Creationists: Explain your understanding of microevolution and macroevolution

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pitabread

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In these discussions it's quite common for creationists to claim they accept microevolution, but don't accept macroevolution. What is less clear is precisely what creationists think those two things are.

To clear the air, this thread is for the purpose of creationists explaining their respective understanding of each. If you're a creationist, what do you think microevolution and macroevolution are exactly?
 

Tree of Life

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I think that these are terms that are only used by creationists. I could be wrong on that. I understand "microevolution" to refer to changes that occur within a species over time via the same process that drives evolution in general - random genetic mutation winnowed by natural selection. I understand "macroevolution" to refer to sufficient microevolutionary changes to amount to distinct species emerging.
 
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pitabread

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I think that these are terms that are only used by creationists. I could be wrong on that.

These are definitely terms used by scientists. They show up in textbooks on evolution.

That said, creationists seem to have their own private definitions of these terms which makes it confusing when they come up.
 
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Tree of Life

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These are definitely terms used by scientists. They show up in textbooks on evolution.

That said, creationists seem to have their own private definitions of these terms which makes it confusing when they come up.

Good to know. Do I understand these terms as evolutionists do or do I have the creationist version?
 
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Speedwell

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Good to know. Do I understand these terms as evolutionists do or do I have the creationist version?
Apparently you are using the evolutionist definition. Nothing in there about two different processes at work, one which results in microevolution and the other a which is a lie of Satan. Are you sure you're a creationist? You haven't said anything mean since you got here.
 
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Tree of Life

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Apparently you are using the evolutionist definition. Nothing in there about two different processes at work, one which results in microevolution and the other a which is a lie of Satan. Are you sure you're a creationist? You haven't said anything mean since you got here.

Creationists can and should be charitable and fair in their argumentation.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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In these discussions it's quite common for creationists to claim they accept microevolution, but don't accept macroevolution. What is less clear is precisely what creationists think those two things are.

To clear the air, this thread is for the purpose of creationists explaining their respective understanding of each. If you're a creationist, what do you think microevolution and macroevolution are exactly?
Microevoloution are small changes with in a specific species whereas
macroevolution produces a whole new species.
 
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pitabread

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Good to know. Do I understand these terms as evolutionists do or do I have the creationist version?

Even the terminology among scientists isn't completely consistent. The terms don't have formal definitions and therefore can vary in usage.

That said, the generally accepted usage I've seen includes evolution above the species level (e.g. formation of new species and beyond). You're using a correct version in that sense.
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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Back when I was a creationist and listened to people like Frank Turek, the general consensus was that microevolution would allow species to 'evolve' within a narrow scope, i.e. keeping with God's 'kinds' and not evolving on a macro scale which would affect taxonomical groups/classifications of an entire species.

It all comes down to the conundrum of taking the Genesis creation stories as a literal play-by-play of the world's creation, and not some sort of poetic allegory of God shaping the earth and the early beginnings of modern humans(which it what I tend to lean towards). There's also the issue of most people feeling uncomfortable thinking that we somehow came from animals at some point, which I personally see no problem with--realistically speaking, it is our self-awareness and thinking capabilities that seem to separate us from the rest of the animal kingdom in a hierarchical sense. Spiritually, it would be a difference in the type of souls we have and the knowledge of higher things such as good and evil. Either way, it doesn't make any difference to me as even Ecclesiastes 3: 18-21 says;

"18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

I think it's fair to say that most Christians believe we are all comprised of the same flesh and functions as most other living animals(cells, blood, heart, brain, eyes, lungs, vocal chords, etc)so I don't know why it is so far fetched that God could've perhaps changed up a pre-existing blueprint and given us unique features and a soul to match his image. (Nevermind that the image part is likely not meaning physically, as God has no 'human' form apart from Jesus).

