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Creationists: Explain your understanding of microevolution and macroevolution

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Hans Blaster

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The ToE is the most supported theory in all science? Finally, the clown says something funny. You notice that Hans hasn't answered your question. If he studies and understands the data from the Kishony and Lenski experiments and the math from my papers, he will see that it fits. And the math is all so trivial!

I agree -- the math is trivial.

And stop it with me and @Phred. We were discussing models in general. If anything I was defending you and the notion that you had a model. Since I didn't have the quality of your fits to the experimental data in hand I didn't worry about answering that question. (It also came, as I recall, at the head of a tsunami of replies from you that clogged up the thread.)

After reviewing the papers you suggested, I don't see any work you've done to connect that to the experimental data. At best you seem to have provided the tools to identify the values of the parameters in your model if it is applied to an experiment.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Yes understood, you once recognized something that had not been recognized before. Congratulations.
Been there done that. As a mech e with only 8th grade bio, I solved a problem that had confused many bio PhDs.

That does not make you a genius, even less it makes you an authority on unrelated situations. If you wish to repeat your success, then you need to go back and do the due diligence that brought you to the original finding. So far, your hypothesis is unevidenced by anything.

Understand what you do know, and also what you do not know.
Why don't you study the Kishony and Lenski experiments? And of course, there is nothing in the "real" world that would make adaptive evolution work more rapidly in the real world than in the laboratory. Actually, there is one thing that possibly could and it is based on the first law of thermodynamics. Show your engineering prowess and tell us what that is.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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I agree -- the math is trivial.

And stop it with me and @Phred. We were discussing models in general. If anything I was defending you and the notion that you had a model. Since I didn't have the quality of your fits to the experimental data in hand I didn't worry about answering that question. (It also came, as I recall, at the head of a tsunami of replies from you that clogged up the thread.)

After reviewing the papers you suggested, I don't see any work you've done to connect that to the experimental data. At best you seem to have provided the tools to identify the values of the parameters in your model if it is applied to an experiment.
The first paper gives the number of replications necessary for the probability of at least one occurrence of an adaptive (beneficial) mutation with mutation rate as a parameter in a single selection pressure environment (that's one adaptive step in the Kishony experiment). And the second paper simulates one fixation/adaptation cycle of the Lenski experiment. Take a look again and see how this connects with the experimental data. Kishony is the one who said it takes a billion replication for each adaptive mutation and I gave links to Lenski's papers for his data. The math is trivial and the correlation is straightforward.

And take it up with Phred, he asked you the question. In addition, I write at most one reply to every post addressed to me.
 
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Ponderous Curmudgeon

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Why don't you study the Kishony and Lenski experiments? And of course, there is nothing in the "real" world that would make adaptive evolution work more rapidly in the real world than in the laboratory. Actually, there is one thing that possibly could and it is based on the first law of thermodynamics. Show your engineering prowess and tell us what that is.
Thanks to you, I have read a lot on this point, and all I am left with, is that you don't like the conclusion, if you have any more than this please enlighten us. Thus far, you have failed on any level with biology, but you also claim to have evidence in the terms of physics, specifically thermodynamics. Maybe you can recoup your position by explaining the thermodynamics behind your position.
 
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Subduction Zone

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You don't have a model.
In reality neither do you. No model at all is superior to a failed one.

But then you keep avoiding answering this question:

What reasonable test do you have that would refute your model based upon the model's own merits?
 
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Frank Robert

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In reality neither do you. No model at all is superior to a failed one.

But then you keep avoiding answering this question:

What reasonable test do you have that would refute your model based upon the model's own merits?
Alan was offered the following challenge at Peaceful Science to test his model .

