Creatio Ex Nihilo vs. Creatio Ex Materia vs. Ordo Ab Chao

[angelmom01]

and he is correct.

stop trying to play games with my words. you can't just take one part of my statement and harp on it without the context of the rest of my qualifying remarks.

we can tell the difference between people who want to discuss who are rare. we can also tell those who just want to be troublemakers who are a dime a dozen. if you want to discuss, we will discuss. if you just want to be a troublemaker, we don't have time for you.

I'm not playing games with your words. Neither did I take them out of context; they are all right there in your posts for anyone who wishes to read them to see, so I don't appreciate your false accusations.

I used to be LDS so I am quite familiar with the the church's position on creation, so when someone asks a member of the LDS church if they believe that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing and that person replies by saying that they would not rule it out, it is not inappropriate for me to step in and point out to the person asking the question that it is not the position of the LDS church that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing.

If you see that as "trouble-making", even though you admit that I am right and even claim to agree with me, then so be it. What else is new? You are not the only LDS here who seems to think that anyone here who is not LDS, and especially those who are ex-LDS, are here only because they have an ax to grind and, as such, are only here looking to cause trouble.

Well, there is nothing I can do about your personal prejudices, as I am sure that telling you that you are wrong would do absolutely no good, as you cannot seem to see it any other way. But I can certainly suggest that you to keep your personal prejudices to yourself so that you don't end up being seen as the troublemaker here.

Please feel free to ignore my posts if you do not like what I have to say. But the fact that you do not like what I have to say isn't going to prevent me from posting in this forum. My post was not even addressed to you and was only intended to clear up the confusion that your post caused with regard to the LDS position on creation.

 

[MormonFriend]

It must be remembered that God keeps things hidden from the understanding of men. I personally see immense wisdom in this. Knowledge is power and can be used for good or for evil. It can build or it can destroy. It can save us, or it can condemn us. It is to me an absolute that God will test and try a person before revealing His secrets and mysteries, for that persons good and for those around him. The Air Force and the Marine Corps are not going to hand over a set of keys to an F-15 to any jet jockey who wants to fly. They must prove that a pilot will use that power for the purpose for which it was created.

The mystery of Godliness and the mystery of creation are very powerful truths. If we want to understand them, this is not the place or the way. Certain truths have been revealed on matter and creation, but not as a conclusive means to define. The revelations are given to ponder and to pray for the correct understanding that only can be obtained by the Spirit of God. That understanding is non-transferable. Every individual must obtain it from the Source directly, and after they have proven themselves worthy to receive it.

I will add a perspective on the subject that is not metaphysically based, but more simple by nature. The simplicity of the revealed nature of God. He is Just. If God created everyone from nothing, meaning that every individual had no spark or particle of existence before God "willed" him into existence, then everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. People are different and because of that difference they choose good, or they choose evil. God is responsible for that difference. Is it just to create and to condemn an individual to an eternal damnation for being exactly what he was created to become? Is that Just?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hmmm. At this point in history astrophysicists do not have any difficulty in grappling with the fact that the universe as we know it came from nothing (at least nothing that can be identified prior to the Big Bang). Prior to Galileo the Catholic Church had adopted the prevailing cultural view that the earth was flat with finite boundaries. When Galileo came along and overturned that view they reacted by entrenching themselves further into the flat earth theory.

The reality is that the Mormon Church has entrenched itself deeply in the prevalent world view of the nineteenth century of a constant state of the universe. Now they are deeply mired and the only possibility is to wrap the whole question up in mystery and proclaim that they really don't know, after all, but that modern astrophysics is wrong in its assertion of a point of time for the creation of the universe out of nothing.

 

[Rescued One]

If God created everyone from nothing, meaning that every individual had no spark or particle of existence before God "willed" him into existence, then everything we are is the result of what God made us to be.

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Genesis 1:31

God did not create sinful men.

"...by one man sin entered into the world..." Romans 5:12

People are different and because of that difference they choose good, or they choose evil. God is responsible for that difference.

