Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21 same event?

[Small Fish]

No, the generation Jesus was talking about was the generation of the fig tree

 

[claninja]

What about the final versus of Daniel 12 and references to 1290 days and 1335 days from the abomination of Desolation? If we date, the abomination of Desolation to 70aD.

If we count back 1290 days from the AOD (destruction of temple and Jerusalem) that brings us pretty close to when eleazar stopped the daily sacrifice for gentiles. Considering the civil wars that were occurring between zealot factions from 66ad-70ad, it’s highly unlikely that all other sacrifices continued as prescribed by the law.

So it seems like revelations keeps splitting. Eschatological passages from Daniel and Ezekiel into multiple separate events.

Absolutely possible. I however, don’t read revelation as splitting prophecy, but as symbolic parallel visions that all tell the same story from different view points. Because of the symbolic nature of revelation. I tend to view revelation through the lends of the the OT and NT and not the other way around.

 

[claninja]

No, the generation Jesus was talking about was the generation of the fig tree

No, all of the ‘you’ are 2nd person, meaning Jesus was talking directly to them about what they would see. If the ‘you’s’ throughout the discourse were 3rd person ‘generic’ you’s, I would say you have a point.

Jesus uses ‘this generation’ multiple times throughout the gospels, why is the ‘this generation’ the only one doesn’t refer to the generation standing in front of him?

Additionally, simply stating no, it’s about the fig tree generation, doesn’t address all the verses I posted about the apostles believing their generation was living at the end of the age.

 

[Small Fish]

No, all of the ‘you’ are 2nd person, meaning Jesus was talking directly to them about what they would see. If the ‘you’s’ throughout the discourse were 3rd person ‘generic’ you’s, I would say you have a point.

Jesus uses ‘this generation’ multiple times throughout the gospels, why is the ‘this generation’ the only one doesn’t refer to the generation standing in front of him?

Additionally, simply stating no, it’s about the fig tree generation, doesn’t address all the verses I posted about the apostles believing their generation was living at the end of the age.

How do you guys always get it so wrong. Never right, always wrong. I mean, it's like my three year old. Whenever she puts on her own shoes, she manage to get it on the wrong way around. Banana feet we call them. Every time, I kid you not, always the wrong way, never the right way. No matter how much I explain it to her. I always wonder why that is. Theoretically there should be a 50/50% chance to get it the right way around. Right? Anyway, that is what you guys remind me of. Only difference is that she is only three, so she's got more of an excuse than you do.

 

[A71]

Get what wrong?

 

[claninja]

How do you guys always get it so wrong. Never right, always wrong. I mean, it's like my three year old. Whenever she puts on her own shoes, she manage to get it on the wrong way around. Banana feet we call them. Every time, I kid you not, always the wrong way, never the right way. No matter how much I explain it to her. I always wonder why that is. Theoretically there should be a 50/50% chance to get it the right way around. Right? Anyway, that is what you guys remind me of. Only difference is that she is only three, so she's got more of an excuse than you do.

Kettle calling the pot black just a little here. Comparing those with a different view from you to your 3 old child instead of addressing the evidence does nothing to contribute. Not sure why you are on this website discussing biblical topics without providing evidence for your claim. You outright ignore that the apostles believed they were living at the end of th age, and also ignore the Greek grammar of the 2nd person ‘you’ throughout the olivet discourse. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but to compare some to a 3 year old for a different opinion, without acknowledging the evidence, is ironically juvenile

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No, the generation Jesus was talking about was the generation of the fig tree

I love fig newtons........

Matthew 21:21
So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree,
but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up! and be cast! into the sea,'
it will be done.


Revelation 8:8
Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea,
and a third of the sea became blood.

Fig tree is also mentioned in Revelation

Matthew 24:32
“Now learn this parable from the fig tree:
When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.

Mark 13:28
“Now learn this parable from the fig tree:
When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.

Luke 21:29
Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.

Revelation 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell to the earth,
as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Joel 1:12
The vine has dried up,
And the fig tree has withered;
The pomegranate tree,
The palm tree also,
And the apple tree—
All the trees of the field are withered;
Surely joy has withered away from the sons of men.

