Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21 same event?

[Douggg]

so if 70ad is when the days of vengeance occur, to fulfill ALL that is written, what is left to be fulfilled at a 2000+ year later end time.
Luke 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Everything that will take place after Israel has returned to the land and has control of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is represented by the fig tree in the parable of the fig tree.

Luke 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined

 

[JIMINZ]

I am also interested in the what the old testament has to say on the times of the gentiles with regards to trampling jerusalem.

The only similar reference to gentiles trampling Jerusalem in the NT is Revelation 11:2, which has the gentiles trampling the city for 42 months

revelation 11:2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

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What would make you think you would ever find anything regarding the times of the Gentiles in the Old Testament?

 

[claninja]

Everything that will take place after Israel has returned to the land and has control of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is represented by the fig tree in the parable of the fig tree.

This doesn’t answer my question.
If Luke 21 is about 70ad, as we agree, and 70 ad is when the days of vengeance occur, to fulfill ALL that is written, what else is there to fulfill? How can there be more to fulfill if ALL is fulfilled in the days of vengeance in 70 ad?

 

[claninja]

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What would make you think you would ever find anything regarding the times of the Gentiles in the Old Testament?

I don’t think the phrase times of the gentiles exists in the OT.

But I don’t believe the ‘times of the gentiles’ was a new prophecy. I believe it’s roots are from the OT.

 

[Douggg]

This doesn’t answer my question.
If Luke 21 is about 70ad, as we agree, and 70 ad is when the days of vengeance ooccur, to fulfill ALL that is written, what else is there to fulfill? How can there be more to fulfill if ALL is fulfilled in the days of vengeance in 70 ad?

You want me to copy and paste all of the end times events in the bible? really?

No, I am not going to do that - simply because you do not understand Luke 21:22.


Luke 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined

 

[JIMINZ]

Everything that will take place after Israel has returned to the land and has control of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is represented by the fig tree in the parable of the fig tree.

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Luk 21:29-31
29) And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30) When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Who then are the other trees, because it says in (30) When they now shoot forth, if you basing your belief on a 1948 date, then what other Countries became Nations at the same time Israel did.

Notice in (30-31) that Jesus says.

Jesus was speaking to these people specifically.

ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Then Jesus says it again, explaining to them it's the Kingdom of God, not the Nation which he is speaking about.

So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Then take notice in (31-32)

Jesus was speaking to these people specifically

So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass,

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


You can't just pick Israel out of the TREES just because you only read one account of the Parable.

Mat 24:32-34
32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The end of it all is Jesus was speaking to those people who were That Generation which would see and experience the things which were coming.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Rev has 3 adversaries,

1. Babylon = Jerusalem (destroyed 70 AD)
2. Beast = pagan Roman empire (converted 4th century AD)
3. Gog & Magog = ??? (??? AD)

The 1st century readers of Rev witnessed #1
The Church Fathers witness #2
…
who then doubts that, sometime Biblically soon, humans on earth will witness "fire from the sky" and Final Judgement Day ?

 

[claninja]

You want me to copy and paste all of the end times events in the bible? really?

No, I want you to answer 1 question. If you believe Luke 21 is about 70ad, how can there be events fulfilled 2000 years later if 70ad’s days of vengeance fulfill ALL that is written.

simply because you do not understand Luke 21:22.

This is subjective. I could say the same about you. Let’s stick to objective arguments.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined

Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70ad no?

 

[claninja]

Rev has 3 adversaries,

1. Babylon = Jerusalem (destroyed 70 AD)
2. Beast = pagan Roman empire (converted 4th century AD)
3. Gog & Magog = ??? (??? AD)

The 1st century readers of Rev witnessed #1
The Church Fathers witness #2
…
who then doubts that, sometime Biblically soon, humans on earth will witness "fire from the sky" and Final Judgement Day ?

Wouldn’t #3 mean there is more to be fulfilled after the days of vengeance fulfills ALL that is written in 70ad?

 

[dqhall]

Note: I am attaching a poll thread and allowing members to change their vote if they wish .