Your challenge is to identify a well specified question, answerable with a simulation, where you and the experts here disagree on the results. Several outcomes are possible from this experiment.
  1. You will not be able to find such a case, which would demonstrate you cannot substabtiate any of your disagreements are salient.
  2. Your prediction on the experimental results could be correct, and ours would be wrong. We would learn something.
  3. Your prediction is wrong, and ours is right. You would learn something.
  4. You will ignore this test of your work, missing your best opportunity in a long time to be heard.
So, let’s see how this plays out. Please produce the parameters of a well specified experiment, and a prediction we can verify with simulation. Check to be sure we are making a different prediction than you. The. Let’s put it to the test.
He was also offered additional help from the graduate students to run the simulations. Alan chose no. 4.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Thanks to you, I have read a lot on this point, and all I am left with, is that you don't like the conclusion, if you have any more than this please enlighten us. Thus far, you have failed on any level with biology, but you also claim to have evidence in the terms of physics, specifically thermodynamics. Maybe you can recoup your position by explaining the thermodynamics behind your position.
What conclusion is it that I don't like? Is it that macroevolutionists don't agree with my conclusions. And what level of biology have I failed at?

So you want me to explain the thermodynamics behind this biology (again)? OK, for an ME, why not?

Darwinian evolution consists of two thermodynamic processes, evolutionary competition (what Darwin calls the struggle for existence, the selection of the most relatively fit variant in a given environment) and evolutionary adaptation (improvement in reproductive fitness).

Evolutionary competition occurs because it takes energy to replicate and in an environment (MEs would call this the "system") with a limited carrying capacity (energy available for reproduction), the different variants compete for this limited amount of energy. The variant that is the most effective user of this limited energy in this environment may in some cases drive the less fit variants to extinction such that the only variant remaining in the environment is this most fit variant. This is what biologists call "fixation". This is a first law of thermodynamics process (conservation of energy). Biologists have done a decent job describing this process. Two of the most famous models of evolutionary competition were written by Kimura and Haldane. Kimura's model is given in this paper:

ON THE PROBABILITY OF FIXATION OF MUTANT GENES IN A POPULATION
You as an ME should recognize that Kimura's equation (1) is a stardard heat transfer equation with an energy storage term, energy diffusion term, and an energy convection term. I find this formulation too complicated and difficult to use in any real situation because of the difficulty in defining boundary conditions and constants used in the equation. A different, simpler, and more elegant way of modeling evolutionary competition was published by Haldane in his cost of natural selection paper:

THE COST OF NATURAL SELECTION
His model is simple, when selection of the most fit variant occurs, the frequency of the most fit variant increases, and the frequency of the less fit variant(s) decrease, a simple conservation principle. Note that Haldane uses different terminology. He uses the word "substitution" instead of "fixation". Haldane's model was demonstrated as a conservation of energy principle by Flake and his coauthor in this publication:

An Analysis of the Cost-of-Selection Concept

Haldane's model can be easily modified for variable population sizes which I do when modeling the Lenski experiment. But what about evolutionary adaptation, what thermodynamic principle is operating here?

Evolutionary adaptation is a second law of thermodynamic process. This can be recognized physically by considering how DNA evolution operates. One starts with a particular genome. On replication, random mutations accumulate in that genome over time. Without natural selection, that genome over time would consist of nothing but random mutations, the genome would diverge to a totally random sequence. However, natural selection tends to remove variants with detrimental mutations and increase the number with adaptive mutations. Mathematically this can be modeled as a random walk process using Markov Process mathematics which can be shown to be an entropy process. Natural selection acting with a Markov model can be shown to give the same results (number of replications for a reasonable probability of an adaptive mutation occurring) as the nested binomial probability model that I've presented (does a beneficial (adaptive) mutation occur or not).

Now, you should understand that evolutionary competition and evolutionary adaptation are distinct physical processes. Depending on the environment, evolutionary competition can be interfering with evolutionary adaptation or not. It depends on the carrying capacity of the environment.

Since I've given you an introduction to the thermodynamics of biological evolution (which as an ME, you should easily understand), why does superimposing evolutionary competition slow evolutionary adaptation? In other words, why are the adaptive mutations in the Kishony experiment accumulated much more rapidly than in the Lenski experiment?
 
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Phred

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What conclusion is it that I don't like? Is it that macroevolutionists don't agree with my conclusions. And what level of biology have I failed at?

So you want me to explain the thermodynamics behind this biology (again)? OK, for an ME, why not?

Darwinian evolution consists of two thermodynamic processes, evolutionary competition (what Darwin calls the struggle for existence, the selection of the most relatively fit variant in a given environment) and evolutionary adaptation (improvement in reproductive fitness).