 

[Small Fish]

It's the jews. When they start budding. Come back to their homeland. They are waiting for their Messiah. The started coming back after the second world war 1948. So we are now 70 years past that. This generation shall not pass. So we must be close now.

 

[A71]

The generation was that generation.

The fig tree represents the Levitical Priesthood, and by extension the Temple, as
That is where they resided, the two things being by inference synonymous, (as say 'the city' of London is synonymous with banking.)

For brevity, the fig tree refers to the rebuilding of the Temple

 

[Small Fish]

A71 So you say Jesus made a mistake?

 

[A71]

Are you asking a loaded question?

 

[A71]

I am not sure what your question is.
The Jews bore fruit, they became the Church.
The Levitical Priesthood is obsolete.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No, all of the ‘you’ are 2nd person, meaning Jesus was talking directly to them about what they would see. If the ‘you’s’ throughout the discourse were 3rd person ‘generic’ you’s, I would say you have a point.

Jesus uses ‘this generation’ multiple times throughout the gospels, why is the ‘this generation’ the only one doesn’t refer to the generation standing in front of him?

Additionally, simply stating no, it’s about the fig tree generation, doesn’t address all the verses I posted about the apostles believing their generation was living at the end of the age.

How do you guys always get it so wrong. Never right, always wrong. I mean, it's like my three year old. Whenever she puts on her own shoes, she manage to get it on the wrong way around. Banana feet we call them. Every time, I kid you not, always the wrong way, never the right way. No matter how much I explain it to her. I always wonder why that is. Theoretically there should be a 50/50% chance to get it the right way around. Right? Anyway, that is what you guys remind me of. Only difference is that she is only three, so she's got more of an excuse than you do.

Get what wrong?

Kettle calling the pot black just a little here. Comparing those with a different view from you to your 3 old child instead of addressing the evidence does nothing to contribute. Not sure why you are on this website discussing biblical topics without providing evidence for your claim. You outright ignore that the apostles believed they were living at the end of th age, and also ignore the Greek grammar of the 2nd person ‘you’ throughout the olivet discourse. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but to compare some to a 3 year old for a different opinion, without acknowledging the evidence, is ironically juvenile

Small Fish does appear to be a little confused on the Fig tree and generation but then again he voted no concerning Luke and Daniel being the same event.....


.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A71 So you say Jesus made a mistake?

I am not sure what your question is.
The Jews bore fruit, they became the Church.
The Levitical Priesthood is obsolete.

The Jews couldn't comprehend what Jesus meant by destroying their physical Temple and rebuilding it in 3 days [heck, that would have been difficult even for me to comprehend if I heard that].
They must have forgot about Daniel.....

Dan 2:34 Thou wast looking till that a stone hath been cut out without hands,
Dan 2:45 Because that thou hast seen that out of the mountain cut hath been a stone without hands,

Mark 14:58
'We heard him saying -- I will throw down this sanctuary made with hands,
and by three days, another made without hands I will build;'
Mark 15:29
And those passing by were speaking evil of him, shaking their heads, and saying, 'Ah, the thrower down of the sanctuary, and in three days the builder!

1 Pe 2:7
to you, then, who are believing is the preciousness;
and to the unbelieving, a stone that the builders disapproved of, this one did become for the head of a corner,

The 70ad physical Temple and Sanctuary was demolished stone by stone in 70ad

Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”

The earthly 1st century Sanctuary/Priesthood:

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it

The heavenly Sanctuary:

Revelation 11:19
And opened was the Sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His sanctuary,

The final bowl of Wrath on the 1st century Great City, Temple and Sanctuary:

Revelation16:17
And the seventh Messenger did pour out his vial to the air,
and there came forth a great Voice from the Sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, 'It hath come!'

