COVID-19. I disagree with my pastors.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Than my mask? But I didn't tell you what mask I have, so how could you surmise? It's a 2 yr old N95, a little dirty from occasional outdoor work, but still quite useable.

I'm not getting personal. We're talking about masks, in general, and your average cloth mask out there is not an N95.

 

[Halbhh]

I just got done pushing enveloped virus through a filter with much smaller pore size than your mask. According to the procedure that I followed, the reduction of virus concentration should be negligible. If not, then I'm probably going to fail my QC and have a bad day.

So, contrary to your encouragement, that's actually very bad to know, at least for me.

I would stay to debate further, but I already have easy access to a solid concrete wall, should my head be needing it (I'm too tired to argue).

I'm not an arguer either. I tend to search for anything I can agree with, even.

But here, it's merely about which particles are being captured.

Typical information about spread of the virus via droplets, via the CDC (U.S. (federal) Centers for Disease Control)

"COVID-19 spreads mainly from person to person through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs, sneezes, talks, or raises their voice (e.g., while shouting, chanting, or singing). These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. "
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

So, the dense cloth masks help by capturing droplets, which are of course vastly larger than individual virus particles. The value, again, in the cloth masks is not that they stop all virus exposure(!) -- they don't! -- but that they stop much virus via droplets (a large amount of virus!), so that the exposure is greatly reduced in quantity. This is not good enough for health care workers, but is very helpful for average people going to a store for shopping.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I've also read in many places the virus is in the air in 2 forms, not 1. Not just as individual particles, but in droplets also. Of course it's the droplets that the surgical and multilayer cloth masks will help with.

Yes, I'm familiar with the aerosol concept. I also know that both of those masks are not permitted in BSL 3 virology labs, by WHO and CDC guidelines, because they are ineffective at stopping both the aerosol and the dry virus (in this case a dry virus tends to be an inactive one). Yes, I know that the mask is to protect others from me, and not the other way around, but I still don't think it prevents the aerosols from shooting out the sides.

I'm not here to tell you that it does no good to wear a mask. I only think that it does too little good for people to go around calling others idiots or stupid because they forego one. In the long run, which is my only consideration, whether a person gets sick the first week of grocery shopping or the second, he still gets sick.

Perhaps it's a little too nuanced, but I see other considerations besides common illness. I see a sociological and an economic impact. I even see a religious one. I see the consequence of people judging each other, and the consequence of people clinging to a talisman that cannot save them.

You can tell me that your brownies are better than poop, because they're only 35% poop, and 65% wholesome goodness, but I'm not going to applaud you for coming up with a healthy alternative, nor will I agree with you for criticizing a whole-dung eater while you chow down on a 35% dung brownie. While you have yours and I have mine, I fully expect the two of us to get sick all the same. The only difference is that someone will likely write an opinion piece about me for having died from my own foolishness, while yours will be a statistic and a loving obituary.

 

[cappycappy]

My church has signs, free masks and free hand sanitizer to comply with the city regulations. We assemble but the younger church members refuse to wear a mask citing various opinions based on the bible (God will protect me), ?

Quote the Bible back to them, about how they are supposed to be looking out for their neighbors. The fact is they could kill someone by not taking precautions.

 

[rturner76]

That right there is selective compassion, and selective compassion is nothing more than thinly veiled bigotry.[/QUOTE]
If I implicated you personally I apologize. When I referred to "you" I was referring to what I would call "mask protesters" I got the impression you were growing weary of "compassion" because of your opening statement:

I'm getting sick of this "compassion for others" routine.

In the context of your later posts, I see that you were referring to false compassion that is really self-righteousness.

In light of your responses I do apologize for the blitzkrieg I immediately fired off. What I gleaned from your (and others upon reflection) responses is that you can holler and scream day and night and if a person doesn't see the risk or they don't see a valid reason not to comply, it will only strengthen their resolve, even more, essentially pushing them further and further away from your opinion on the subject

Also even though there is a kind of "right and wrong" relating to following regulations or not, the "right" being compliance in that there are rules that you either break or comply with. However, people have a right to their own opinion about the reg's legitimacy, we must encounter those people and back to the earlier point, interacting with people should be done with compassion or I would say "charity" which is not much different.

From my perspective, I was showing compassion by attempting to get people to maximize their own safety AND the safety of their neighbors. To which I thought (and basically still do) that it is showing a lack of compassion to put other families at risk.

So again, apologies, and thank you for helping me understand what you were communicating rather than just assuming I won't "get it" and keeping your opinion to yourself. My opinions can change based on what I learn. With my commission to make disciples, I never take an aggressive approach and only engage with people who have ears to hear. That also be applied to this situation.

