Creation Ex Nihilo: A doctrine created out of nothing?

[Daniel Marsh]

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"In the beginning," states the opening and perhaps the most famous verse of the Torah, "G‑d created the heavens and the earth."

Rabbi Saadia Gaon, the great 10th century scholar and philosopher, explains that the term "in the beginning" implies the very first moment of time. Nothing preceded this moment, since with this moment G‑d created time itself.

In other words, while time is itself a creation—a most basic principle of the Jewish faith is that every reality was created by G‑d— it is the first and most primary of creations. Indeed, "creation" (beriah, in the Hebrew), which means bringing something into being out of a prior state of non-existence, implies a "before" and an "after"; so to say that G‑d created anything is also to say that He first (or simultaneously) created time. To say, "In the beginning G‑d created...," is also to say, "G‑d created the beginning.""
https://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/2857/jewish/The-First-Creation.htm

 

[Daniel Marsh]

It is in contrast to Ex nihilo nihil fit or "nothing comes from nothing", which means that all things were formed from preexisting things; an idea by the Greek philosopher Parmenides (c.540-480 BC) about the nature of all things, and later more formally stated by Titus Lucretius Carus (c. 99 – c. 55 BC)
...
Ex nihilo nihil fit means that nothing comes from nothing.[3] In ancient creation myths the universe is formed from eternal formless matter,[4] namely the dark and still primordial ocean of chaos.[5] In Sumerian myth this cosmic ocean is personified as the goddess Nammu "who gave birth to heaven and earth" and had existed forever;[6] in the Babylonian creation epic Enuma Elish pre-existent chaos is made up of fresh-water Apsu and salt-water Tiamat, and from Tiamat the god Marduk created Heaven and Earth;[7] in Egyptian creation myths a pre-existent watery chaos personified as the god Nun and associated with darkness, gave birth to the primeval hill (or in some versions a primeval lotus flower, or in others a celestial cow);[8] and in Greek traditions the ultimate origin of the universe, depending on the source, is sometimes Okeanos (a river that circles the Earth), Night, or water.[9]
...

 

[Daniel Marsh]

forgot to give the link in last post, but it lead to here:

"
Chapter 10. The World Created by God Through the Word.
And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coeval with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begot Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called governing principle [ἁρκή], because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him. And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. First he named the beginning, and creation, then he thus introduced God; for not lightly and on slight occasion is it right to name God. For the divine wisdom foreknew that some would trifle and name a multitude of gods that do not exist. In order, therefore, that the living God might be known by His works, and that [it might be known that] by His Word God created the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, he said, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Then having spoken of their creation, he explains to us: And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved upon the water. This, sacred Scripture teaches at the outset, to show that matter, from which God made and fashioned the world, was in some manner created, being produced by God."
CHURCH FATHERS: To Autolycus, Book II (Theophilus of Antioch)

Theophilus of Antioch 166-179 AD. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Theophilus

Those who are in the line of the Apostles, with the teachings of the Apostles pass down to them.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

further down from one of the quotes our LDS friends gave it says, "Nevertheless, closer examination also shows that the Scrolls and the rabbis do consistently affirm Israel's God as the creator of all things, explicitly including matter itself. Graeco-Roman antiquity axiomatically accepted that ‘nothing comes from nothing’, which also meant the pre-existence of matter."
Creatio ex nihilo in Palestinian Judaism and Early Christianity | Scottish Journal of Theology | Cambridge Core

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Abstract
Rom 4.17d is often read as referring to creation, perhaps even creatio ex nihilo. Others argue that this doctrine was not yet conceptually available. After exploring what ‘nothing’ means in similar phrases in Paul's ancient context (2 Macc 7.28 and Philo), the first conclusion is that if Rom 4.17d refers to creation then Paul's ‘nothings’ most likely do not refer to an absolute nihil. However, after exploring Rom 4.17 in the context of Paul's argument, the final conclusion is that in Rom 4.17d Paul does present absolute ‘nothings’, though in God's speech to Abraham, not at creation. Paul's theology encompasses God's authority and causation ex nihilo.

Creatio ex Nihilo and Romans 4.17 in Context | New Testament Studies | Cambridge Core

Romans 4:17
Easy-to-Read Version
17 As the Scriptures say, “I have made you a father of many nations.” This is true before God, the one Abraham believed—the God who gives life to the dead and speaks of things that don’t yet exist as if they are real.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

the best search for information: Search

 

[natitude]

The context and meaning of Gen 1:1 use of create from nothing is clear to all my Jewish friends and Rabbi's I know.