Revelation 21:22
And a Sanctuary I did not see in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, is its Sanctuary, and the Lamb,

Act 7:48
'But the Most High in sanctuaries made with hands doth not dwell, according as the prophet saith:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves -- are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance. Many eminent and learned men have employed their pens in the illustration of it ; but the fruits of their labours are, for the most part, contained in large and expensive works, out of the reach of numbers, to whom the discussion might prove equally interesting and improving. For the use and gratification of such, the present Treatise, in a more accessible and familiar form, is diffidently offered to the public. In order that it might be better adapted for the general reader, critical inquiries and tedious details are equally avoided ; but it has been the care of the writer not to omit any important fact or argument that, in his opinion, tended to elucidate the subject. Countenanced by the example of many respectable names, he has ventured to introduce the extraordinary prodigies, which, according to Josephus, preceded the destruction of the Holy City. He has also added a few sentences in their defense, but he does not intend thereby to express his unqualified admission of their genuineness.[ /quote]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Douggg said: ↑
No, Luke 21:23 is 70 AD. Daniel 12:1 is end times.

so if 70ad is when the days of vengeance occur, to fulfill ALL that is written, what is left to be fulfilled at a 2000+ year later end time.
Luke 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

I am more elated that at least he views Luke 21 as 70ad. That is really indisputable.

Luke 21:20
Yet, whenever ye may be seeing the Jerusalem being surrounded by war-troops, then be ye knowing! that nigh the desolating of Her.

Jesus expounds more on Luke 21:2 in Luke 19:41-44

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her,
43 That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee,
and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
and shall be encompassing Thee,
and pressing Thee from-every-side.

I found it interesting that exact form of #2240 occurs in just 3 verses of Revelation.

2240. heko ἥκω (hēkō) a primary verb; occurs 29 times in 26 verses
to arrive, i.e. be present (literally or figuratively):--come.

Greek Concordance: ἥξουσιν (hēxousin) -- 6 Occurrences
ἥξουσιν (hēxousin) — 6 Occurrences
Matthew 8:11 V-FIA-3P
Luke 13:29 V-FIA-3P
Luke 19:43 V-FIA-3P

Revelation 3:9 V-FIA-3P
Revelation 15:4 V-FIA-3P
Revelation 18:8 V-FIA-3P

The phrase in Rev 3:9 concerning "false Judeans"
"shall be making them...shall be arriving and worshiping..........

is similar to the phrase in Reve 15:4 concerning "nations"
all the nations shall be arriving<2240> and shall be worshiping before Thee,

Revelation 3:9
Behold! I have given out of the synagogue of the Satan, of the ones saying themselves Judeans to be and not they are-being but are falsifying/false
Behold!
I shall be making them that they shall be arriving<2240> and shall be worshiping before thy feet and they may be knowing that I love thee.

Revelation 15:4 -
who may not fear<5399> Thee, O Lord, and should be glorifying Thy name, that only benign<3741>
that all the nations shall be arriving<2240> and shall be worshipping before Thee, that the just/awards<1345> of Thee were made manifest<5319>

Another Luke tie in with Revelation, one I hadn't noticed before.

Revelation 18:8
Thru this, in one day shall be arriving<2240> the blows/stripes of Her,
death and mourning<3997> and famine and in fire She shall be being burned<2618>
that strong LORD the God the One judging Her.

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her,
43 That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee
==========================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ;

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF.
"Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?".................................
In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.
================================================
............................

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
After the demolition of Jerusalem, what was left there to occupy?
The way Josephus describes it, it was almost like an atom bomb hit it..........

Matthew 24:15
“So when you see the abomination of desolation/erhmwsewV<2050> spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Mark 13:14
“But when you see the abomination of desolation/erhmwsewV<2050> standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains
Luke 21:20
"whenever yet ye may be seeing being surrounded by troops, the Jerusalem, then be knowing! that has-neared the desolating/erhmwsiV <2050> of Her"

Agreed think it's there for quite possible that Herod's temple originally stood over the Gihon spring. On Mount Zion. In the Davidic. Old city. And yet the Romans having dug up the foundations left no traces of it for modern archeologists. To find.

That is rather amazing......

.

 

[Erik Nelson]

That is rather amazing......

.

And I now understand that the Romans actually did leave some remains of the temple. For the next few centuries. Jews and others scavenged. The rubble. Absconding with fragments of the same. Until finally under Julian the apostate in 363ad Jews themselves destroyed all remaining traces of the temple. In the initial phases of there. Ultimately, fruitless attempt to rebuild it. They got as far as tearing everything remaining down to. Bedrock, foundations.

