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Creationists: Explain your understanding of microevolution and macroevolution

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Guy Threepwood

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In the case of things like Stonehenge or the pyramids, we have known actors (e.g. human populations)"

As above, ancient aliens are often not believed to be humans, some believe that the Egyptian Gods depicted as half human-half animal were true depictions of alien beings..

I don't believe this, but the point remains; the source of the intelligence does not alter the conclusion of intelligence- however 'far out' the explanation- nobody concludes natural forces spontaneously formed the pyramids for no particular reason.

Same applies to explorers coming across neatly arranged petals in Papua New Guinee where no people lived and birds of paradise were as yet unknown- the existence of intelligence is recognized in the design patterns- even though the source and meaning is unknown.


Compare and contrast this to what ID insofar as claims about biology, which is... basically nothing.

For biology, we could use your argument if you prefer.

We do have pre-existing knowledge that humans can build hierarchical digital information systems, we do have knowledge of how humans design these systems, and plenty of demonstrable examples of this process at work.

We have yet to find any demonstrable examples of something like the pyramids, Stonehenge, or digital information systems being produced through 'natural unguided forces'.

but the point above goes beyond this- there are known limitations on nature, and specific fingerprints of intelligence in design, that transcend any particular precedent.
 
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pitabread

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I don't believe this, but the point remains; the source of the intelligence does not alter the conclusion of intelligence- however 'far out' the explanation- nobody concludes natural forces spontaneously formed the pyramids for no particular reason.

Nobody seriously takes claims of aliens building things like the pyramids though. Especially when human populations and mechanisms by which humans construct structures are known.

So I'm not sure where you're going with any of this.

We do have pre-existing knowledge that humans can build hierarchical digital information systems, we do have knowledge of how humans design these systems, and plenty of demonstrable examples of this process at work.

We've been through this before. Ultimately your arguments rely on equivocation. Unless you're changing your argument, I don't see a point in rehashing any of this. It's going to end up going down the same path.

And unless you're trying to argue that humans created life on Earth, what else is there to discuss?

Let me know when the ID movement brings something new to the table.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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Nobody seriously takes claims of aliens building things like the pyramids though. Especially when human populations and mechanisms by which humans construct structures are known.

So I'm not sure where you're going with any of this.

Sure they do, there are lots of ancient alien theorists- I don't take them too seriously- but clearly non-human sources does not alter the evidence for intelligent design itself

We've been through this before. Ultimately your argumentations relies on equivocation.
not at all- forensic scientists and archeologists do not use equivocation to determine intelligent design, any more than scientists who conclude intelligence in biology do, they use known objective fingerprints


Unless you're trying to argue that humans created life on Earth, there isn't anything else to discuss here.

Wake me when the ID movement brings something new to the table.

That's one possibility of course, as suggested by notable cosmologists like Andre Linde and Brian Greene, Hoyle also saw intelligence in life while being a clear skeptic of the Big Bang for it's religious connotations. ^ none of them identify with the ID movement - in fact I believe they all identified as atheists at various times

I believe the ID movement explicitly refrains from identifying any particular source of the intelligence, it strictly offers only the evidence for intelligence.

I'm not strictly an 'ID' guy either though, so I can't speak for them
 
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pitabread

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not at all- forensic scientists and archeologists do not use equivocation to determine intelligent design, any more than scientists who conclude intelligence in biology do, they use known objective fingerprints

Said "fingerprints" are based on pre-existing knowledge of the actors in questions and mechanisms by which they implement design.

This is one of the limitations of continuously pointing to human-designed objects; we know humans exist, we know that humans make stuff, and we have ways of distinguishing human designed objects from naturally occurring formations.

I believe the ID movement explicitly refrains from identifying any particular source of the intelligence, it strictly offers only the evidence for intelligence.

I'm not strictly an 'ID' guy either though, so I can't speak for them

The purported secular nature of ID is mainly just a PR front. The ID movement has tried to distance itself from creationism to avoid the legal baggage (primarily in the U.S. re: the Constitution) that creationism was saddled with. But in some cases, it turned out what was being promoted as ID was literally just re-badged creationism (see Dover trial exhibits).

Similarly, the Discovery Institutes underlying mission wasn't strictly about ID; rather it was able pushing a culture war to inject conservative Christianity further into Western society. Again, see the Dover trial for evidence of this.