Perhaps with a more accurate translation they would have a change of heart. The highly regarded translation of Genesis 1:1-3 by E.A. Speiser in the Anchor Bible Series is as follows:


When God set about to create heaven and earth – the world being a formless waste, with darkness over the seas…- God said, “Let there be light.” And there was light.

We see from this translation that the earth was in a state of chaos and without form when God began to create. As Speiser says: “To be sure the present interpretation precludes the view that creation accounts in Genesis say nothing about coexistent matter.” (Speiser, Genesis, 13.)

 

[natitude]

the quote of Umberto Cassuto in your link(thanks for that) is teaching God created matter in the opening words of Genesis ... "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth(dirt). ...

I've read to quote and don't see it. Which words are you referring to? Thanks.

 

[natitude]

"Gap theory is the notion that there is an indeterminate amount of time (the gap) between the first two verses of Genesis. Genesis 1:1 states: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Next comes the gap of possibly millions of years. Then, Genesis 1:2 states: "And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters" (Thompson). Such a gap allows for the lengthy geologic record to harmonize with the Bible. " The Age of the Earth - Creationism and Biblical Geneologies: Mike Janssen https://ecommons.udayton.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1121&context=eng_fac_pub Formless and Void: Gap Theory Creationism | National Center for Science Education

Old Earth Creation
A Travel Guide to the Evangelical Creation Debates: What is Old Earth Creationism?

The "Gap Theory" is plainly contradicted by the highly regarded translation of Genesis 1:1-3 by E.A. Speiser in the Anchor Bible Series is as follows:

When God set about to create heaven and earth – the world being a formless waste, with darkness over the seas…- God said, “Let there be light.” And there was light.

 

[mmksparbud]

Traditional Christianity holds to a doctrine formally declared in the Fourth Lateran Council which states: “We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, ... creator of all things invisible and visible, spiritual and corporeal; who by his almighty power at the beginning of time created from nothing (de nihilo condidit) both spiritual and corporeal creatures.” (“Constitutions,” Fourth Lateran Council, in Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, ed. Norman P. Tanner (London:Sheed & Ward, 1990), 1:230.)

The problem with this doctrine is that it cannot be found in the Bible. For one, the word "create" as used in the Bible refers to fashioning something out of existing matter. As noted scholar Stanley Jaki has said:

I begin with a caution: we must protect against the unwarranted assumption that the very use of the word “create” means “creation out of absolute nothing.” The caution which is in order about taking the [Hebrew] verb bara in the sense of creation out of nothing is no less needed in reference to the [English] word creation. Nothing is more natural, and unadvised, at the same time, than to use the word as if it has always denoted creation out of nothing. In its basic etymological origin the word creation meant the purely natural process of growing or of making something to grow. This should be obvious by a mere recall of the [Latin] verb crescere. The crescent moon [derived from crescere] is not creating but merely growing. The expression ex nihilo or de nihilo had to be fastened, from around 200 A.D. on, by Christian theologians on the verb creare to convey unmistakably a process, strict creation, which only God can perform. Only through the long-standing use of those very Latin expressions, creare ex nihilo and creatio ex nihilo, could the English words to create and creation take on the meaning which excludes pre-existing matter. Stanley L. Jaki, Genesis 1 Through the Ages (Royal Oak, Mich.: Real View Books, 1998), 5-6.


It is easy to trace a shift in the teachings of the Early Church fathers on this. Note that Justin Martyr taught that the Earth was created out of existing matter.

And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man's sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received--of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. (First Apology X [ANF: 1:165])

Not to long after we see a shift in early Christian thinking as noted by James Hubler:

Creatio ex nihilo appeared suddenly in the latter half of the second century c.e. Not only did creatio ex nihilo lack precedent, it stood in firm opposition to all the philosophical schools of the Greco-Roman world. As we have seen, the doctrine was not forced upon the Christian community by their revealed tradition, either in Biblical texts or the Early Jewish interpretation of them. As we will also see it was not a position attested in the New Testament doctrine or even sub-apostolic writings. It was a position taken by the apologists of the late second century, Tatian and Theophilus, and developed by various ecclesiastical writers thereafter, by Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Origen. Creatio ex nihilo represents an innovation in the interpretive traditions of revelation and cannot be explained merely as a continuation of tradition. (James N. Hubler, "Creatio ex Nihilo: Matter, Creation, and the Body in Classical and Christian Philosophy through Aquinas" (PhD diss., University of Pennsylvania, 1995), 102)

Peter Hayman concurs:

“Nearly all recent studies on the origin of the doctrine of creation ex nihilo have come to the conclusion that this doctrine is not native to Judaism, is nowhere attested in the Hebrew Bible, and probably arose in Christianity in the second century C. E. in the course of its fierce battle with Gnosticism.” (Peter Hayman, “Monotheism – A misused word in Jewish Studies?”)

