Creationists: Explain your understanding of microevolution and macroevolution

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AV1611VET

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The bad publicity following the Hindenburg disaster.
Well if it was just a freak accident, why don't they fly them today?

Guns kill people by "freak accident," but you don't see guns banned.
 
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Hans Blaster

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So what made them quit flying them with hydrogen, if it was just a freak accident?

1. Lighter-than-air craft work on buoyancy. Buoyancy is given by the difference between density of the fluid and the surrounding medium. In certain units* the density of air is about 29, helium is 4, and hydrogen is 2. So the helium has a buoyancy of 25 and hydrogen 27. Switching from hydrogen to helium only reduces the weight that is lifted (for the same volume) by less than 8%. (That weight includes the zeppelin itself and cargo.)

2. It is my understanding that the fabric on the outside and its coating were significant factors (or the cause) of the fire in the Hindenburg case. A fire could have started with either lifting gas, but mixing hydrogen into the air in the presence of a flame *enhances* the fire, where as mixing helium dilutes the oxygen supply and could decrease the effectiveness of the superstructure fire. (There is no guarantee of extinguishing the fire, but it certainly would hurt.)
 
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Mr Laurier

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Well if it was just a freak accident, why don't they fly them today?
"IF".
And because the Hindenburg disaster made zeppelin travel very unpopular.
People were terrified of zeppelins after that.
And then airplanes became dominant.
And as people expected fast travel, they rejected passenger ships as being just too slow. And zeppelins are also very slow. So nobody wanted a transatlantic zeppelin run.
And now? The sheer cost of startup makes it just that much more implausible.

Guns kill people by "freak accident," but you don't see guns banned.
Ever been to Scotland?
Zeppelins were never actually banned. They were just never revived.
 
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AV1611VET

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And because the Hindenburg disaster made zeppelin travel very unpopular.
So it was popular to fly those things with hydrogen at one time, until someone got a reality check?
Mr Laurier said:
People were terrified of zeppelins after that.
But not before ... right?

Who convinced the general population that the Hindenburg was safe?
 
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Speedwell

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So it was popular to fly those things with hydrogen at one time, until someone got a reality check? But not before ... right?
It was never considered to be the best option--according to "scientists" but the Germans couldn't get Helium, because it all comes from the US and we wouldn't sell them any. The decision to not sell them any was not made by "scientists."

Who convinced the general population that the Hindenburg was safe?
The marketing department of Deutsche Zeppelin Reederei, the company which operated the Zeppelins. (No, not "scientists.")

Like it or not, there is no possible way to blame the Hindenburg disaster on "scientists."
 
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Mr Laurier

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So it was popular to fly those things with hydrogen at one time, until someone got a reality check?But not before ... right?
Wrong. And the exact opposite of right.
The Hindenburg was the first and only zeppelin to be flown with hydrogen. And the engineers were terrified. But the flight went ahead due to pressure from the politicians in Berlin.
The engineers installed every safety feature they could. It was not enough.


Who convinced the general population that the Hindenburg was safe?
Nobody.
The matter was never brought up. Passengers just assumed it would be safe. People tend to not look too deeply
 
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renniks

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In a nutshell, microevolution is anything that can be done to a dog through selective breeding, without cloning.

From a creationist's perspective, the animal was created in its ideal form. Changes necessarily happen over time, in the same way that your brand new car will not stay brand new.

Speaking from a biological perspective, there's a huge difference between tweaking or removing a gene, versus changing the karyotype and jumping from one species to another. There are definite species barriers. Evolutionism assumes that if small changes are possible, then large changes can happen as an accumulation of small changes. This ignores the reality of the situation. The genome behaves like a glass of water: you can slosh it around, and even lose some of it, but it remains contained, or else it ceases to exist.

The second biggest false assumption of evolutionism is that if random change is possible, then good random change is also possible, and with natural selection things can get better. There would be a significant difference between talking about things getting better by chance, which is already not the way things generally work, to talking about things becoming more meaningful by chance, which would be utterly impossible. It's the difference between liking the patina of your car after it has thoroughly rusted, versus the onboard computer having a glitch and spontaneously programming a new fuel efficiency monitor into itself. Getting "better" is subjective and potentially incremental, while getting "more meaningful" requires intent and has to be done in large irreducible steps. The genetic code has meaning. It's not like a new coat of paint, but much more like written text.

So, what can happen in microevolution?
  1. Things can always get worse.
  2. Lateral movement is possible (evolution of blue eyes from brown, or the evolution of blonde hair from brown), but even in this case the movement is not genuinely lateral. While blonde hair may be functionally similar in value to brown hair, genetic sense is being lost. Hence, the evolution is negative.
  3. Genes can be lost.
  4. Bad genes can be formed, usually from formerly good ones.
  5. Genes that have gone bad in small ways, such as through a base pair substitution, can revert spontaneously, but usually only in populations that reproduce in high numbers. New genetic information is not created in the process. It would be more like a transcriber accidentally correcting a typo through another typo, rather than a transcriber accidentally writing a new book.
  6. Genetic expression can change the degree of attributes without changing the amount of sense in the genetic code. For example, an animal may become more muscular through the increased expression of anabolic hormones, but while this makes for a stronger animal, it does not involve new information. It's a change of degree, not type. One might also argue that there are costs to the increased strength, but it can go both ways.
  7. Natural selection promotes stasis, not evolution. The animal that changes, dies:
Wild rabbit
0d233dc6bab267e5f26778db4ed5b3db1ef93705_hq.jpg

Wild Rabbit
Oryctolagus-Cuniculus-Adult-Rabbit-European-Wild-297965.jpg

Wild Rabbit
rabbit_cotton.jpg


Domestic dog
Terrier-Dog-Breeds.jpg


Domestic dog
dash.jpg


Domestic dog
Korean_Jindo_Dog.jpg


Hence, any real change requires the removal of natural selection. Even then, the domestic dog cannot be bread into a bird or some other species. Under the most fluid of conditions, the change appears to have very definite limits.