There might be some people that sincerely believe in the search for ID insofar as biology goes. But by this point the ID movement has saddled itself with a lot of the same baggage as creationism.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Sure they do, there are lots of ancient alien theorists- I don't take them too seriously- but clearly non-human sources does not alter the evidence for intelligent design itself


not at all- forensic scientists and archeologists do not use equivocation to determine intelligent design, any more than scientists who conclude intelligence in biology do, they use known objective fingerprints




That's one possibility of course, as suggested by notable cosmologists like Andre Linde and Brian Greene, Hoyle also saw intelligence in life while being a clear skeptic of the Big Bang for it's religious connotations. ^ none of them identify with the ID movement

I believe the ID movement explicitly refrains from identifying any particular source of the intelligence, it strictly offers only the evidence for intelligence.

I'm not strictly an 'ID' guy either though, so I can't speak for them
There are some basic rules in the sciences for what is considered evidence. You probably are guilty of what you are being accused of because I am unaware of any scientific evidence for ID at all.

In the sciences one must put ones money where one's mouth is, so to speak. To even have evidence the first thing one has to have is a testable scientific hypothesis. If you do not have a testable scientific hypothesis then by definition you do not have scientific evidence.

Here is the question that almost every creationist dodges, and tacitly admits that they have no evidence by dodging:

What test, based upon the merits of your hypothesis, could possibly refute it? If you cannot think of a way to properly test your ideas then you only have an ad hoc explanation, not a scientific hypothesis and you do not have any scientific evidence.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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Said "fingerprints" are based on pre-existing knowledge of the actors in questions and mechanisms by which they implement design.

This is one of the limitations of continuously pointing to human-designed objects; we know humans exist, we know that humans make stuff, and we have ways of distinguishing human designed objects from naturally occurring formations.

familiarity of human objects is your argument- not mine

birds of paradise - not human

the 'suggested' originators of the 'WOW' signal- presumably not human

ancient aliens, generally not human

all different kinds of potential sources of non human intelligence - all bearing the same fingerprints of intelligence regardless.



The purported secular nature of ID is mainly just a PR front. The ID movement has tried to distance itself from creationism to avoid the legal baggage (primarily in the U.S. re: the Constitution) that creationism was saddled with. But in some cases, it turned out what was being promoted as ID was literally just re-badged creationism (see Dover trial exhibits).

Similarly, the Discovery Institutes underlying mission wasn't strictly about ID; rather it was able pushing a culture war to inject conservative Christianity further into Western society. Again, see the Dover trial for evidence of this.

There might be some people that sincerely believe in the search for ID insofar as biology goes. But by this point the ID movement has saddled itself with a lot of the same baggage as creationism.

'baggage' being subjective bias pinned on a theory for it's unfashionable implications.

Once again the Big Bang was rejected for decades because of it's 'religious baggage'

So yes, that's why ID actively distances itself from religion, so people can view it objectively without that baggage. Just as Lemaitre went out of his way to dissociate the primeval atom with religion- even telling the Pope to quit gloating!
 
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Guy Threepwood

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If you do not have a testable scientific hypothesis then by definition you do not have scientific evidence.

Well there goes abiogenesis and macroevolution for starters!

Here is the question that almost every creationist dodges, and tacitly admits that they have no evidence by dodging:

What test, based upon the merits of your hypothesis, could possibly refute it? If you cannot think of a way to properly test your ideas then you only have an ad hoc explanation, not a scientific hypothesis and you do not have any scientific evidence.

I can't speak for creationists, but as a programmer my assertion is that hierarchical digital information systems are only known to be produced through creative intelligence. So just show me how natural forces could possibly do the same, and that would be a pretty good start for the theory of naturalistic abiogenesis of DNA

We are both using a testable, repeatable example of an intelligently designed digital information system right now- we have no such testable hypothesis for 'natural forces; achieving the same

But beyond this mere 'precedent' there are entirely objective identifiable mathematical limitations on natural forces which I would say provides the more conclusive evidence than mere precedent. Math is the most objective measure we have for anything
 
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Subduction Zone

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Well there goes abiogenesis and macroevolution for starters!

What makes you think that? Evolution has been tested countless times and has always passed. Whether small hypotheses ore even the theory over all. Abiogenesis on the other hand is not a theory, yet. It is a string of hypotheses dealing with different aspects of abiogenesis. And all of these were testable too. So to the contrary both evolution and the hypotheses of abiogenesis are well supported by scientific evidence.
I can't speak for creationists, but as a programmer my assertion is that hierarchical digital information systems are only known to be produced through creative intelligence. So just show me how natural forces could possibly do the same, and that would be a pretty good start for the theory of naturalistic abiogenesis of DNA

But DNA is not "hierarchial digital information". It is more on the order of a recipe. And it is understood, demonstrably so, how new "information" arises. You fail here too.