Given the overwhelming evidence of the meaning of "creation" in the Bible, shouldn't Bible-based Christian denominations be teaching that divine creation is "ex-materia" (from previously existing matter), instead of "ex-nihilo" (from nothing)?

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
By His word, indicating not from anything existing
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

 

[natitude]

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
By His word, indicating not from anything existing

There is nothing in this verse that rules out God speaking to unformed matter and having it shaped to
His liking. No one else speaks to nothing. Why would God?

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

"framed by the word of God" assumes starting with some sort of raw material. Absolute nothing can't be framed.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Regarding this verse, James Hubler notes "The verse's 'non-existent' need not be understood in an absolute sense of non-being. μὴ ὄντα (mē onta) refers to the previous non-existence of those things which are now brought into existence. There is no direct reference to the absence or presence of a material cause." (James Noel Hubler, Creatio ex Nihilo: Matter, Creation, and the Body in Classical and Christian Philosophy Through Aquinas, Ph.D. Diss. University of Pennsylvania (Ann Arbor: UNI Dissertation Services, 1997), 108.)

I hope this helps...

 

[mmksparbud]

There is nothing in this verse that rules out God speaking to unformed matter and having it shaped to
His liking. No one else speaks to nothing. Why would God?




"framed by the word of God" assumes starting with some sort of raw material. Absolute nothing can't be framed.




Regarding this verse, James Hubler notes "The verse's 'non-existent' need not be understood in an absolute sense of non-being. μὴ ὄντα (mē onta) refers to the previous non-existence of those things which are now brought into existence. There is no direct reference to the absence or presence of a material cause." (James Noel Hubler, Creatio ex Nihilo: Matter, Creation, and the Body in Classical and Christian Philosophy Through Aquinas, Ph.D. Diss. University of Pennsylvania (Ann Arbor: UNI Dissertation Services, 1997), 108.)

I hope this helps...

What is hard to understand about this?
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Why do you guys insist on trying to make God so weak and pathetic? That is why we say we do not serve the same God. Your God can not create from nothing ours can. Your God requires preexisting matter---ours does not. I hope that helps.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Perhaps with a more accurate translation they would have a change of heart. The highly regarded translation of Genesis 1:1-3 by E.A. Speiser in the Anchor Bible Series is as follows:


When God set about to create heaven and earth – the world being a formless waste, with darkness over the seas…- God said, “Let there be light.” And there was light.

We see from this translation that the earth was in a state of chaos and without form when God began to create. As Speiser says: “To be sure the present interpretation precludes the view that creation accounts in Genesis say nothing about coexistent matter.” (Speiser, Genesis, 13.)

They all read Hebrew

Genesis 1:1-3
Easy-to-Read Version

The Beginning of the World
1 God created the sky and the earth. At first, 2 the earth was completely empty. There was nothing on the earth. Darkness covered the ocean, and God’s Spirit moved over the water.

Parashah 1: B’resheet (In the beginning) 1:1–6:8
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was unformed and void, darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light

It is in verse one where God created Time, Matter and Water. Rain is from the Heavens.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I've read to quote and don't see it. Which words are you referring to? Thanks.

Genesis 1:1-3
Easy-to-Read Version

The Beginning of the World
1 God created the sky and the earth. At first, 2 the earth was completely empty. There was nothing on the earth. Darkness covered the ocean, and God’s Spirit moved over the water.