All have sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God.

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:22-23

Is it just to create and to condemn an individual to an eternal damnation for being exactly what he was created to become? Is that Just?

Is it just to condemn sinners? Is it it just to save sinners?

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:6-8

 

[Daniel Marsh]

bump

 

[Daniel Marsh]

It is my understanding that the LDS church teaches creatio ex materia (Homepage - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints____) and even Abraham 3 seems to say that the universe was created ex materia.

Is this your understanding as well? And if it is, do you think Genesis 1 describes creatio ex materia (creation out of matter) or creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing)?

By the way, so I don't bait anyone, I am going to reject both of those interpretations of Genesis 1 and opt for an Ordo Ab Chao, "order out of chaos" (and I'm going to label it that so I can have a Latin phrase too).

Hebrew is my first language. The word Create Bara in Gen 1:1a means to create from nothing. After that the Hebew words used are made, which is using the mater God created is used to make everything else.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I'm surprised that 4godslove would say "I wouldn't rule it out" when Joseph Smith already has:

D&C 93: 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;​

​

According to LDS (at least historical LDS) theology; God did not "create" in the sense that mainstream Christianity understands creation; rather, he "organized" the matter that already existed.

I did a quick Google search to see if this has changed since I was a member and found this from a Primary lesson plan at LDS.org (#3 under Enrichment Activities):

Explain that the word create means to organize, not to make something from nothing. Discuss this statement from Joseph Smith when he was speaking of the creation of the earth: Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship (History of the Church, 6:308).​

​

​

Also found this which is pretty interesting. I hope to go back and read the whole thing. It seems to touch on this as well as "intelligences" and a few other topics being discussed here. And it doesn't appear to be an "anti" source, but I can't say that for sure - have to go back and read the book (and check out the website, as I am not familiar with it; just found it when searching).

learned something, thanks daniel

 

[DamianWarS]

It is my understanding that the LDS church teaches creatio ex materia (Homepage - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints____) and even Abraham 3 seems to say that the universe was created ex materia.

Is this your understanding as well? And if it is, do you think Genesis 1 describes creatio ex materia (creation out of matter) or creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing)?

By the way, so I don't bait anyone, I am going to reject both of those interpretations of Genesis 1 and opt for an Ordo Ab Chao, "order out of chaos" (and I'm going to label it that so I can have a Latin phrase too).

Adam is created by being formed out of the dirt so we already have an ex materia insight as to what happened on day 6. The word "create" itself in Hebrew has more of a concrete meaning of forming something from preexisting material which leans on an ex materia stance again. Day 4-6 is where the creative action takes place where day 1-3 are more about organizing chaos so it depends on the perspective if you call "chaos" compatible with ex materia or not. I also think "Ordo Ab Chao" is better put as "Ordo Ex Chao" or "ex chao" for short.

Ex nilo although very comfortable to a greek mindset or in modern critical thinking to an ancient Hebraic mindset the idea creating out of nothing is perhaps too abstract of a concept. When you build something you start with the building material which is simply enough to understand but how can you build with no material? Gen 1:2 says "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Here we have 3 broad materials in a chaotic state, formless earth, darkness over the surface of the deep and these primordial waters that correlate to days 1-3 where light is spoken into the darkness, where the waters are separated and organized into sky and oceans and where the earth takes shape, these first 3 days is where chaos is organized so that days 4-6 has the necessary framework to build into. The pre-existing building materials are laid out in verse 2 but in these chaotic states that need to be organized first. Days 4-6 are the adding into these now organized materials of days 1-3. From organized light/darkness the celestial bodies are created (sun, moon, stars, etc...) on day 4, from the organized waters birds and sea animals are created on day 5 and from the organized earth, land animals are created on day 6.

