Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21 same event?

Are Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21:23 same event?

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Douggg

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playing word games? I am asking a question about what Jesus said. Which for some reason, you won't directly answer.
I gave you the explanation of the "all that is written".... twice, three times if you go back and read my edited post in my first response. What you did was ask a loaded, presumptuous question, based on a purposed misunderstanding of "all that is written".... that presumes all of the prophecies of the bible have been fulfilled.
 
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Douggg

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Another words, you pick and choose which verses to use that fit your own doctrines?
No, I don't. Because parts of Luke 21 are 70AD. And other parts of Luke 21 are end times. My doctrine did not establish the the verses. The verses established the doctrine.

Some doctrines, though, only go by part of the verses. Or twis the verses. Or purposely misunderstand the verses.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Do you view 70ad Jerusalem in Revelation or not?
Then we can talk about that "final judgement"....
seems clear that Babylon = Jerusalem, fall of Babylon at Armageddon = fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD

Rev speaks of ensuing events (defeat of the Beast, Millennium, Gog & Magog, Final Judgement) afterwards

Rev 19 does resemble Ez 39 with reference to birds eating carrion. However, Rev 19 occurs before the Millennium...

and Rev 20 clear positions Gog & Magog after the Millennium.

"Fire from the sky" (Rev 20:10) = Ezekiel 39:6

yes?


I understand you can make a case for Rev 19 = Ez 39...

However, mustn't we choose the obvious over the ambiguous? Rev 19 resembles Ez 39... but Rev 20 clearly references Ez 38-39...

so we have to equate post-Millennial Rev 20 = Ezek 38-39

Gog & Magog is the final post-Millennial adversary...

not surprisingly sharing some characteristics with pre-Millennial adversaries

Accordingly, Ez references to "Israel" must mean, from a purely Christian perspective, "true spiritual Israel" = Church, not physical Israel
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Where are you reading 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation?
From the scriptures...........

Luke 19, Luke 21 and Revelation 18 same event?
Luk 19, Luk 21 and Reve 18 same event?

Luke 21 mentions the "Temple of the City and stone upon stone" in this passage [as does Matt and Mark]

Luke 21:
5 And certain saying about the Temple, that with goodly stones and devoted things It hath been adorned, He said,
6 ‘These things that ye behold —
days will come, in which there shall not be left a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.’
20 ‘And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that come nigh did her desolation;
21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

In Luke 19, the author goes into greater detail concerning Luke 21:20 and the 70 ad destruction of Jerusalem [as described by Josephus]:

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments/eklausen <2799> (5656) on Her, 42 saying,
"That if Thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee,
and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.
44 And they shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee, instead which not thou knew the time of thy visitation/episkophV <1984>".

In Revelation, the same greek word #2799 is also used concerning the great City in Revelation:

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust on their heads, and cried<2896>, weeping<2799> and wailing<3996>, saying, "Alas, alas, that great City!
wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of Her preciousness!
for in one hour is She made desolate.


.
 
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A71

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Mystery Babylon is understood in the context of a
World power with a false religion.
Nebuchadnezzar converted to 'Jehovahism', and Cyrus was anointed by God, so we have to wait til Greece and Alexander for a false religious world power.

Alexander fused Hellenism and Judaism, and there, hey presto, you have Mystery Babylon. Hellenistic Judaism. The union of a false belief system in a world power - a wonky theocracy. But it is not really until we get to the Roman Empire as a duality, iron and clay, that Mystery Babylon is manifested.
 
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Douggg

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From the scriptures...........

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/luke-19-luke-21-and-revelation-18-same-event.8076261/
Luk 19, Luk 21 and Reve 18 same event?


Luke 21 mentions the "Temple of the City and stone upon stone" in this passage [as does Matt and Mark]

Luke 21:
5 And certain saying about the Temple, that with goodly stones and devoted things It hath been adorned, He said,
6 ‘These things that ye behold —
days will come, in which there shall not be left a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.’
20 ‘And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that come nigh did her desolation;

21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

In Luke 19, the author goes into greater detail concerning Luke 21:20 and the 70 ad destruction of Jerusalem [as described by Josephus]:

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments/eklausen <2799> (5656) on Her, 42 saying,
"That if Thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee,
and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.
44 And they shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in thee,

and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee, instead which not thou knew the time of thy visitation/episkophV <1984>".

In Revelation, the same greek word #2799 is also used concerning the great City in Revelation:

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust on their heads, and cried<2896>, weeping<2799> and wailing<3996>, saying, "Alas, alas, that great City!

wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of Her preciousness!
for in one hour is She made desolate.
If you make Jerusalem, babylon the great of Revelation 18, and destroyed in 70 AD, then how are these verses regarding Babylon the Great in Revelation 16- fulfilled? The verses don't fit Jerusalem, nor 70 AD.


Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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If you make Jerusalem, babylon the great of Revelation 18, and destroyed in 70 AD, then how are these verses regarding Babylon the Great in Revelation 16- fulfilled? The verses don't fit Jerusalem, nor 70 AD..
I would be willing to bet the non-Christian Orthodox Jews would view that as 70ad Jerusalem.....IF they would read it....
 
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claninja

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if you go back and read my edited post in my first response.

Im sorry I didn’t go back and re read a response you edited that was a page back.

What you did was ask a loaded, presumptuous question, based on a purposed misunderstanding of "all that is written".... that presumes all of the prophecies of the bible have been fulfilled.

I asked a loaded question? That’s subjective. I could say you are the one misunderstanding. So let’s stick to objective statements. Jesus literally states ‘to fulfill ALL that is written.’ I’m trying to understand what you are saying. Are you saying Jesus didn’t really mean all that is written is fulfilled or do you believe this statement is about the end times tribulation of Jerusalem and a future temple destruction?