Parashah 1: B’resheet (In the beginning) 1:1–6:8
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was unformed and void, darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light

It is in verse one where God created Time, Matter and Water. Rain is from the Heavens.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

James Hubler:

Creatio ex nihilo appeared suddenly in the latter half of the second century c.e. Not only did creatio ex nihilo lack precedent, it stood in firm opposition to all the philosophical schools of the Greco-Roman world. As we have seen, the doctrine was not forced upon the Christian community by their revealed tradition, either in Biblical texts or the Early Jewish interpretation of them. As we will also see it was not a position attested in the New Testament doctrine or even sub-apostolic writings. It was a position taken by the apologists of the late second century, Tatian and Theophilus, and developed by various ecclesiastical writers thereafter, by Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Origen. Creatio ex nihilo represents an innovation in the interpretive traditions of revelation and cannot be explained merely as a continuation of tradition. (James N. Hubler, "Creatio ex Nihilo: Matter, Creation, and the Body in Classical and Christian Philosophy through Aquinas" (PhD diss., University of Pennsylvania, 1995), 102)
Creatio Ex Nihilo
Creatio ex Nihilo: Matter, Creation, and the Body in Classical and Christian Philosophy Through Aquinas

"During my recent study time, I have been working my way through the book, The Early Christians in Their Own Words, by Eberhard Arnold. I was struck by the fact that almost every early church writer was a proponent of creation ex nihilo. I am including here a few of the excerpts from this book to emphasize the prominence that the early Christians place on God’s sovereignty and omnipotence. It is the Christians, O emperor, who have sought and found the truth. We have realized it from their writings; they are closer to the truth and to a right understanding than all the other peoples, for they acknowledge God. They believe in him, the creator and builder of the universe, in whom all things are and from whom everything comes. Aristides, Apology 15,16; ca. A.D. 137. When we are together, we remind one another of these things, and help all who suffer want the best we can, and keep together in harmony. We praise the creator of the universe through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Spirit for everything we receive.—Justin, First Apology, 67 It is the Christians, O emperor, who have sought and found the truth. We have realized it from their writings; they are closer to the truth and to a right understanding than all the other peoples, for they acknowledge God. They believe in him, the creator and builder of the universe, in whom all things are and from whom everything comes.—Aristides, Apology 15, 16; ca, AD 137 There is one rule of faith: this is the belief [testified to in the following]. There is one and absolutely only one God and no other than the creator of the universe, who, through his own Word sent down before all other things, brought into being everything out of nothing…We believe as we have always done – and even more now since we have been better instructed by the representative advocate, who truly leads men into all truth – we believe that there is only one true God, namely in that administration of his household which we call “economy,” that there is only one son of the one and only God, who is his own Word, who proceeded from him, through whom everything was made and without whom nothing was made…–Tertullian, On Shows 4; The Prescriptions of Heretics 20, 13; against Praxeus 2; Concerning the Veiling of Virgins 1 We think of God the creator of all things as being far above all that is corruptible. Justin, First Apology 20. I have shown sufficiently that we are not atheists, for ours is the one God, uncreated and eternal, invisible, immutable, incomprehensible, inconceivable, to be grasped only by the mind and by reason, surrounded by light and beauty, by Spirit and power to an ineffable degree: he by whose word the universe was created, was set in order, and is ruled.–Athenagoras, A Plea Regarding Christians 10. We think of God the creator of all things as being far above all that is corruptible. Justin, First Apology 20. Is it right, I ask, to charge us with atheism, we who clearly distinguish God from matter and prove that matter is something quite different from God and that there is a tremendous distance between them? We show that the divine being is uncreated and eternal, to be grasped only by mind and spirit. Matter on the other hand is created and corruptible. Athenagoras, A Plea Regarding Christians 4. The sacrifice most pleasing to him is that we try to recognize who stretched out and vaulted the heavens and set the earth as the center, who gathered the water into seas and separated light from darkness, who adorned the ether with stars and made the earth bring forth all manner of seed, who called the animals into being and created man. If we follow God as the molder who holds all things together and watches over all things with that same wisdom and skill with which he governs the universe, and if we lift up holy hands to him, what need does he have then of ritual sacrifices? Beautiful indeed is the world, glorious in its magnitude, in the arrangement of the stars, both in the zodiac and around the constellation of the Great Dipper and in its form as a sphere. Yet the world for these reasons does not deserve to be worshipped; rather does its sublime artificer…God himself is everything: unapproachable light! Perfect beauty! Spirit! Power! Word! If the world were a well-tuned instrument played in rhythm, I would not worship the instrument but him who made it and tuned it, who strikes the notes and sings the song that fits the melody. God is the perfect good and eternally does only good. Athenagoras, A Plea Regarding Christians 13, 16. [1] Copan and Craig, Creation Out of Nothing, Intro pg 11, Baker Academic, 2004 LeaveaReply

