COVID-19. I disagree with my pastors.

[Sophrosyne]

It's still going on, they believe the rise in serious food allergies (nuts etc) and asthma in children is due to non-exposure with the very young (prior to age 1-1/2 or 2)

There's a lot to be said for exposure to germs, allergens and foods at young ages...

I do think we still have yet to determine whether exposure to COVID will produce long term immunity though. There's a good chance it will help, but we really don't know yet. There are a few cases so far of reinfection, but those cases are rare enough to wonder if the individual had a false negative while still ill or some other potential reason(s)..

I do believe whether or not we agree on effectiveness of mask wearing, with the higher level of elderly in our churches we should wear masks, if only to protect the mental health of others....

When it comes to our church family remember, we should not cause our weaker brothers and sisters to fall into what may be for them, sin... pressuring them in areas they feel uncomfortable isn't something we should do. (1 Corinthians 8:6-13 while about eating foods, can be extrapolated to other areas of our lives and fellowship as well)

I believe when it comes to worship, we should watch out for them, as we may bear a greater responsibility here for their spiritual well being...

I agree some with what you have said here. I had asthma as a child and I was allergic to a type of food my sister another type but it wasn't because of over protection of us as children my mom didn't go nuts with keeping things clean and we played outside in the dirt often with no resistance at all to it.
I also find conflicting reports of the topic of immunity to C19 so much that it puts in question any sort of way to rid us of it. If there is no long term immunity to it then even a vaccine would not be easily effective as it could wear off and over time the virus could reemerge coming from another part of the country or even overseas and reinfect the same people all over again. If this is true then masks at best are like putting a band-aid on a bleeding artery it may have limited effect on the rate of the virus passage but the issue about that is also based on conflicting reports.
In other words the information of this virus is way too opinionated and speculative from the start and still we are being subjected to "treatment" or social engineering based upon inadequate data.
If what I've said about the effectiveness of masks is true then one problem with wearing masks is way way too often people trust the mask over proper distancing and let down their guard and get closer than suggested and the virus has that open window... a crappy mask somewhere out there (or a huge amount of crappy masks).
I feel masks are more psychological than physical and that those mandating them don't have any other weapon in their arsenal left to combat this virus and by mandated masking when things go awry they can stand there all puffed up and say I did everything possible knowing that masks aren't going to stop the virus but hey.... they look good to those who are easily emotionally manipulated by the security blanket or mask.

 

[Sophrosyne]

So a little deadly is OK? What is the cut off point? Ibuprofen kills people yet everyone still takes it. Cars kill people yet we still let love ones risk their lives everyday. What I'm trying to figure out is why now all of a sudden people care. My guess is the media attention has people scared. If the news constantly reported on flu deaths every single day people would probably react the same way.

You notice that during the Iraq war the same people in the news that were reporting almost EVERY death in that war became almost silent when Obama took over as president are also the same people almost totally silent during the H1N1 virus when Obama was president are 100% polar opposite now reporting not only deaths from the virus but now equating INFECTIONS as "possible deaths" in the media. It is more than media attention is is media manipulation of the population to instill as much FEAR as possible. A lot of people who are promoting masks know the psychology, that is the way to get people to work together and be more agreeable with each other is to get them to "do the same thing" that includes dressing the same, having the same identification "badges" so that some part of them "looks" the same when they are out and about. Masks do EXACTLY this. People who greatly differ from each other in morality and politics who aren't on the ball are "feeling" like they are part of this huge crowd and those who are FORCING masks are making everyone "the same" and in this it is a LOT easier to continue on this way and mandate the next and next thing. If you look at cults and movements and so on they all have identification. Now that in a LOT of the country everyone looks the same (masks) people who are buying into this are now feeling LESS an individual and MORE a part of a herd. It is hard to control an individual animal of some species but when you have a herd of them with a lead animal if you control the lead animal you control the herd.

 

[Sophrosyne]

The same methods used to put pressure to stop the Vietnam war and to put pressure on those in office that they don't like during the Iraq war is being implemented on this covid war here. Take figures of people injured/infected/dead and constantly bombard the public daily exaggerating the numbers and making people think that 160k people dying over 4 months in the US means everyone is going to DIE and the only "CURES" left is to shut down everything and/or put token masks on everyone. If the virus ignores these masks expect these same people to want to shut things down and continue to say the world is coming to an end when the death count hits 200k people in the US.
People need to stop the emotional manipulation and shaming and peer pressure and every other methods to make people conform to wear masks and get some serious hard science and IF masks can be made to be effective BAN all masks that aren't effective and mandate standards for them that guarantee known and tested effectiveness of them and stop the lies about how well they work. I would rather know a masks is 30% effective and if I'm at risk be able to take further precautions to decrease my risk than be sold a bunch of baloney by people that are leaders of the local government AND health departments that constantly say "masks (help) keep you SAFE".