Evolutionary competition occurs because it takes energy to replicate and in an environment (MEs would call this the "system") with a limited carrying capacity (energy available for reproduction), the different variants compete for this limited amount of energy. The variant that is the most effective user of this limited energy in this environment may in some cases drive the less fit variants to extinction such that the only variant remaining in the environment is this most fit variant. This is what biologists call "fixation". This is a first law of thermodynamics process (conservation of energy). Biologists have done a decent job describing this process. Two of the most famous models of evolutionary competition were written by Kimura and Haldane. Kimura's model is given in this paper:

ON THE PROBABILITY OF FIXATION OF MUTANT GENES IN A POPULATION
You as an ME should recognize that Kimura's equation (1) is a stardard heat transfer equation with an energy storage term, energy diffusion term, and an energy convection term. I find this formulation too complicated and difficult to use in any real situation because of the difficulty in defining boundary conditions and constants used in the equation. A different, simpler, and more elegant way of modeling evolutionary competition was published by Haldane in his cost of natural selection paper:

THE COST OF NATURAL SELECTION
His model is simple, when selection of the most fit variant occurs, the frequency of the most fit variant increases, and the frequency of the less fit variant(s) decrease, a simple conservation principle. Note that Haldane uses different terminology. He uses the word "substitution" instead of "fixation". Haldane's model was demonstrated as a conservation of energy principle by Flake and his coauthor in this publication:

An Analysis of the Cost-of-Selection Concept

Haldane's model can be easily modified for variable population sizes which I do when modeling the Lenski experiment. But what about evolutionary adaptation, what thermodynamic principle is operating here?

Evolutionary adaptation is a second law of thermodynamic process. This can be recognized physically by considering how DNA evolution operates. One starts with a particular genome. On replication, random mutations accumulate in that genome over time. Without natural selection, that genome over time would consist of nothing but random mutations, the genome would diverge to a totally random sequence. However, natural selection tends to remove variants with detrimental mutations and increase the number with adaptive mutations. Mathematically this can be modeled as a random walk process using Markov Process mathematics which can be shown to be an entropy process. Natural selection acting with a Markov model can be shown to give the same results (number of replications for a reasonable probability of an adaptive mutation occurring) as the nested binomial probability model that I've presented (does a beneficial (adaptive) mutation occur or not).

Now, you should understand that evolutionary competition and evolutionary adaptation are distinct physical processes. Depending on the environment, evolutionary competition can be interfering with evolutionary adaptation or not. It depends on the carrying capacity of the environment.

Since I've given you an introduction to the thermodynamics of biological evolution (which as an ME, you should easily understand), why does superimposing evolutionary competition slow evolutionary adaptation? In other words, why are the adaptive mutations in the Kishony experiment accumulated much more rapidly than in the Lenski experiment?
So how do you explain the diversity of life we see on earth? You're still avoiding that question.
 
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Phred

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I can tell you with mathematical and scientific certainty that microevolution didn't do it.

And Edward Tatum already got the Nobel prize, I just did the math.
No you didn't. Your high-school linear equation has nothing to do with what Tatum did.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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So how do you explain the diversity of life we see on earth? You're still avoiding that question.
Oh, you can get a diversity of life by the mechanism of Darwinian evolution, you can get antimicrobial-resistant bacteria and viruses, herbicide-resistant weeds, pesticide-resistant insects, and failed cancer treatments. But you can't get the massive genetic diversification required to evolve reptiles into birds and fish into mammals. There are simply not enough replications available for the process. Under the best of circumstances, it takes about 1/(mutation rate) replications for each adaptive (selective) mutation. For a mutation rate of 1e-9, that is about a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in a lineage.

Consider what would be required for the transformation of a reptile lineage into a bird lineage, feathers, respiratory system, circulatory system, flight muscles, pneumatic bones, excretory system, gastrointestinal system,... Not only the coding portion of the genome but the portion of the genome that controls the coding portion to cause the differentiation of the stem cell into the appropriate anatomical and physiological structure. Even if this all could be done with as little as 1000 adaptive mutations, that would take about a trillion replications in a single selection pressure environment which the "real world" is not. In the real world with multiple simultaneous selection pressures, the number of replications goes up exponentially from that one trillion replication starting point.