Luke 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written

Does this take place in 70ad or is a future end time event?

that presumes all of the prophecies of the bible have been fulfilled.

And futurists presume some prophecy is not fulfilled......
 
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claninja

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If you make Jerusalem, babylon the great of Revelation 18, and destroyed in 70 AD, then how are these verses regarding Babylon the Great in Revelation 16- fulfilled? The verses don't fit Jerusalem, nor 70 AD.


Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
1. According to Jesus, Jerusalem is punished for all righteous blood shed.

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve!”
Revelation 16:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:6&version=ESV

35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Matthew 23:35-36 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 23:35-36&version=ESV

2. The great city is Jerusalem

The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.
Revelation 16:19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:19&version=ESV

and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
Revelation 11:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 11:8&version=ESV
 
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Douggg

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I’m trying to understand what you are saying. Are you saying Jesus didn’t really mean all that is written is fulfilled or do you believe this statement is about the end times tribulation of Jerusalem and a future temple destruction?
I am saying that Jesus really meant what he said in Luke 21. But you are misunderstanding what he meant - on purpose - because you won't turn loose of your preterist view.

The parts of Luke 21, pertaining to the destruction of the temple and city, were fuffilled in 70 AD. There is no futher destuction of the temple and city in the end times. Nothing in Luke 21, is about an end times destruction of the city and temple.

Are you reading the preceding verses, 21:5 -6, the subject matter is the destruction of the temple

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


and verse 20 ?

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written [concerning the destruction of the city and temple, which is written Daniel 9:26] may be fulfilled.

Here Jesus transitions to end times for the rest of Luke in this verse....

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Verses 25 to 38, does not apply to 70 AD, but to the end times, our generation.



__________________________________________________________________________
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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When Jesus said "to fulfill all things that are written" he just means to fulfill the Law. (Exodus 24:4, Deuteronomy 31:9).
Obviously Jesus fulfilled the law, except for those who rejected him. To deal with them was the complete fulfillment of the Law.
That is true. But He couldn't really fulfill all things until the whole OC priesthood and Temple services were swept away in the day of wrath/vengeance.
Notice Isaiah 61 and Luke 4:

Isaiah 61
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on Me, because the LORD has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives
and release from darkness to the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor
and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,

Luke quotes from Isaiah 61.
But the phrase "day of vengeance of our God" is left out.

Luke 4:
18 The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

21 And he began to say to them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Luke then quotes again from Isaiah 61:2 in this verse, using the phrase "days of vengeance" and is the only Gospel that uses the word "vengeance"

Luke 21:22
“For these are the days of vengeance<1557>, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

1557. ekdikesis ek-dik'-ay-sis from 1556; vindication, retribution:--(a-, re-)venge(-ance), punishment.

The other form of #1557 is used only in the Gospel of Luke, Epistles and Revelation

1556. ekdikeo ek-dik-eh'-o from 1558; to vindicate, retaliate, punish:--a (re-)venge.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long! O Master, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge<1556> our blood on them that dwell on the earth"?

Revelation 19:2
For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged<1556> the blood of his servants at her hand.

.
 
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BABerean2

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Dan 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.


Luk 21:23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Here is another similarity I just found between Daniel 12 and Luke 21

4422 malat maw-lat' a primitive root; properly, to be smooth, i.e. (by implication) to escape (as if by slipperiness); causatively, to release or rescue

Daniel 12:1
"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.
And at that time your people escape<4422>, Every one who is found written in the book.

Luke uses the equivalent greek word in Luke 21:36

Luke 21:36
watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape<1628> all these things that are about to come to pass,
and to stand before the Son of Man.'

1628. ekpheugo ek-fyoo'-go from 1537 and 5343; to flee out:--escape, flee.


.
 
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claninja

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When Jesus said "to fulfill all things that are written" he just means to fulfill the Law. (Exodus 24:4, Deuteronomy 31:9). Obviously Jesus fulfilled the law, except for those who rejected him. To deal with them was the complete fulfillment of the Law.
I would argue and the prophets as well.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It just means while the gentiles are occupying Jerusalem while Israel has been scattered among the nations.
After the demolition of Jerusalem, what was left there to occupy?
The way Josephus describes it, it was almost like an atom bomb hit it..........

Matthew 24:15
“So when you see the abomination of desolation/erhmwsewV<2050> spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Mark 13:14
“But when you see the abomination of desolation/erhmwsewV<2050> standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains
Luke 21:20
"whenever yet ye may be seeing being surrounded by troops, the Jerusalem, then be knowing! that has-neared the desolating/erhmwsiV <2050> of Her"

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried-out, weeping and mourning, saying "Woe! Woe! the great city, wherein all were made rich, that had ships at sea, by reason of her prices.
That to one hour She was desolated/hrhmwqh <2049>.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition/desolating of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely leveled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.

Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and leveled with the ground.
And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished!



.
 
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Douggg

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After the demolition of Jerusalem, what was left there to occupy?
Haven't the Arabs and muslims been claiming they occupied the land? What's the big conflict going over there right now, about?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Haven't the Arabs and muslims been claiming they occupied the land? What's the big conflict going over there right now, about?
God said He would bring them back into the land after their captivity/exile in 70ad , nothing about there not being non-Israelites also living in it....

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity, into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.

Ezekiel 37:21
“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone,
and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND

Titus now gave orders that those Jews only who resisted should be slain ; but the soldiers, equally void of pity and remorse, slew even the sick and the aged. The robbers and seditious were all punished with death : the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.

After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves, or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ; whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.


.

 
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