 

[Thera]

The "phrase" for it is called "virtue signaling" and typically along with it comes an ego boost IMO.

Indeed, it could be argued those who do wear masks are not loving their neighbours, for so long as people kowtow to their governments, the governments' ridiculous list of mandates will grow ever longer. If everybody had just carried on as normal when this hoax was declared, the governments would not have succeeded in destroying so many jobs and lives.

 

[Archivist]

Indeed, it could be argued those who do wear masks are not loving their neighbours, for so long as people kowtow to their governments, the governments' ridiculous list of mandates will grow ever longer. If everybody had just carried on as normal when this hoax was declared, the governments would not have succeeded in destroying so many jobs and lives.

Why don’t you tell the families of the 155,000+ who have died from this virus that their loved ones actually died from a hoax. I’m sure they would love to know that.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Do what you want but don't expect other Christians to follow suit.

Yes that is a really Christian attitude isn't it? Me! Me! Me!

What I expect is for Christians to be sensible and not reactive. It seems from everything I've seen that Christians are coming up with all sorts of reasons for not wearing masks when they meet together, but the only valid one I can think of is that masks are more likely to cause a person to catch COVID.

As yet there is no evidence to support that and plenty of evidence to suggest that they have some impact on prevention, even if a small one.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Indeed, it could be argued those who do wear masks are not loving their neighbours, for so long as people kowtow to their governments, the governments' ridiculous list of mandates will grow ever longer. If everybody had just carried on as normal when this hoax was declared, the governments would not have succeeded in destroying so many jobs and lives.

Is this a ridiculous mandate? Not if COVID is real. Is it a hoax? Not according to the scientists. If you took the tin foil off of your head you might see that.

 

[Isilwen]

Indeed, it could be argued those who do wear masks are not loving their neighbours, for so long as people kowtow to their governments, the governments' ridiculous list of mandates will grow ever longer. If everybody had just carried on as normal when this hoax was declared, the governments would not have succeeded in destroying so many jobs and lives.

Hoax? A hoax? Tell that to the dead bodies I have had to transport during this pandemic due to Covid-19. Tell that to the people I have had to bring to the hospital who were desperate for oxygen.

This is no hoax! I really hate people sometimes!

 

[Halbhh]

The pastor knows what is going on I'm sure. Younger people are essentially at no risk from this virus. If the laws are that masks are mandatory... period then he will do something about it but some places don't require masks if distancing is not a problem at all not sure of your situation. Personally I thinks masks are WAY overrated in their effectiveness I think they are more a (bad) psychological weapon to ease public concerns about this virus that are blown way out of proportion purposely by the media and politicians.
I believe if you are at risk rely on distancing FIRST and foremost and masks LAST. If health workers aren't allowed to use cheap 99 cent masks then there must be a reason and if they are getting INFECTED while wearing the best N95 mask available then NO mask is proof against this virus.... NONE will protect you totally.
If you feel safe wearing a mask...... you are being fooled IMO. Distancing works.... masks.... don't bet on them.

Because it can save (temporary mortal) lives to have only a mild case of the virus instead of one of the severe cases, this information below can save temporary mortal lives of others, and we learn by following Christ's instruction to us in the Good Samaritan parable that helping others physically to survive is one of our instructions --

Luke 10:37 "The one who showed him mercy," replied the expert in the law. Then Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
(here we see we are to actually help others also in physical need or suffering or danger)

Recent studies have shown a surprising result: it matters how much virus, whether a little or a lot, you are exposed to at once --

"If you’re unlucky enough to encounter an infectious person, wearing any kind of face covering will reduce the amount of virus that your body will take in.

"As it turns out, that’s pretty important. Breathing in a small amount of virus may lead to no disease or far more mild infection. But inhaling a huge volume of virus particles can result in serious disease or death."

