fruit of righteousness (opposite of sin/lawlessness/unrighteousness - once again words based in and from Law) which are through Jesus Christ to God's glory. The day of Christ will be judgement - more legality.

As Paul proceeds, he will build and elaborate on this and in Phil3 he'll tie this to the righteousness from God not from Law but through Faith. And I've seen you explain what this entails. Through Faith Righteousness we can be slaves of righteousness (Rom6; 1John 3:7; 1John3:10) as commanded and defeat sin, which is unrighteousness and lawlessness (1John5:17; 1John3:4). IOW, we'll be conformed to God's Law.

There are many ways to feed off of your links and the elaboration only grows with more Scripture. The problem for the antinomian is that this is all legal language tied to God's Law and His Grace. And you know the 10C are essentially headings that are expanded in God's Law. Paul uses this when he summarizes some of the 10 as Love Neighbor (which is also Love for God which is more of the 10) and adds the catch all "and if there is any other commandment" which infers there is, as we know. Additionally, what Christ did was extensively legality. It boggles me how people can think that God deals with all this legality and then throws Law away rather than conforming us to His legal, righteous, just, standards through faith-obedience in Christ in Spirit.

 

[GDL]

We are ordained to do good work and the Ten Commandments are the definition of what good works are. What are your thoughts about the link of these two scriptures.

Having gotten a bit wordy and side-tracked in response to you, but making a case that His work in us is related to writing His Law in our hearts, increasing our love, faith-righteousness and our doing righteousness, a few thoughts about good works:

• I don't think the 10C defines good works, maybe they are a part of what good work are, but that His Law on our hearts is part of what enable us to do good works in Christ in Spirit
• Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. (2 Tim. 2:21 NKJ)
  • Note the before and after context re: ungodliness (so, vs. godliness) (2Tim2:16) (my long definition from studying this word in varying contexts is: living a willingly, obedient, righteous & holy life as Jesus Christ did) & unrighteousness (so, vs. righteousness) (2Tim2:19) then (2Tim2:22) the commanded pursuit of righteousness, faith, love, peace.. Once again, some Law related words surrounding "good works."
• Note Heb10:24 re: good works and how it's correlated to love. Then Heb10:26 in explanation contrasts to sinning willfully.
• Note Titus2:14 how zealous for good works is based in His redeeming us from "all lawlessness" and cleansing us.
• Note Titus1:16 that one of the things that negates good works is disobedience.

IOW, there are a lot of works we do but to be good works that God has created us anew to do, we must be in faith-obedience to Him, being godly, righteous, loving Him, Neighbor, One Another as He commands, redeemed from all lawlessness, not being willfully lawless, being cleansed by & for Christ, etc. So, His commandments in us and willingly lived by us is part of our doing good works. So good works are according to Love which is according to His Commandments - based in being in Christ, walking in Spirit.

Hopefully this makes some sense.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Having gotten a bit wordy and side-tracked in response to you, but making a case that His work in us is related to writing His Law in our hearts, increasing our love, faith-righteousness and our doing righteousness, a few thoughts about good works:

• I don't think the 10C defines good works, maybe they are a part of what good work are, but that His Law on our hearts is part of what enable us to do good works in Christ in Spirit
• Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. (2 Tim. 2:21 NKJ)
  • Note the before and after context re: ungodliness (so, vs. godliness) (2Tim2:16) (my long definition from studying this word in varying contexts is: living a willingly, obedient, righteous & holy life as Jesus Christ did) & unrighteousness (so, vs. righteousness) (2Tim2:19) then (2Tim2:22) the commanded pursuit of righteousness, faith, love, peace.. Once again, some Law related words surrounding "good works."
• Note Heb10:24 re: good works and how it's correlated to love. Then Heb10:26 in explanation contrasts to sinning willfully.
• Note Titus2:14 how zealous for good works is based in His redeeming us from "all lawlessness" and cleansing us.
• Note Titus1:16 that one of the things that negates good works is disobedience.

IOW, there are a lot of works we do but to be good works that God has created us anew to do, we must be in faith-obedience to Him, being godly, righteous, loving Him, Neighbor, One Another as He commands, redeemed from all lawlessness, not being willfully lawless, being cleansed by & for Christ, etc. So, His commandments in us and willingly lived by us is part of our doing good works. So good works are according to Love which is according to His Commandments - based in being in Christ, walking in Spirit.

Hopefully this makes some sense.

Makes perfect sense, I appreciate your comments and I will digest them further and may comment at a later time.

God bless!

 

[Leaf473]

Christ was not in disagreement with what the Father commanded, but rather he spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law bye word and by example, so what reason do you have to think that the Law of Christ is something different than or contrary to the Law of Moses?

Soyeong, my man, how's it going?

So it turns out "the law of Christ" is used only once that I can find.

It's there near the end of Galatians,
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

But just shortly before he says,
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

I think "the whole law" refers to the law of Moses.

But that's differentiated from "the law of Christ".

I see that the fulfilling of each has different focuses.

A passage that maybe relates,
...all things which are written in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me must be fulfilled.”
Luke 24

 

[Leaf473]

You're joking. You've never done the work and say it can't be done.

I started the work, and saw that there wasn't a way to complete it in a way that was consistent.

You supply a picture depicting a failed project and say it's neither here nor there but you supplied it to mean something.

It's neither here nor there that it's a bridge or a misaligned road. It could just as easily have been a picture of something else that appears to be working out until you get close to the end

You've been given several points of God's Law from Mosaic Law that are obviously meant for the Christian Life and ignore them and act like you've been given none.

I don't doubt that a person can find some laws in the law of Moses and believe they are for today. But it's in trying to come up with a complete list that I think a person will start to see inconsistencies.

 

[Leaf473]

Some of us do think this is a serious topic.

I think it's serious, too. But it's also a discussion on an internet forum. It corresponds to talking about the law as we walk along the road, etc. It doesn't have to be something, like, super intense.

 

[Leaf473]

You've presented failed logic...

What is the failed logic that you believe I presented? I thought you had agreed with it?

 

[Leaf473]

You haven't proven the work can't be done...

That's correct. What I can say is that I haven't seen any list, produced by someone who believes that only part of the law of Moses is in effect for Christians today, that is both reasonable and complete.

When we first started chatting on this thread, one thing I said was,

That's also where things get fuzzy, based on my experience in talking to my brothers and sisters who feel that way.

If you can see farther than I can, great! If you would like to share your experience of finding that kind of list, I'm interested