Thank you for your patience. It was worth your aggravation because you were able to show at least one person (me) there is an easier, less antagonizing way to communicate with people with an opposite opinion.
For the record. the masks are very annoying to me too. I always get to the door of the place and have to go back to the car because I forget my mask, but I endure. I mostly stay ho

May God Bless your ministry.

 

[Arc F1]

It could be a global conspiracy but could there be a slight possibility it is getting so much attention because it is the biggest outbreak of a deadly contagion since 1968 (so far) and there is no end in sight. Yes outside of your little world this is killing people daily and it is brand new, so almost nobody has an immunity to it. That makes it extremely contagious. During the 7-12 days, you are symptom-free, you unknowingly smear it all over the door handles, gas pumps, etc everywhere you go. How is that only affecting you at that point?

Why are conservatives making this a political issue? It has nothing to do with politics other than they are asking you to what they can to not risk the health and safety of other citizens. Maybe you should expect the protection of your freedom to blast your SARS snot all over someone's grandmother. At the same time should I expect the government to protect me and my 80 year old mother from people who care about making a political statement more than public safety?

It is not unprecedented for the government to make laws to protect public health and safety. Like seatbelt laws, mandatory treatment in emergency rooms, drunk driving and speeding etc etc. The philosophy of "you can't tell me what to do" is for 7 year olds.

My point that got lost in all the comments was why no love before this outbreak? If it's irresponsible and not loving your neighbour now by not wearing a mask, social distance etc. Why wasn't it the same for everything else that causes death? People only seem to care now and I think it's the fear being put forth by the media. If they constantly put forth flue deaths 90k a year people would panic every year.

 

[Halbhh]

Yes, I'm familiar with the aerosol concept. I also know that both of those masks are not permitted in BSL 3 virology labs, by WHO and CDC guidelines, because they are ineffective at stopping both the aerosol and the dry virus (in this case a dry virus tends to be an inactive one). Yes, I know that the mask is to protect others from me, and not the other way around, but I still don't think it prevents the aerosols from shooting out the sides.

I'm not here to tell you that it does no good to wear a mask. I only think that it does too little good for people to go around calling others idiots or stupid because they forego one. In the long run, which is my only consideration, whether a person gets sick the first week of grocery shopping or the second, he still gets sick.

Perhaps it's a little too nuanced, but I see other considerations besides common illness. I see a sociological and an economic impact. I even see a religious one. I see the consequence of people judging each other, and the consequence of people clinging to a talisman that cannot save them.

You can tell me that your brownies are better than poop, because they're only 35% poop, and 65% wholesome goodness, but I'm not going to applaud you for coming up with a healthy alternative, nor will I agree with you for criticizing a whole-dung eater while you chow down on a 35% dung brownie. While you have yours and I have mine, I fully expect the two of us to get sick all the same. The only difference is that someone will likely write an opinion piece about me for having died from my own foolishness, while yours will be a statistic and a loving obituary.

Just to be sure it came across, I have repeatedly pointed out cloth masks don't work/are not good enough for medical workers, so many times now. But was it enough times?

So, cloth masks are only helpful for something like a casual trip to a store like a grocery store because one doesn't have a better mask -- cloth masks are in use because stronger masks like N95s have not been widely available to the public for quite a while.

While we know that obviously there is great variety in cloth masks people wear, ranging from the instance of a mere draped bandanna to the more typical thicker face fitting masks you would often see by June as very common (at least in this state, very common), it's simply a science question, alone, about how well the fabrics filter droplets, I think you'd agree(?).

Such testing result science has been published in this instance from April 2020:

Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks - PubMed

------
We totally agree (always will) on any instance of this wrong -- "I only think that it does too little good for people to go around calling others idiots or stupid because they forego one. "

People judging each other in a condemning or harsh labeling way is always a serious wrong (I feel it's likely we'd always agree), and masks are only an recent possible thing to use, not more prominent than other stuff like mere political leanings, etc. No one on any side of some issue ought to categorically judge individuals on the other side (judging persons as persons, instead of only judging just ideas alone as separate from the person). The problem is the judging itself of course, the tendency to judge an individual has, and the only cure I personally know works (from my experience) is to be convicted by Christ's words, from listening to Him, so to be led to repent and change.

 

[topher694]

If I implicated you personally I apologize. When I referred to "you" I was referring to what I would call "mask protesters" I got the impression you were growing weary of "compassion" because of your opening statement:

In the context of your later posts, I see that you were referring to false compassion that is really self-righteousness.