Personally, I see no problem either way. If God spoke everything into existence like Genesis described--that's awesome. If he decided to evolve everything in a complex process involving science and making everything from scratch using what we can observe with science, that's great too. I find evolution interesting, although I will say that science is ever-changing--and even the way we look at evolution and how it works may change from the Darwinian model we currently seem to follow, due to the rise in studies on eugenics and such.
 
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Tree of Life

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Even the terminology among scientists isn't completely consistent. The terms don't have formal definitions and therefore can vary in usage.

That said, the generally accepted usage I've seen includes evolution above the species level (e.g. formation of new species and beyond). You're using a correct version in that sense.

I don't see why macroevolution is necessarily inconsistent with YEC. It's possible that species could change so much that new species could emerge over time such that (for example) today's giraffes couldn't reproduce with the original giraffes God created. It's really the evolutionary history that is incompatible with YEC.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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In a nutshell, microevolution is anything that can be done to a dog through selective breeding, without cloning.

From a creationist's perspective, the animal was created in its ideal form. Changes necessarily happen over time, in the same way that your brand new car will not stay brand new.

Speaking from a biological perspective, there's a huge difference between tweaking or removing a gene, versus changing the karyotype and jumping from one species to another. There are definite species barriers. Evolutionism assumes that if small changes are possible, then large changes can happen as an accumulation of small changes. This ignores the reality of the situation. The genome behaves like a glass of water: you can slosh it around, and even lose some of it, but it remains contained, or else it ceases to exist.

The second biggest false assumption of evolutionism is that if random change is possible, then good random change is also possible, and with natural selection things can get better. There would be a significant difference between talking about things getting better by chance, which is already not the way things generally work, to talking about things becoming more meaningful by chance, which would be utterly impossible. It's the difference between liking the patina of your car after it has thoroughly rusted, versus the onboard computer having a glitch and spontaneously programming a new fuel efficiency monitor into itself. Getting "better" is subjective and potentially incremental, while getting "more meaningful" requires intent and has to be done in large irreducible steps. The genetic code has meaning. It's not like a new coat of paint, but much more like written text.

So, what can happen in microevolution?
  1. Things can always get worse.
  2. Lateral movement is possible (evolution of blue eyes from brown, or the evolution of blonde hair from brown), but even in this case the movement is not genuinely lateral. While blonde hair may be functionally similar in value to brown hair, genetic sense is being lost. Hence, the evolution is negative.
  3. Genes can be lost.
  4. Bad genes can be formed, usually from formerly good ones.
  5. Genes that have gone bad in small ways, such as through a base pair substitution, can revert spontaneously, but usually only in populations that reproduce in high numbers. New genetic information is not created in the process. It would be more like a transcriber accidentally correcting a typo through another typo, rather than a transcriber accidentally writing a new book.
  6. Genetic expression can change the degree of attributes without changing the amount of sense in the genetic code. For example, an animal may become more muscular through the increased expression of anabolic hormones, but while this makes for a stronger animal, it does not involve new information. It's a change of degree, not type. One might also argue that there are costs to the increased strength, but it can go both ways.
  7. Natural selection promotes stasis, not evolution. The animal that changes, dies:
Wild rabbit
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Wild Rabbit
Oryctolagus-Cuniculus-Adult-Rabbit-European-Wild-297965.jpg

Wild Rabbit
rabbit_cotton.jpg


Domestic dog
Terrier-Dog-Breeds.jpg


Domestic dog
dash.jpg


Domestic dog
Korean_Jindo_Dog.jpg


Hence, any real change requires the removal of natural selection. Even then, the domestic dog cannot be bread into a bird or some other species. Under the most fluid of conditions, the change appears to have very definite limits.

This is microevolution.