But as soon as they started trying to build back up. They quickly encountered insurmountable problems. Including earthquakes and what? Sounds like. Natural gas explosions. Which I would link to the known bubbling of the pool of Bethesda? Described in the gospels. Where people would wait around by the side of the pool until it bubbled? And the first to enter the pool would be healed. Well, a bubbling pool sounds like a natural gas seat. And that was in a pool relatively near too. The Temple Mount.

So I offer as a scientific explanation of the miracle. So called That natural gas seeped into the building site, perhaps from the Jews excavating down through so many layers of topsoil. Exposing the bedrock underneath. And. With natural gas in the air every time they swung a metal pick Sparks with fly and ignite the gas and create explosions.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And I now understand that the Romans actually did leave some remains of the temple. For the next few centuries. Jews and others scavenged. The rubble. Absconding with fragments of the same. Until finally under Julian the apostate in 363ad Jews themselves destroyed all remaining traces of the temple. In the initial phases of there. Ultimately, fruitless attempt to rebuild it. They got as far as tearing everything remaining down to. Bedrock, foundations.

But as soon as they started trying to build back up. They quickly encountered insurmountable problems. Including earthquakes and what? Sounds like. Natural gas explosions. Which I would link to the known bubbling of the pool of Bethesda? Described in the gospels. Where people would wait around by the side of the pool until it bubbled? And the first to enter the pool would be healed. Well, a bubbling pool sounds like a natural gas seat. And that was in a pool relatively near too. The Temple Mount.

So I offer as a scientific explanation of the miracle. So called That natural gas seeped into the building site, perhaps from the Jews excavating down through so many layers of topsoil. Exposing the bedrock underneath. And. With natural gas in the air every time they swung a metal pick Sparks with fly and ignite the gas and create explosions.

Very interesting Erick.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Here is some more info I added...........

6869 tsarah feminine of 6862;
tightness (i.e. figuratively, trouble); transitively, a female rival:--adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble.
H6869 צָרָה (tsarah), which occurs 73 times in 72 verses

Daniel 12:1
"In that time Michael shall stand-up, the chief/prince, the great, the one, standing over sons of thy people.
And time of distress<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation, until the time, that.
And in that time, thy people shall escape<4422>, Every of the one being found being written in scroll. Luke 21:23-36

2347. thlipsis from 2346;
pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
G2347 θλῖψις (thlipsis), occurs 45 times in 43 verses

Matthew 24:
9 - “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
21 for then shall be great Tribulation<2347>, such as was not from the beginning of world till now, no, nor may be becoming

Mark 13:19
For in those days shall be tribulation<2347> such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Luke rather uses great distress and wrath upon the Jews [which I and many others view happened in 70ad]

318. anagke from 303 and the base of 43;
constraint (literally or figuratively); by implication, distress:--distress, must needs, (of) necessity(-sary), needeth, needful.

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching<69>, in every season<2540> beseeching<1189> that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming
and to stand before the Son of the Man.[Daniel 12:1]

Poll results as of today

Are Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21:23 same event?

1. 
   Yes
   7 vote(s)
   53.8%
2. No
   4 vote(s)
   30.8%
3. Maybe
   2 vote(s)
   15.4%
4. Never thought about it
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
5. I don't know but am willing to learn
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
6. Other [please explain]
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Didn't the Jewish rulers and zealots cause the Roman army to destroy Jerusalem?
And was there ever a greater tribulation for the Jews before this one?

Daniel 12:1
"In that time Michael shall stand-up, the chief/prince, the great, the one, standing over sons of thy people.
And time of distress<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation, until the time, that.
And in that time, thy people shall escape<4422>, Every of the one being found being written in scroll. Luke 21:23-36

Matthew 24:
9 - “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
21 for then shall be great Tribulation<2347>, such as was not from the beginning of world till now, no, nor may be becoming

Mark 13:19
For in those days shall be tribulation<2347> such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Luke rather uses great distress and wrath upon the Jews [which I and many others view happened in 70ad]

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching<69>, in every season<2540> beseeching<1189> that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming
and to stand before the Son of the Man.[Daniel 12:1]