In light of your responses I do apologize for the blitzkrieg I immediately fired off. What I gleaned from your (and others upon reflection) responses is that you can holler and scream day and night and if a person doesn't see the risk or they don't see a valid reason not to comply, it will only strengthen their resolve, even more, essentially pushing them further and further away from your opinion on the subject

Also even though there is a kind of "right and wrong" relating to following regulations or not, the "right" being compliance in that there are rules that you either break or comply with. However, people have a right to their own opinion about the reg's legitimacy, we must encounter those people and back to the earlier point, interacting with people should be done with compassion or I would say "charity" which is not much different.

From my perspective, I was showing compassion by attempting to get people to maximize their own safety AND the safety of their neighbors. To which I thought (and basically still do) that it is showing a lack of compassion to put other families at risk.

So again, apologies, and thank you for helping me understand what you were communicating rather than just assuming I won't "get it" and keeping your opinion to yourself. My opinions can change based on what I learn. With my commission to make disciples, I never take an aggressive approach and only engage with people who have ears to hear. That also be applied to this situation.

Thank you for your patience. It was worth your aggravation because you were able to show at least one person (me) there is an easier, less antagonizing way to communicate with people with an opposite opinion.
For the record. the masks are very annoying to me too. I always get to the door of the place and have to go back to the car because I forget my mask, but I endure. I mostly stay ho

May God Bless your ministry.

No worries my friend. God bless!

What I gleaned from your (and others upon reflection) responses is that you can holler and scream day and night and if a person doesn't see the risk or they don't see a valid reason not to comply, it will only strengthen their resolve, even more, essentially pushing them further and further away from your opinion on the subject

Yes! This is exactly it. And well said.

I have called out the name calling that happens on both sides of this issue and as a result of that I've had both sides get REALLY mad at me. What that is revealed to me is exactly what you wrote here, on both sides. It's always good to treat others with respect, but in this case it's all the more important, because it is driving a huge wedge between people that doesn't need to be there and causing disunity in the Body of Christ.

 

[rturner76]

My point that got lost in all the comments was why no love before this outbreak? If it's irresponsible and not loving your neighbour now by not wearing a mask, social distance etc. Why wasn't it the same for everything else that causes death? People only seem to care now and I think it's the fear being put forth by the media. If they constantly put forth flue deaths 90k a year people would panic every year.

I think the government actually does make laws when something threatens public health and safety. For example DWI laws. It's a personal choice but it affects everyone who drives if they drink or not. Speeding tickets. Driving too fast threatens public safety. Laws against dumping toxic chemicals in a non designated area. There are rules about labeling trash that contains blood or body fluids as a biohazard. We even have a law about not driving at night with your high beams on if a car is approaching

The list of laws and regulations that are an attempt to stifle behavior that risks public safety goes on and on for miles. So I really don't understand what you mean by "why no love before the outbreak." As it related directly to this GLOBAL PANDEMIC, thousands and thousands of people are catching this daily and a sizeable number of those people die or get permanent lung damage. It is a huge emergency because it has never spread into the human population so almost nobody has built up an immunity to it, meaning if exposed your chances of catching it are increase exponentially compared to pretty much any known pathogen. It is an emergency because there is no end in sight. It hasn't even been contained. They have only temporarily slowed down the spread (in some places).

 

[Toro]

My city allows churches to assemble outdoors as long as they comply with the mask and social distancing requirements.

My church has signs, free masks and free hand sanitizer to comply with the city regulations. We assemble but the younger church members refuse to wear a mask citing various opinions based on the bible (God will protect me), medical opinions on covid (just the flu), etc. News crews show up to video tape the event. The next day the church is contacted by city officials to discuss our compliance issues.

I think the younger Christians are simply not compassionate. They haven't taken Love Your Neighbor to heart. I wish I saw more of a movement to contribute to food banks and medical charities and pray for our neighbors.

My pastors say we have the right to assemble. They focus more on government intervention instead of compliance and compassion for others.

I know the Holy Spirit directs each individual in their own way. I am wondering if I should say something to my pastors OR simply be accepting of their journey. Any ideas?

IMO, if the Spirit is in you.... your conscience will not allow you to remain silent. (IF He has something for you to say.)

In which case, I woukd take your concern to your church elders or other leadership roles and voice your concerns.

If they do not listen, be willing to find another church.

If they listen and give heed to your concerns, truly and not just in a "okay okay sure we will look into it, now shut up" kind of way... then work with them to make those changes as best you can.

They are elders and leaders, but they are not above fault, distraction or struggles themselves. If they do not recognize that even they are not above correction then it may be weighing on your conscience as a way to tell you to move on.

 

[Sam81]

My city allows churches to assemble...

Shocking thing to read.

There wasn't a safety first clause in the Bill of Rights. Those governors who infringe upon our rights should be hung.

More to the point...wear your mask if you want. But don't try and force others to be every bit as fearful and every bit as sheepish as some people. We don't believe everything the left wingers in government and media propagate.