We are both using a testable, repeatable example of an intelligently designed digital information system right now- we have no such testable hypothesis for 'natural forces; achieving the same

But beyond this mere 'precedent' there are entirely objective identifiable mathematical limitations on natural forces which I would say provides the more conclusive evidence than mere precedent. Math is the most objective measure we have for anything

No, you are not using a testable hypothesis. At least not that I have ever seen. You need to name the hypothesis. Right now it sounds like your "hypothesis" could not even get off the ground since it is likely based upon false premises.

The challenge: Lay out your hypothesis clearly.

Tell us what possible test could refute it.
 
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Subduction Zone

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familiarity of human objects is your argument- not mine

birds of paradise - not human

the 'suggested' originators of the 'WOW' signal- presumably not human

ancient aliens, generally not human

all different kinds of potential sources of non human intelligence - all bearing the same fingerprints of intelligence regardless.





'baggage' being subjective bias pinned on a theory for it's unfashionable implications.

Once again the Big Bang was rejected for decades because of it's 'religious baggage'

So yes, that's why ID actively distances itself from religion, so people can view it objectively without that baggage. Just as Lemaitre went out of his way to dissociate the primeval atom with religion- even telling the Pope to quit gloating!
The only strong opposition to the Big Bang theory was by the person that gave it that name. You are aware who came up with that, aren't you? Oddly enough he also opposed abiogenesis. Fred Hoyle was a very confused scientist at times. And he has a terrible record when it comes to denying new ideas.
 
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pitabread

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familiarity of human objects is your argument- not mine

birds of paradise - not human

the 'suggested' originators of the 'WOW' signal- presumably not human

ancient aliens, generally not human

all different kinds of potential sources of non human intelligence - all bearing the same fingerprints of intelligence regardless.

I have no idea what your point is here.

We've also specifically gone over the SETI related stuff and that doesn't generally support your views of how ID is detected. In the case of SETI, detection methods are based on proposed mechanisms derived from understanding of human technology and signal generation.

So yes, that's why ID actively distances itself from religion, so people can view it objectively without that baggage.

Like I said, the primary issue in the U.S. is U.S. Constitutional law. In cases where ID has tried to be pushed in schools, they *have* to distance themselves from religion.

It's not about objectivity; it's a legal necessity.
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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Subduction Zone

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I have no idea what your point is here.

We've also specifically gone over the SETI related stuff and that doesn't generally support your views of how ID is detected. In the case of SETI, it's based on proposed mechanisms based on human technological understanding.



Like I said, the primary issue in the U.S. is U.S. Constitutional law. In cases where ID has tried to be pushed in schools, they *have* to distance themselves from religion.

It's not about objectivity; it's a legal necessity.
It seems to be one of his favorite arguments. It is quite the red herring and his reasoning seems to be "Scientists were wrong about aliens therefore they are wrong about evolution". The problem is that SETI was always a bit overly ambitious. The amount of our galaxy that we can get meaningful information from is very small and not finding any other nearby intelligence says nothing about finding life on other planets. People have watched too much science fiction and think that alien life means the same thing as intelligent aliens. Take our planet for example. Even after life appeared for over half of our planets history there was only unicellular life. I don't think bacteria would make their presence known to other intelligences light years away.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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What makes you think that? Evolution has been tested countless times and has always passed. Whether small hypotheses ore even the theory over all.

in testing the claim that a single celled bacteria like organism can become a human being through random mutation of it's genes- we have got as far as- more bacteria.

That leaves a quite a lot to fill in with the imagination and artistic impressions.

But DNA is not "hierarchial digital information". It is more on the order of a recipe. And it is understood, demonstrably so, how new "information" arises. You fail here too.

After Watson and Crick, we know that genes themselves, within their minute internal structure, are long strings of pure digital information. What is more, they are truly digital, in the full and strong sense of computers and compact disks, not in the weak sense of the nervous system. The genetic code is not a binary code as in computers, nor an eight-level code as in some telephone systems, but a quaternary code, with four symbols. The machine code of the genes is uncannily computerlike. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular-biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer-engineering journal. . . .

Richard Dawkins

No, you are not using a testable hypothesis. At least not that I have ever seen. You need to name the hypothesis. Right now it sounds like your "hypothesis" could not even get off the ground since it is likely based upon false premises.

The challenge: Lay out your hypothesis clearly.

Tell us what possible test could refute it.