If you think there is some "macroevolutionary" mechanism that can do these kinds of genetic transformations, tell us how it works and give us some experimental examples of it. So tell us how macroevolution works? Stop avoiding this question.
 
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Phred

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Oh, you can get a diversity of life by the mechanism of Darwinian evolution, you can get antimicrobial-resistant bacteria and viruses, herbicide-resistant weeds, pesticide-resistant insects, and failed cancer treatments. But you can't get the massive genetic diversification required to evolve reptiles into birds and fish into mammals. There are simply not enough replications available for the process. Under the best of circumstances, it takes about 1/(mutation rate) replications for each adaptive (selective) mutation. For a mutation rate of 1e-9, that is about a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in a lineage.

Consider what would be required for the transformation of a reptile lineage into a bird lineage, feathers, respiratory system, circulatory system, flight muscles, pneumatic bones, excretory system, gastrointestinal system,... Not only the coding portion of the genome but the portion of the genome that controls the coding portion to cause the differentiation of the stem cell into the appropriate anatomical and physiological structure. Even if this all could be done with as little as 1000 adaptive mutations, that would take about a trillion replications in a single selection pressure environment which the "real world" is not. In the real world with multiple simultaneous selection pressures, the number of replications goes up exponentially from that one trillion replication starting point.

If you think there is some "macroevolutionary" mechanism that can do these kinds of genetic transformations, tell us how it works and give us some experimental examples of it. So tell us how macroevolution works? Stop avoiding this question.
You didn't answer the question. Again.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Oh, you can get a diversity of life by the mechanism of Darwinian evolution, you can get antimicrobial-resistant bacteria and viruses, herbicide-resistant weeds, pesticide-resistant insects, and failed cancer treatments. But you can't get the massive genetic diversification required to evolve reptiles into birds and fish into mammals. There are simply not enough replications available for the process. Under the best of circumstances, it takes about 1/(mutation rate) replications for each adaptive (selective) mutation. For a mutation rate of 1e-9, that is about a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in a lineage.

Consider what that would require for the transformation of a reptile lineage into a bird lineage, feathers, respiratory system, circulatory system, flight muscles, pneumatic bones, excretory system, gastrointestinal system,... Not only the coding portion of the genome but the portion of the genome that controls the coding portion to cause the differentiation of the stem cell into the appropriate anatomical and physiological structure. Even if this all could be done with as little as 1000 adaptive mutations, that would take about a trillion replications in a single selection pressure environment which the "real world" is not. In the real world with multiple simultaneous selection pressures, the number of replications goes up exponentially from that one trillion replication starting point.

If you think there is some "macroevolutionary" mechanism that can do these kinds of genetic transformations, tell us how it works and give us some experimental examples of it. So tell us how macroevolution works? Stop avoiding this question.
If all of the evidence says that your hypothesis is wrong, then it is probably wrong. Too bad that you do not have any evidence for your failed idea.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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He can't because he knows that he is wrong.
Like all creationists he is only looking for excuses to believe.
And you atheists don't? You believe in macroevolution but can't explain what it is or present any experimental examples of it. It seems faith is important to you atheists as well, but faith in what?
 
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Subduction Zone

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And you atheists don't? You believe in macroevolution but can't explain what it is or present any experimental examples of it. It seems faith is important to you atheists as well, but faith in what?
LOL! You still do not know how science is done or even what scientific evidence is. Nor do you even understand "experiment". This is why you have no evidence for your claims. And since I asked a question three times that you ignored that I guess merits a " Bingo". You have for a third time tacitly admitted not to have any evidence.
 
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Phred

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Why should I? You don't explain what macroevolution is.
Oh but I did. Quite a long time ago. And you hand-waved and made some snarky comment and then proceeded to say Lemski and Kishony about a million times.

You're the one who has put himself on a pedestal. YOU claim that the concepts of evolution are false. YOU claim to have figured it all out. Not me, YOU. So since you have this vast knowledge impart it. If evolution somehow is prevented from crossing this mystical species barrier explain why some species no longer exist. Explain why we have such a diversity of species. Explain where they all came from.

You can't get any diversity from simple tweaks if that species always remains the same. That means all species had to start as that species. So explain the fossil record.

Explain it.
 
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