I was studying more on Luke 21 and while looking at the greek word used in vs 21 for "distress", I decided to look to look at the hebrew word used in Daniel 12.

Let me put the verses down 1st:

6869 tsarah tsaw-raw'
feminine of 6862; tightness (i.e. figuratively, trouble); transitively, a female rival:--adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble.

Daniel 12:
1“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise.
There will be a time of distress<H6869> such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.
But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

318. anagke an-ang-kay'
from 303 and the base of 43; constraint (literally or figuratively); by implication, distress:--distress, must needs, (of) necessity(-sary), needeth, needful.

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress<G318> in the land and wrath upon this people.

Luke 21:20 (WEB - public domain) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let those who are in the midst of her depart. Let those who are in the country not enter therein. 22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who nurse infants in those days! For there will be great distress in the land, and wrath to this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Matthew 24:15 (World English Bible - public Domain) "When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take out things that are in his house. 18 Let him who is in the field not return back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are with child and to nursing mothers in those days! 20 Pray that your flight will not be in the winter, nor on a Sabbath, 21 for then there will be great oppression, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.

The first century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote about the 70 AD siege of Jerusalem and its destruction in his book, "Wars of the Jews." Conditions were so bad, gangs searched the city for food. Cannibalism of the bodies of those who died was reported. A man dug his grave and laid down in it as he knew he was going to die. More died of starvation than by the sword. When much of the city had died the Romans broke through killing and burning as they went. Some survivors were enslaved and deported by the Roman army under Titus.

The passages in Daniel, Matthew and Luke are similar, but not exactly the same. No doubt there have been numerous times throughout history when there was only a short time for people to flee for their lives without turning back for their belongings. Fourth century Christian historian Eusebius wrote in his book, "Ecclesiastical History," about the Roman siege of Jerusalem. Christians in Jerusalem saw the Roman army approaching and fled to the mountains across the Jordan to the city of Pella. Pella was a city of the Decapolis. They got out of town before the Roman army blocked the exits. Sometimes there is only a brief window of opportunity for people. Instinct may tempt people to stay with their belongings, but the wise forsook their possessions to save their lives.

 

[A71]

Yes, you've got it LLJ. If you read Daniel 12 closely you will see his prophecy terminates AD73 also.

V7.... and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The angel tells daniel that all these things (great tribulation, your people delivered, those who sleep rise again to contempt or life, and the righteous shining like the sun) will be completed after a time, times, and half of time when the power of israel is scattered.
Daniel 12:7 “It will be for a time, times and half a time.b When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

Does this mean that the tribulation, christians fleeing jerusalem, the resurrection, and the righteous shining like the sun, occurred in the 1st century?

If the time period is 42 months (time, times, half a time), then it was all finished a long time ago.

"Resurrection" is a toughy concerning 70ad. I may create a thread on that when I have time.............
What about Ezekiel 37 and Luke 2:34?

Ezekiel 37 [Luke 2:34/Revelation 11:11]
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of adam, these bones are the whole house of Israel.
They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'

In this verse, Luke mentions both a "falling and resurrection" for many in Israel:

Luke 2:34
And Simon blesses them and said toward Mariam, the mother of Him, "behold! this-One is set/lying for the Falling and Resurrection/anastasin <386> in many to-the Israel, and into a Sign spoken against"-- [Ezekiel 37 "valley of bones]

Here in Matt and Luke, it appears that Jesus literally came to a land of the "walking dead":

Matthew 4:16
The people who sat in darkness have seen a great Light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
a Light has dawned.”
Luke 1:79
To give Light to those who sit in darkness
and the shadow of death,
To guide our feet into the way of peace.”

Isaiah 9:2
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death, a light has dawned.

.

 

[claninja]

What about Ezekiel 37

Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled.

When Christ rose again and ascended to heaven to claim his kingdom, he sent the spirit, which spiritually resurrected Israel. Now the second death has no power over his body.