I don't wear a mask at all.

 

[Toro]

Those governors who infringe upon our rights should be hung..

Shocking indeed.

You want to go to church..... and all that get in your way should die.

Its precaution, not persecution.

Even IF it IS persecution.....

Matthew 5:44

Not

"Those that persecute you shall die!!".

 

[Sam81]

"Baaaa"

 

[Thera]

Hoax? A hoax? Tell that to the dead bodies I have had to transport during this pandemic due to Covid-19. Tell that to the people I have had to bring to the hospital who were desperate for oxygen.

This is no hoax! I really hate people sometimes!

People didn't die from a hoax, they died from the flu. The hoax is that the flu is caused by some mysterious virus. If you want to stop people dying, check out what changed just prior to the deaths, don't bother looking for some imagined virus that just decided to pop-out now, instead of any of the rest of history. The answer to what has changed recently is 5G. Strange there have been no safety tests, you must agree, given the extents governments have gone to in order to prevent a virus that hasn't even been scientifically proven.

 

[Thera]

Shocking indeed.

Why is it shocking? Isn't the death penalty a just punishment for treason? Doesn't everyone deserve justice?

 

[Toro]

Why is it shocking? Isn't the death penalty a just punishment for treason? Doesn't everyone deserve justice?

Shocking that one would claim "Jesus is everything" yet ignore His words but choosing instead the ways of the world.

Sure, if you choose to go the way of the world, screaming for death is normal... that is the way of the world... however screaming for death shouldnt be what is screamed by one claiming that "Christ is everything" as their title... its contradictory.

Jesus says forgive.... if one finds Christ to be everything, they should forgive, regardless of mans justice.

If one is persecuted, they should pray for their persecutors.

IF one truly finds Christ to be evetything and loves Him they should obey His commands, not ignore them because its easier to follow the ways of the world.

Jesus shows us that even those in power have zero authority over any of His people that isnt given to them by God, meaning that none can be touched unless God wills it. So, if there is an infringement of rights, it is allowed by God.

IF Jesus is everything.... then one should strive to be as Christ, not as the world, screaming for the death of those that cause inconvenience.

 

[Thera]

Jesus says forgive.... if one finds Christ to be everything, they should forgive, regardless of mans justice.

I don't think forgiveness negates justice. Jesus died for us so we could be forgiven, otherwise, we could not be forgiven. Are you saying it was wrong to hang the war criminals? Or are you saying we should die in their place, so that they can be forgiven?

 

[Toro]

I don't think forgiveness negates justice. Jesus died for us so we could be forgiven, otherwise, we could not be forgiven. Are you saying it was wrong to hang the war criminals? Or are you saying we should die in their place, so that they can be forgiven?

Im saying neither.
Im saying that none escape Gods justice.

IF mans justice or love of country is more important than Gods will, then one should claim mans justice or "patriotism" is everything, not Christ.

Let those of the world seek the worlds justice. Let those that claim the name of Christ seek to be like the one they claim to follow and let God, their Father worry about justice for His people.

Deuteronomy 32:35

Romans 12:17-19

 

[Isilwen]

People didn't die from a hoax, they died from the flu. The hoax is that the flu is caused by some mysterious virus. If you want to stop people dying, check out what changed just prior to the deaths, don't bother looking for some imagined virus that just decided to pop-out now, instead of any of the rest of history. The answer to what has changed recently is 5G. Strange there have been no safety tests, you must agree, given the extents governments have gone to in order to prevent a virus that hasn't even been scientifically proven.

No, they died from Covid-19 which is not the flu!

As for the rest of your post, I can point you to where you can learn to make a tinfoil hat!

 

[Sam81]

Suppose Christians become even more and more of a minority, and one day, an atheistic governor who hates Christians and has the support of the majority comes up with a convenient excuse as to why churches should be shut down for the good and safety of everyone else. The only thing protecting us from that is our Bill of Rights which guarantees LIBERTY. Suspending the rights of people to assemble peacefully and worship their God is NOT okay for ANY reason whatsoever. Any flawed cowardly leader can come up with an excuse that sounds reasonable in their mind and in the mind of brainwashed masses as to why it's a good thing, but our fundamental liberties are not contingent upon anything but what that constitution says.

Our founding fathers realized that those rights had to be absolute. They cannot be bendable for any reason, because people are NOT inherently good, and cannot be entrusted to use situational ethics particularly when it comes to individual liberty.

People have every right to assemble when they want to assemble. And people have every right to cower at home. But no one has the right to infringe upon another's personal liberties for any reason whatsoever. Our liberties are not subject to circumstance and human reason. They are unambiguously guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States of America. Period.