Macroevolution is the assumption that microevolution, taken repeatedly, results in much larger changes. Macroevolution assumes that if the transcriber can accidentally misspell a word, then he can "accidentally," without knowledge or aforethought, write an epic novel. Macroevolution assumes that if a dimple in the fender can accidentally pop back out, to the fender's former shape, then the fender can accidentally crinkle into the shape of a functional wing. It assumes that if we keep crashing our cars into things, then we'll eventually, just by pure luck, wind up with something better than the new car, and all we have to do is refuse to buy the inferior model. Macroevolution pretends that there are no genetic limits to a species, that a thing can fluidly change from one type of animal to another. Macroevolution equates "better," with more meaningful. Macroevolution assumes that a thing can have meaning without an intelligent mind to give it meaning.
 
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pitabread

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I don't see why macroevolution is necessarily inconsistent with YEC. It's possible that species could change so much that new species could emerge over time such that (for example) today's giraffes couldn't reproduce with the original giraffes God created. It's really the evolutionary history that is incompatible with YEC.

YEC requires hyper-macroevolution in order to explain the modern diversity of species having emerged from the limited biological pool from Noah's Ark.

I don't think a lot of YECs realize this. A lot of what they claim can't happen re: genetic evolution is in fact required by YECism.
 
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pitabread

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New genetic information is not created in the process.

What is genetic information in this context? Can you define genetic information?

Also, no analogies please. I'd like to see what information means in the context of biological genomes.

It's a change of degree, not type.

What is the difference?

Macroevolution pretends that there are no genetic limits to a species, that a thing can fluidly change from one type of animal to another.

What are these genetic limits? Are you referring to your above claim re: genetic information?
 
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pitabread

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The IbanezerScrooge

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Macroevolution is the assumption that microevolution, taken repeatedly, results in much larger changes.

This isn't entirely inaccurate in that most macroevolutionary changes happen on timescales that are difficult to directly observe, but are inferred. I however, sense a bumpy ride ahead.

Macroevolution assumes that if the transcriber can accidentally misspell a word, then he can "accidentally," without knowledge or aforethought, write an epic novel.

whoa...

Macroevolution assumes that if a dimple in the fender can accidentally pop back out, to the fender's former shape, then the fender can accidentally crinkle into the shape of a functional wing.

WHOA!

It assumes that if we keep crashing our cars into things, then we'll eventually, just by pure luck, wind up with something better than the new car, and all we have to do is refuse to buy the inferior model.

WHOOOOOOAAAAA!!!!

Phew, what a hyperbolic, hypothetical rollercoaster ride that was!

Macroevolution pretends that there are no genetic limits to a species, that a thing can fluidly change from one type of animal to another.

Seems we're back at the station, though our condition is not good. Technically, an animal does not change "type" as it evolves. A dog will always be a "dog" even if it were to evolve fins and gills and swim in the sea. That's how cladistics work. A dog will never become a fish. It will only ever be an aquatic canine.

What genetic limitations have been identified to stop this level of change?

Macroevolution equates "better," with more meaningful. Macroevolution assumes that a thing can have meaning without an intelligent mind to give it meaning.

None of this has anything to do with evolution, let alone macroevolution.
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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Macroevolution equates "better," with more meaningful. Macroevolution assumes that a thing can have meaning without an intelligent mind to give it meaning.

Instead of asking whether or not the presence or absence of evolutionary changes on a micro or macro scale determine whether or not something required an intelligent mind to give it meaning...why not ask who or what created such a complex function, and the materials with the ability to do either of those things, and whether or not the answer would give it 'meaning'?
 
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Speedwell

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I don't see why macroevolution is necessarily inconsistent with YEC. It's possible that species could change so much that new species could emerge over time such that (for example) today's giraffes couldn't reproduce with the original giraffes God created. It's really the evolutionary history that is incompatible with YEC.
I suppose one might say that the evolutionist hypothesizes a single common ancestor, while the creationist believes in multiple common ancestors--one for each "kind."
 
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Speedwell

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Instead of asking whether or not the presence or absence of evolutionary changes on a micro or macro scale determine whether or not something required an intelligent mind to give it meaning...why not ask who or what created such a complex function, and the materials with the ability to do either of those things, and whether or not the answer would give it 'meaning'?
And thus not have to reject any of the science on religious grounds.
 
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