God now dwells with the body of Christ on earth in the spirit (his foostool) and with the body of christ that is in heaven (his throne). Prior to Christ, man was separated from God on earth (temple a picture of this. and as long as it stood, it symbolized the way to heaven was not yet revealed: hebrews 9:8-9) and in heaven (no one had ascended to the father John 3:13).

Ezekiel 43:7 and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever.

and Luke 2:34?

Many fell because of Christ and many rose. I would say that is fulfilled as well.

Matthew 21:41-43
“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they declared, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his fruits in their seasons.”

42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone.

This is from the Lord,

and it is marvelous in our eyes’j ?

43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.k 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled.

When Christ rose again and ascended to heaven to claim his kingdom, he sent the spirit, which spiritually resurrected Israel. Now the second death has no power over his body.

God now dwells with the body of Christ on earth in the spirit (his foostool) and with the body of christ that is in heaven (his throne). Prior to Christ, man was separated from God on earth (temple a picture of this. and as long as it stood, it symbolized the way to heaven was not yet revealed: hebrews 9:8-9) and in heaven (no one had ascended to the father John 3:13).

Ezekiel 43:7 and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever.

Many fell because of Christ and many rose. I would say that is fulfilled as well.

Matthew 21:41-43
“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they declared, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his fruits in their seasons.”

42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone.

This is from the Lord,

and it is marvelous in our eyes’j ?

43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.k 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Very interesting and enlightening post claninja.
I agree about Ezek 37 being fulfilled.........

Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled

 

[Douggg]

No, I want you to answer 1 question. If you believe Luke 21 is about 70ad, how can there be events fulfilled 2000 years later if 70ad’s days of vengeance fulfill ALL that is written.

I didn't imply Luke 21 as a whole is about 70ad. I referred to certain verses in Luke 21 are about 70 ad.

You are not understanding the verse (on purpose) because you are playing a game with the words "all that is written". Some-one could play just as an equally idiotic game by focusing on the "is written" part of "all that is written", and say does that mean what pharaoh wrote, or nimrod wrote, and other every written word in the history of man by anybody?

It is obviously referring to all that was written of what the prophets said regarding the destruction of the city and temple. Which I gave you the passage in Daniel 9:26, regarding the destruction of the temple and city.

Luke 21:
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

 

[A71]

The way I understand it LLJ is that a time of the end, 'eth qets', is introduced in 11:40.

This end-time refers to the period of rule of the fourth beast over Judea and Jerusalem, the beast being Rome, and the occupation beginning in 63BC when Pompey took Jerusalem, and ending obviously in 73AD when Rome had completed the gutting of Judea. In effect, this is the end of the Land of Israel that is in view.

Then in chp 12 we are told 'at that time', meaning in this end-time period. So all the events described occur in this window, e.g Jesus delivering the faithful.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I didn't say Luke 21 is about 70ad. I referred to certain verses in Luke 21 are about 70 ad.

Another words, you pick and choose which verses to use that fit your own doctrines?
Don't become like the corrupt Jewish rulers......

John 5:39
"Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having,
and those are the ones-testifying about Me".
Matthew 23:33
"Serpents! brood of vipers!
how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into ages to-ages.......... [Luke 16:24,26]

2 Peter 3:16
As also/and in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand
any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings

.

 

[claninja]

You are not understanding the verse (on purpose) because you are playing a game with the words "all that is written".

playing word games? I am asking a question about what Jesus said. Which for some reason, you won't directly answer.

Which I gave you the passage in Daniel 9:26, regarding the destruction of the temple and city.

Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70ad.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Wouldn’t #3 mean there is more to be fulfilled after the days of vengeance fulfills ALL that is written in 70ad?

You're quoting Daniel, yes?

The Days of Vengeance fulfilled all of Daniel in 70AD, but Revelation in the NT extends the view farther into the future, all the way to Final Judgement.

Is Final Judgement in Daniel ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You're quoting Daniel, yes?

The Days of Vengeance fulfilled all of Daniel in 70AD, but Revelation in the NT extends the view farther into the future, all the way to Final Judgement.

Is Final Judgement in Daniel ?

Do you view 70ad Jerusalem in Revelation or not?
Then we can talk about that "final judgement"....