Ask a forensic scientist how they establish intelligent design in a scenario v 'natural causes'
You basically compare all available natural mechanisms v the odds of intelligent agency and see which is 'least improbable'

As in all science, there is strictly speaking no proof- just a best guess.

In this case- the hypothesis would be that functional hierarchical digital information systems, in any medium, are most likely produced through the application of creative intelligence

Test to verify this: identify the number of necessary steps required, identify all known natural processes that could ever be available to complete these steps- calculate how much time would be required, even in the best possible circumstances, to complete all the necessary steps through these processes- and compare with the amount of time available.

Test to refute this: Simply provide an experiment whereby such a system is able to spontaneously self-assemble entirely without the aid of intelligent agency
 
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Guy Threepwood

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It seems to be one of his favorite arguments. It is quite the red herring and his reasoning seems to be "Scientists were wrong about aliens therefore they are wrong about evolution".

Not at all, I think scientists were (eventually) right about the Big Bang, quantum mechanics, and so they will also be right about evolutionary development being driven by very specific guiding information, not a handful of 'immutable laws' + lots of random interaction.

We don't know if the WOW signal was produced by aliens or not- just that clearly informational evidence for intelligence does not have to depend on phenomena being in any way 'human'. Again many animals create things entirely unlike human creations- but we can still identify where there is some degree of intelligence by the information content- regardless of the medium.

Because ultimately outcome specific information is a fingerprint of anticipation- which is in turn a phenomena unique to creative intelligence, as forensic scientists recognize- nothing 'supernatural' here but neither does it have to involve humans.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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The problem is that SETI was always a bit overly ambitious. The amount of our galaxy that we can get meaningful information from is very small and not finding any other nearby intelligence says nothing about finding life on other planets. People have watched too much science fiction and think that alien life means the same thing as intelligent aliens. Take our planet for example. Even after life appeared for over half of our planets history there was only unicellular life. I don't think bacteria would make their presence known to other intelligences light years away.

Getting off topic but it's an interesting point..

SETI of course stands for 'search for extraterrestrial INTELLIGENCE' not bacteria- so that part goes without saying-

But I don't think we can wave off the 'great silence' of the galaxy as entirely meaningless. The galaxy is not nearly as big as it is old- i.e. billions of years old v only 100KLY or so across.
So just one alien civilization anywhere in the galaxy could have colonized the entire galaxy many times over by now, with tech. little better than ours is- after little more than one century of powered flight- and yet (ancient alien theories not withstanding) this apparently never happened- why not?

And this is in a particularly 'grand' example of the grand design galaxies- it doesn't bode well for the vast majority of scrappy little galaxies who's numbers are often thrown in as being comparable to ours.
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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Getting off topic but it's an interesting point..

SETI of course stands for 'search for extraterrestrial INTELLIGENCE' not bacteria- so that part goes without saying-

But I don't think we can wave off the 'great silence' of the galaxy as entirely meaningless. The galaxy is not nearly as big as it is old- i.e. billions of years old v only 100KLY or so across.
So just one alien civilization anywhere in the galaxy could have colonized the entire galaxy many times over by now, with tech. little better than ours is- after little more than one century of powered flight- and yet (ancient alien theories not withstanding) this apparently never happened- why not?

And this is in a particularly 'grand' example of the grand design galaxies- it doesn't bode well for the vast majority of scrappy little galaxies who's numbers are often thrown in as being comparable to ours.
Whoosh, not real good with calculating the odds of technologies actually existing at the appropriate intersections. Or maybe you would like to tell us what technology that will make this possible? A Nobel awaits.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Getting off topic but it's an interesting point..

SETI of course stands for 'search for extraterrestrial INTELLIGENCE' not bacteria- so that part goes without saying-

But I don't think we can wave off the 'great silence' of the galaxy as entirely meaningless. The galaxy is not nearly as big as it is old- i.e. billions of years old v only 100KLY or so across.
So just one alien civilization anywhere in the galaxy could have colonized the entire galaxy many times over by now, with tech. little better than ours is- after little more than one century of powered flight- and yet (ancient alien theories not withstanding) this apparently never happened- why not?

And this is in a particularly 'grand' example of the grand design galaxies- it doesn't bode well for the vast majority of scrappy little galaxies who's numbers are often thrown in as being comparable to ours.
Wow! You did not understand the discussion.