Masks offer much more protection against coronavirus than many think

additional articles:
How much of the coronavirus does it take to make you sick? - STAT

"A range of new research on face coverings shows that the risk of infection to the wearer is decreased by 65 percent, said Dean Blumberg, chief of pediatric infectious diseases at UC Davis Children’s Hospital."
Your Mask Cuts Own Risk by 65 Percent

good to know,
@Hazelelponi
@BNR32FAN
@Brighid
@SashaMaria
@NW82
@nonaeroterraqueous
@Joined2krist
@Swan7
@Gracia Singh

 

[Halbhh]

My city allows churches to assemble outdoors as long as they comply with the mask and social distancing requirements.

My church has signs, free masks and free hand sanitizer to comply with the city regulations. We assemble but the younger church members refuse to wear a mask citing various opinions based on the bible (God will protect me), medical opinions on covid (just the flu), etc. News crews show up to video tape the event. The next day the church is contacted by city officials to discuss our compliance issues.

I think the younger Christians are simply not compassionate. They haven't taken Love Your Neighbor to heart. I wish I saw more of a movement to contribute to food banks and medical charities and pray for our neighbors.

My pastors say we have the right to assemble. They focus more on government intervention instead of compliance and compassion for others.

I know the Holy Spirit directs each individual in their own way. I am wondering if I should say something to my pastors OR simply be accepting of their journey. Any ideas?

It sounds like your pastor is in the right place in some ways, but of course would not have the more new and largely unknown information about why a mask can actually matter more than we'd expect, even past the good effect of reducing how much an asymptomatic person might them self spread the virus. That's largely known. But what is more new and not widely known is that face coverings also help those that will get symptoms get less sick, have milder cases(!)...

This may help some less mature Christians that don't yet have all the aspects of "love your neighbor as yourself" as fully as a more mature Christian will. We can still help the younger Christians learn where they are at, at the level where they are, that they are not only helping protect others with masks, but even helping cases that happen to be more mild, less dangerous, for many in less youthful vigor! See post #169 just above.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Indeed, it could be argued those who do wear masks are not loving their neighbours, for so long as people kowtow to their governments, the governments' ridiculous list of mandates will grow ever longer. If everybody had just carried on as normal when this hoax was declared, the governments would not have succeeded in destroying so many jobs and lives.

I wouldn't call the virus a hoax, but I think that a lot of people who should be able to portray this virus for what it truly is are either corrupt, inept, or afraid of public opinion and it is causing this thing to be overblown and I think a lot of people are losing their lives economically and psychologically (mental health) and a lot of people are getting filthy rich not caring about how many die while virtue signaling.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I agree some with what you have said here. I had asthma as a child and I was allergic to a type of food my sister another type but it wasn't because of over protection of us as children my mom didn't go nuts with keeping things clean and we played outside in the dirt often with no resistance at all to it.
I also find conflicting reports of the topic of immunity to C19 so much that it puts in question any sort of way to rid us of it. If there is no long term immunity to it then even a vaccine would not be easily effective as it could wear off and over time the virus could reemerge coming from another part of the country or even overseas and reinfect the same people all over again. If this is true then masks at best are like putting a band-aid on a bleeding artery it may have limited effect on the rate of the virus passage but the issue about that is also based on conflicting reports.
In other words the information of this virus is way too opinionated and speculative from the start and still we are being subjected to "treatment" or social engineering based upon inadequate data.
If what I've said about the effectiveness of masks is true then one problem with wearing masks is way way too often people trust the mask over proper distancing and let down their guard and get closer than suggested and the virus has that open window... a crappy mask somewhere out there (or a huge amount of crappy masks).
I feel masks are more psychological than physical and that those mandating them don't have any other weapon in their arsenal left to combat this virus and by mandated masking when things go awry they can stand there all puffed up and say I did everything possible knowing that masks aren't going to stop the virus but hey.... they look good to those who are easily emotionally manipulated by the security blanket or mask.

First, if a vaccine isn't able to provide total immunity then it will become like a tetanus shot you need a periodic booster for, or like a flu vaccine that has to be taken annually... by the time a vaccine is developed we will know more scientifically valid information.

Until then, yes... it's a LOT of guessing and doing our best with what information we have...

Here's my ultimate point - NOW we aren't talking politics, we are speaking of our brethern in assembly, in church.

All politics stop at the door. I believe as you do, I think masks are ineffective tools that are nothing more than a placebo, and cannot in any circumstance be placed in front of real scientific fact, that hand washing etc. is the most important thing we can do.

In CHURCH, I am willing (and feel comfortable advocating for) wearing a mask because placebo or not, for a segment of society including some Christians, it puts their minds at ease and makes them feel better.