The creation account of Gen 1 is laid out in a chiastic structure and the clearest is 1:1 mirroring 2:1 (IMO) "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...." is paralleled wit "thus the heavens and the earth were created...." so functionally 1:1 and 2:1 seem more of a bookends to account. 1:2 is paired with the chaotic state of 1:1 and 2:2,3 is paired with 2:1 showing completed states which directly contrast 1:2 in chiastic pattern from chaos to rest. Each verse in the account in fact has a direct parallel in a chiastic pattern so understanding this pattern allows us to interpret the text based on how the pattern is laid out. 2:1 is a natural conclusion statement and since we know it parallels with 1:1 in a chiastic pattern then 1:1 also takes on the similar theme turning 1:1 into introduction of the entire account over a direct creation action. With this in mind 1:1 is not about creating this chaos of 1:2 it is about an introduction of the entire account using preexisting choas as it's building materials. For westerns and modern thinkers, we want to keep asking questions of where the chaos came from but this is not important for an ancient mind and it is more important that preexistent material was present so that it could be organized.

the creation account of Gen 1 is more of a literary device to support a theological purpose which becomes more evidence as you break down the chiastic patterns and dive deeper into theological revelation (like light being spoken into darkness). That theological purpose I believe is to de-paganize the ancient Hebrews and give them an ordained account of creation, creating a monotheistic identity that can glorify God and it is less about the exact how it happened which would probably be beyond an ancient mind. This account is more of a framework of faith than it is of fact, it puts God as the source which is important factual information but the "how" details are not what the account is goal-driven for. The deeper goal shows us a salvation metaphor by light being spoken into the darkness that starts a process ending in rest and the more prevailing themes in the entire bible. This foreshadows Christ, salvation, the resurrection, the new heaven and earth, etc... So primordial waters, ex nihilo, ex materia, ex etc... is all sort of arbitrary when the account only adopts those references but ultimately is goal-driven to a greater point that has nothing to do with ex nihilo/meteria/chao positions. I guess the text supports an ex chao position in a literal vacuum.... but that's not the goal of the account so we miss the point when that's our takeaway.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Hebrew is my first language. The word Create Bara in Gen 1:1a means to create from nothing. After that the Hebew words used are made, which is using the mater God created is used to make everything else.

Wow, digging up posts from 2009? The internet is indeed forever.

In any case, בָּרָא does not mean "create from nothing." Here is the BDB entry:

 

[Jamdoc]

God did all 3 modes of creation. This isn't an either or.
God created light and matter out of nothing, He created chaos first. The Earth was formless and void.. chaos in other words, then God began creating things out of the matter He'd created, organizing it, so both ex Materia and Order out of Chaos simultaneously. He created living organisms in the world from previously existing material.

In Genesis 1 and 2 God shows He is capable of creating things multiple different ways, speaking something into existence out of nothing, taking existing non living material and making it alive, and cloning life from other life. Eve was made from Adam's rib, the rib bone being one of the best sources of stem cells in an adult human, where hematopoiesis (formation of new blood cells) takes place in the marrow of flat bones, God picked the most logical place to find stem bells to clone Eve from (as taking Adam's pelvis or sternum or shoulder blade would not make sense) This fact is one of the things that convinces me the bible is true, because an Ancient human would have no way of knowing about Hematopoiesis, stem bells, or surgery, and yet it's in the bible, it's a scientific process that makes sense to someone with a background in biology.
Frankly if God had just spoken things into existence, or made clay sculptures and used magic to make them alive as our creation origin.. I might write it off as faerie tales.
But because something I can understand was done, in a way that ancient people could not understand it, and yet they wrote about it... I believe it. It's like how did Solomon know that worker ants are female, and write about it in Proverbs thousands of years before it could be observed in microscopes? Consider her ways.

So for at least me, it is important that God created in a variety of ways, including one that grabbed my attention.
Because lots of mythology has magic beings creating sculptures of men and making them alive.
Lots of mythology has gods creating with snapping their fingers or some other magic.

But only Genesis shows God doing something that makes biological sense to someone modern, but totally nonsensical to an ancient person.