This is microevolution.

Macroevolution is the assumption that microevolution, taken repeatedly, results in much larger changes. Macroevolution assumes that if the transcriber can accidentally misspell a word, then he can "accidentally," without knowledge or aforethought, write an epic novel. Macroevolution assumes that if a dimple in the fender can accidentally pop back out, to the fender's former shape, then the fender can accidentally crinkle into the shape of a functional wing. It assumes that if we keep crashing our cars into things, then we'll eventually, just by pure luck, wind up with something better than the new car, and all we have to do is refuse to buy the inferior model. Macroevolution pretends that there are no genetic limits to a species, that a thing can fluidly change from one type of animal to another. Macroevolution equates "better," with more meaningful. Macroevolution assumes that a thing can have meaning without an intelligent mind to give it meaning.
Clearest explanation ever....at least on an internet forum.
 
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SelfSim

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nonaeroterraqueous said:
Getting "better" is subjective and potentially incremental, while getting "more meaningful" requires intent and has to be done in large irreducible steps. The genetic code has meaning. It's not like a new coat of paint, but much more like written text.
Clearest explanation ever....at least on an internet forum.
The only meaning in a genetic code, is in the mind of some human observer who decided there must be one.
 
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Speedwell

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Clearest explanation ever....at least on an internet forum.
The only thing that is clear is that neither of you understands evolution. Even if the theory of evolution turns out to be wrong, that explanation does not describe it.
 
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SelfSim

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nonaeroterraqueous said:
Macroevolution is the assumption that microevolution, taken repeatedly, results in much larger changes. Macroevolution assumes that if the transcriber can accidentally misspell a word, then he can "accidentally," without knowledge or aforethought, write an epic novel. Macroevolution assumes that if a dimple in the fender can accidentally pop back out, to the fender's former shape, then the fender can accidentally crinkle into the shape of a functional wing. It assumes that if we keep crashing our cars into things, then we'll eventually, just by pure luck, wind up with something better than the new car, and all we have to do is refuse to buy the inferior model. Macroevolution pretends that there are no genetic limits to a species, that a thing can fluidly change from one type of animal to another. Macroevolution equates "better," with more meaningful. Macroevolution assumes that a thing can have meaning without an intelligent mind to give it meaning.
This argument is self-defeating.

A crumpled car can just as easliy be viewed as being 'superior', as it can be viewed as being 'inferior' .. it just depends on what that car represents (or means) in the context chosen by the observer.

The only statement I (partially) agree with there, is the above underlined one (except there are no 'assumptions' to be 'proven' in the theory of evolution).
The intelligent mind giving it meaning there, is the observer's mind .. which has been completely ignored throughout the entire dissertation .. thus it is self-defeating .. by virtue of a misperception (in observation).
 
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SelfSim

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Seriously? Rotfl. No study of the past is hard science. There are always assumptions.
Only in your mind. Science is not a logical test of (human) assumed truths. It follows a completely different method and serves a completely different, but still human assigned purpose.
 
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AV1611VET

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The marketing department of Deutsche Zeppelin Reederei, the company which operated the Zeppelins. (No, not "scientists.")
Would you have gotten on it? or applauded someone close to you to do so? or maybe encouraged a family member to go?
 
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Speedwell

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Or you don't understand what you think you understand.
I know what evolutionary biologists are claiming happens and you do not. Notice that the question of whether their claims are correct is a separate question. Your arguments make no sense because they do not address the real theory of evolution.

Suppose I said to you that Christianity is a stupid religion because it claims that Jesus was an Olympic figure skater and is going to take us all to Heaven on ice skates? I could make all of the arguments I wanted about the impossibility of getting to Heaven on ice skates but none of them would cause any trouble at all to the Christian religion. You could tell me that I didn't understand the Christian religion and that I should study the Bible to learn what the Christian religion actually claimed. What should I do? I could study the Bible. Or, I could just say, "You don't understand what you think you understand." How well do you think that would work?
 
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renniks

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Only in your mind. Science is not a logical test of (human) assumed truths. It follows a completely different method and serves a completely different, but still human assigned purpose.
"Evolutionary biology, in contrast with physics and chemistry, is a historical science—the evolutionist attempts to explain events and processes that have already taken place. Laws and experiments are inappropriate techniques for the explication of such events and processes. Instead one constructs a historical narrative, consisting of a tentative reconstruction of the particular scenario that led to the events one is trying to explain.”

—Mayr, Ernst (1904–2005),
 
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Speedwell

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"Evolutionary biology, in contrast with physics and chemistry, is a historical science—the evolutionist attempts to explain events and processes that have already taken place. Laws and experiments are inappropriate techniques for the explication of such events and processes. Instead one constructs a historical narrative, consisting of a tentative reconstruction of the particular scenario that led to the events one is trying to explain.”

—Mayr, Ernst (1904–2005),
You ought to read the whole essay, not just the mined quote from Creation.com
Darwin's Influence on Modern Thought
 
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