First off interstellar travel may be impossible in practice. So saying that one alien race could have populated the galaxy is far from justified. Second the point was that we can only search a very small part of the galaxy using SETI That is why it was overly ambitious. This is improper statistics, but let's use the Earth as an average case in a planet where life arose. For only a very very small fraction of our history has there been intelligent life here. If we apply that to the galaxy as a whole intelligent life would be very rare. Perhaps nonexistent. By no means is that saying that life would not exist elsewhere. Life may be common. Intelligent life probably is not. Star Trek and Star Wars are science fiction.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Not at all, I think scientists were (eventually) right about the Big Bang, quantum mechanics, and so they will also be right about evolutionary development being driven by very specific guiding information, not a handful of 'immutable laws' + lots of random interaction.

We don't know if the WOW signal was produced by aliens or not- just that clearly informational evidence for intelligence does not have to depend on phenomena being in any way 'human'. Again many animals create things entirely unlike human creations- but we can still identify where there is some degree of intelligence by the information content- regardless of the medium.

Because ultimately outcome specific information is a fingerprint of anticipation- which is in turn a phenomena unique to creative intelligence, as forensic scientists recognize- nothing 'supernatural' here but neither does it have to involve humans.
There is no evidence of any guiding being done. Nor does there appear to be a need for any. That is why scientists tend to laugh at ID people as much as they laugh at creationists. Look at your poor argument. All you have is a claim that something exists that you cannot support with evidence and a bunch of hand waving.

But thanks for admitting that you have no evidence. I gave you a more than reasonable challenge but you could not meet it.
 
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Job 33:6

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from your link:

This newly discovered ancient animal is an evolutionary offshoot of the "Sivathere" clade of animals, which includes Sivatherium and Samotherium, a similar-looking giraffid. As a "basal offshoot," that means that the animal was closely related to the common ancestor of sivatherium and samotherium, but it evolved in another direction.

^ and this is what we generally see in 'short necked Giraffes' examples - they are similar but key evidence shows they were most likely NOT direct ancestors-

One of the best candidates for actually being a direct ancestor:

Giraffa jumae was most likely the direct ancestor of the modern giraffe. G. jumae had a wider range than modern giraffes, extending from the modern giraffe's homeland in sub-Saharan Africa through the modern Middle East as far as Asia Minor. They closely resembled modern giraffes, but grew about 1 meter taller. G. jumae lived from 13 million years ago, during the Miocene, until about one million years ago, during the Cenozoic.

^ and this is the pattern we see in the fossil record... early appearances of direct ancestors are often fully formed and in this case- larger, not smaller than the modern species. Contrary to those artistic impressions of gradual Darwinian development we are all familiar with.

That's not even from my link. My link is of an ancestral genus giraffe that was not as tall which consists of 5 different species.

S. africanum Churcher, 1970
S. boissieri Forsyth-Major, 1889 (type)
S. major Bohlin, 1926
S. neumayri Rodler and Weithofer, 1890
S. sinense Bohlin, 1926

The question is whether or not these prehistoric giraffes have more basal features than modern ones, such as having a shorter neck (in lay terms), and in fact, they do have shorter necks.

If prehistoric giraffes only had longer necks, that would be problematic for evolution and would arguably disprove it (if we based our understanding of the theory only in fossils), but because there are short-necked giraffes in the fossil record, this simply supports the theory.

If evolution were hypothetically true, short necked giraffes is exactly what we would expect to find, and so it is. No necked giraffes? No. Longer necked giraffes? No. Short necked giraffes? Yes.

Same with elephants. There are bigger elephants in the fossil record, such as whooly mammoths. But prior to mammoths, there were small elephants going back to paleomastodon. If no tiny elephants existed, the theory would be in trouble. But tiny prehistoric elephants exist just as expected.

South African National Parks - SANParks - Official Website - Accommodation, Activities, Prices, Reservations

Another example, turtles. What would an ancestor turtle look like? Well, maybe a turtle with a partial shell? We ought to expect this logically, and so it is with discovery of prehistoric turtles that only have half shells.

Odontochelys - Wikipedia

If we only ever found turtles with full shells, we might be in trouble. And yet, here we are with fossil turtles that only have half a shell.

But the theory goes much deeper than these simply lay-observations. Cladistics is much more detailed and paints a much more precise picture.
 
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Job 33:6

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That's not even from my link. My link is of an ancestral genus giraffe that was not as tall which consists of 5 different species.

S. africanum Churcher, 1970
S. boissieri Forsyth-Major, 1889 (type)
S. major Bohlin, 1926
S. neumayri Rodler and Weithofer, 1890
S. sinense Bohlin, 1926

The tallest being a modern giraffe, the middle being a prehistoric giraffe species. The smallest is the related okapi species.

Screenshot_20210729-233450~2.png
 
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