We don't want our actions to make people feel uncomfortable in assembly, and for the Christian faith, assembly isn't in question as to its necessity... I'd rather see a 90 y/o brother in sister in Christ sitting in a pew on Sunday, than feeling like they have to stay home.

I want to remind our brethren of God, and remind them to trust in God in all things, especially with issues such as this, but I want to do that in assembly, and if my wearing a mask makes people feel better and more likely to attend in congregation then I'll do it.

I'll fight tooth and nail about the legality of forcing what doesnt work on the masses as some kind of opiate, that's politics; but in our church families while in assembly, I'm not going to make those weaker in faith uncomfortable about being in assembly... assembly is a non negotiable matter of faith, how much you trust God just goes to the strength of that faith... and we aren't all equal in that.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Because it can save (temporary mortal) lives to have only a mild case of the virus instead of one of the severe cases, this information below can save temporary mortal lives of others, and we learn by following Christ's instruction to us in the Good Samaritan parable that helping others physically to survive is one of our instructions --

Luke 10:37 "The one who showed him mercy," replied the expert in the law. Then Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
(here we see we are to actually help others also in physical need or suffering or danger)

Recent studies have shown a surprising result: it matters how much virus, whether a little or a lot, you are exposed to at once --

"If you’re unlucky enough to encounter an infectious person, wearing any kind of face covering will reduce the amount of virus that your body will take in.

"As it turns out, that’s pretty important. Breathing in a small amount of virus may lead to no disease or far more mild infection. But inhaling a huge volume of virus particles can result in serious disease or death."

Masks offer much more protection against coronavirus than many think

additional articles:
How much of the coronavirus does it take to make you sick? - STAT

"A range of new research on face coverings shows that the risk of infection to the wearer is decreased by 65 percent, said Dean Blumberg, chief of pediatric infectious diseases at UC Davis Children’s Hospital."
Your Mask Cuts Own Risk by 65 Percent

good to know,
@Hazelelponi
@BNR32FAN
@Brighid
@SashaMaria
@NW82
@nonaeroterraqueous
@Joined2krist
@Swan7
@Gracia Singh

Would you wear a mask the rest of your life if you were told it would only temporarily save one person for 6 months?

 

[Sophrosyne]

First, if a vaccine isn't able to provide total immunity then it will become like a tetanus shot you need a periodic booster for, or like a flu vaccine that has to be taken annually... by the time a vaccine is developed we will know more scientifically valid information.

Until then, yes... it's a LOT of guessing and doing our best with what information we have...

Here's my ultimate point - NOW we aren't talking politics, we are speaking of our brethern in assembly, in church.

All politics stop at the door. I believe as you do, I think masks are ineffective tools that are nothing more than a placebo, and cannot in any circumstance be placed in front of real scientific fact, that hand washing etc. is the most important thing we can do.

In CHURCH, I am willing (and feel comfortable advocating for) wearing a mask because placebo or not, for a segment of society including some Christians, it puts their minds at ease and makes them feel better.

We don't want our actions to make people feel uncomfortable in assembly, and for the Christian faith, assembly isn't in question as to its necessity... I'd rather see a 90 y/o brother in sister in Christ sitting in a pew on Sunday, than feeling like they have to stay home.

I want to remind our brethren of God, and remind them to trust in God in all things, especially with issues such as this, but I want to do that in assembly, and if my wearing a mask makes people feel better and more likely to attend in congregation then I'll do it.

I'll fight tooth and nail about the legality of forcing what doesnt work on the masses as some kind of opiate, that's politics; but in our church families while in assembly, I'm not going to make those weaker in faith uncomfortable about being in assembly.

The problem is.... if the vaccine only lasts 3 months and you don't vaccinate the whole planet then it is only another temporary band-aid and if the virus mutates before the vaccine is ready it could take another year to "match" the new strain and then that can mutate so you may never catch up.
The vaccine to me is like a "hail mary" pass in football with the virus out there having guys that are an average of a foot taller than our guys making the virus.
As for the mask placebo I agree to a point but the ignored huge problem I see with masks is a LOT of people BELIEVE that they are SAFE wearing a mask and they don't distance themselves purposely perhaps even religiously and that IMO makes the LESS safe than they could be without masks.

 

[Halbhh]

Would you wear a mask the rest of your life if you were told it would only temporarily save one person for 6 months?