Why Is There Something Rather Than Nothing?-Creation ex nihilo - Existence of God
" Why Is There Something Rather Than Nothing?-Creation ex nihilo - Existence of God

read James Noel Hubler | Semantic Scholar
read Review: Out of Nothing: A History of Creation ex Nihilo in Early Christian Thought on JSTOR

downloaded Creatio ex Nihilo: Matter, Creation, and the Body
in Classical and Christian Philosophy Through
Aquinas
James Noel Hubler
University of Pennsylvania

https://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2119&context=edissertations

for above googled James Hubler creation eternal matter

 

[Daniel Marsh]

John Skinner, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on Genesis is based on trying to harmonize modern science of evolution with Genesis. In short it is not based on Exegesis.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"The main difference between the classical metaphysical template and the biblical metanarrative template is that the former places God and his acts in a spiritual, timeless, non-historical realm of reality, while the latter places God and his acts in the historical continuum of created reality. This methodological template helps us understand why Roman Catholic and Protestant theologians correctly argue that since evolution fits the template of classical metaphysics, they can harmonize it to Christianity without changing its theological structure and inner logic."
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/232859718.pdf

...

 

[Daniel Marsh]

There is nothing in this verse that rules out God speaking to unformed matter and having it shaped to
His liking. No one else speaks to nothing. Why would God?




"framed by the word of God" assumes starting with some sort of raw material. Absolute nothing can't be framed.




Regarding this verse, James Hubler notes "The verse's 'non-existent' need not be understood in an absolute sense of non-being. μὴ ὄντα (mē onta) refers to the previous non-existence of those things which are now brought into existence. There is no direct reference to the absence or presence of a material cause." (James Noel Hubler, Creatio ex Nihilo: Matter, Creation, and the Body in Classical and Christian Philosophy Through Aquinas, Ph.D. Diss. University of Pennsylvania (Ann Arbor: UNI Dissertation Services, 1997), 108.)

I hope this helps...

Psalm 33
Easy-to-Read Version
33 Rejoice in the Lord, good people!
It is only right for good people to praise him.
2 Play the lyre and praise the Lord.
Play the ten-stringed harp for him.
3 Sing a new song[a] to him.
Play it well and sing it loud!
4 The Lord’s word is true,
and he is faithful in everything he does.
5 He loves goodness and justice.
The Lord’s faithful love fills the earth.
6 The Lord spoke the command, and the world was made.
The breath from his mouth created everything in the heavens.
7 He gathered together the water of the sea.
He put the ocean in its place.
8 Everyone on earth should fear and respect the Lord.
All the people in the world should fear him,
9 because when he speaks, things happen.
And if he says, “Stop!”—then it stops.
10 The Lord can ruin every decision the nations make.
He can spoil all their plans.
11 But the Lord’s decisions are good forever.
His plans are good for generation after generation.
12 Great blessings belong to those who have the Lord as their God!
He chose them to be his own special people.
13 The Lord looked down from heaven
and saw all the people.
14 From his high throne he looked down
at all the people living on earth.
15 He created every person’s mind,
and he knows what each one is doing.
16 A king is not saved by the power of his army.
A soldier does not survive by his own great strength.
17 Horses don’t really bring victory in war.
Their strength cannot help you escape.
18 The Lord watches over his followers,
those who wait for him to show his faithful love.
19 He saves them from death.
He gives them strength when they are hungry.
20 So we will wait for the Lord.
He helps us and protects us.
21 He makes us happy.
We trust his holy name.
22 Lord, we worship you,
so show your great love for us.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Hebrews 11
Expanded Bible

What Is Faith?
11 Faith means ·being sure [the assurance; or the tangible reality; or the sure foundation] of the things we hope for and ·knowing that something is real even if we do not see it [the conviction/assurance/evidence about things not seen]. 2 Faith is the reason ·we remember [or God commended/approved] ·great people who lived in the past [the people of old; the ancients; our spiritual ancestors].

3 It is by faith we understand that the ·whole world [universe; cosmos; ages] was made by God’s ·command [word; Gen. 1] so what we see was ·made by something that cannot be seen [L not made from/by visible things].

4 It was by faith that Abel offered God a ·better [more acceptable] sacrifice than Cain [Gen. 4:4–8]. God ·said he was pleased with [commended him for; bore testimony to] the gifts Abel offered and ·called Abel [commended him as; testified that he was] a ·good [righteous] man because of his faith. Abel died, but through his faith he is still speaking [12:24].

Matter can be seen. Spirit is not made of matter.