Interesting question! Lucky the real choice isn't like that one!

Well, if it was clear that might help someone be saved -- to have more time to hear the gospel, such as by having a mild case that scared them straight, so to speak, without killing them, giving them time to convert, then I hope I would be quite willing. Of course, it's an artificial question in that the person survives physically only 6 more months in your example, but the mask wearer is asked to wear a mask for years or even decades more(?), though we expect the virus to be subdued within a year. I get it's like asking would you greatly sacrifice yourself just for a small gain for someone else, and I think these questions are too artificial -- unreal -- but that the real life actual situations are actually more interesting.

The much more interesting question: would one wear an uncomfortable mask (like a doctor must), for another 8 months, to likely help quite a few other people quite a lot. That's more complex, in that we can do right on one day, and stumble on another, as we see in the New Testament more than once. We aren't required to never stumble, but instead are to confess and repent, and be restored.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The problem is.... if the vaccine only lasts 3 months and you don't vaccinate the whole planet then it is only another temporary band-aid and if the virus mutates before the vaccine is ready it could take another year to "match" the new strain and then that can mutate so you may never catch up.
The vaccine to me is like a "hail mary" pass in football with the virus out there having guys that are an average of a foot taller than our guys making the virus.
As for the mask placebo I agree to a point but the ignored huge problem I see with masks is a LOT of people BELIEVE that they are SAFE wearing a mask and they don't distance themselves purposely perhaps even religiously and that IMO makes the LESS safe than they could be without masks.

In early preliminary testing it does appear that vaccinations are having a good effect, providing actual immunity. The length of time that immunity lasts is something we will learn more about in time.. but they've been doing human trials since February, and so far so good... and there are health-care workers taking part of the vaccination study, so they are definitely being exposed.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Interesting question! Lucky the real choice isn't like that one!

Well, if it was clear that might help someone be saved -- to have more time to hear the gospel, such as by having a mild case that scared them straight, so to speak, without killing them, giving them time to convert, then I hope I would be quite willing. Of course, it's an artificial question in that the person survives physically only 6 more months in your example, but the mask wearer is asked to wear a mask for years or even decades more(?), though we expect the virus to be subdued within a year. I get it's like asking would you greatly sacrifice yourself just for a small gain for someone else, and I think these questions are too artificial -- unreal -- but that the real life actual situations are actually more interesting.

The much more interesting question: would one wear an uncomfortable mask (like a doctor must), for another 8 months, to likely help quite a few other people quite a lot. That's more complex, in that we can do right on one day, and stumble on another, as we see in the New Testament more than once.

Since you totally avoided my direct question I will do likewise and avoid answering yours.

 

[Sophrosyne]

In early preliminary testing it does appear that vaccinations are having a good effect, providing actual immunity. The length of time that immunity lasts is something we will learn more about in time.. but they've been doing human trials since February, and so far so good... and there are health-care workers taking part of the vaccination study, so they are definitely being exposed.

We shall see what happens. I'm not holding my breath about a vaccine and I've heard now there is some corruptness going around on the medical/drug portion of this virus that has HCQ being all but totally banned to possibly make some folks rich over some other very expensive treatments that may be pushed through testing quickly to be used that could make some folks extremely rich.. my optimism of a treatment of those infected that would all but eliminate the need for most hospitalizations and perhaps the "need" for faceless society has waned.

 

[Hazelelponi]

We shall see what happens. I'm not holding my breath about a vaccine and I've heard now there is some corruptness going around on the medical/drug portion of this virus that has HCQ being all but totally banned to possibly make some folks rich over some other very expensive treatments that may be pushed through testing quickly to be used that could make some folks extremely rich.. my optimism of a treatment of those infected that would all but eliminate the need for most hospitalizations and perhaps the "need" for faceless society has waned.

Trust in God.

 

[Halbhh]

Since you totally avoided my direct question I will do likewise and avoid answering yours.

Well, I answered by pointing out the question was unrealistic.

But, let's suppose you did have a crystal ball, and could know that if you yourself wear a mask for 15 years, it would temporarily save one life for only 6 months. Would you?

Real answer: no one can answer because we don't actually know the future, but in the abstract pretend question we can easily say "Yes" (even if we can't keep it perfectly).

Is that more clear?

Here's a fun one in a like manner -- if you could save Trump's life for 3 days longer by wearing a mask for 12 years, would you?

I know it's an imaginary question totally unlike real life, but that's what we are asking here.