Could Someone Explain Calvinism?

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Hi TK, you're right, you didn't say "most", what you said was "many .. but not all"!

Just to be clear, I realize that the WBC "claims" to hold to the 5 points of Calvinism, but saying that doesn't make them Calvinists (nor do they 'claim' to be Calvinists) any more than their claiming to be "Christian" makes that a fact. They use some of the 5 Points of Calvinism, just like they use Christianity, by bending/distorting what both teach to further their own agenda.

The fact is, NO Reformed denomination (Presbyterian/Reformed Baptist, etc.), espouses anything resembling the views of the WBC, nor do any local churches within those denominations. And if an individual member chose to do so publicly, they would be brought before their Elder board and asked to either recant their views or leave (IOW, they would be disciplined and put out of the church for such beliefs if they did not fully and publicly recant of them, as I'm sure they would be in the EOC ;)).

So there are not "MANY" Reformed Churches or individual Calvinists who believe what the racist, homophobic, hate-filled WBC does (or even just a "few"), rather, there are NONE!!

If you have evidence to the contrary, about a church or an individual within the Reformed faith, then show us that evidence (as I would want to know who they are). As I said in my original reply to you however, you won't find any, because Calvinists are, first and foremost, Christians, and Christians do not hold to the tenets of hate groups like the WBC.

Yours and His,
David

This is like saying that all Arminians believe the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (aka Mormons) because the Mormon church holds to the "free agency" of the human will.
 
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the old scribe

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While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.
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Since I am new to this forum and have not read all of the other 142 replies, one would expect the information of this post ought to have already been posted because it common knowledge. To understand the rationality used by Reformed or Calvinistic theologians one must begin with the Reformed or Calvinistic definition of divine sovereignty.

Reformed or Calvinistic theologians begin by defining divine sovereignty as both necessary and absolute. Simply put, all things are controlled by YHWH. This is a definition of sovereignty which requires more than the ability and power to control but requires the divine act of actually controlling. For the Reformed or Calvinistic theologian, if YHWH does not act He is not sovereign. Nothing occurs without YHWH’s action.


Accordingly, even a believer’s faith arises from a divine initiative and not of the free will responding to the hearing of the gospel message. Such a theological paradigm interprets every verse in the Bible which hints at man’s free will as dependent upon a prior divine action. Examples: The following two verses are interpreted to deny the human will played a primary or responsive role.

John 3:16 WEB

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Mark 16:15-16 WEB

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world, and preach the Good News to the whole creation. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.

If in some different theologies, it is understood divine sovereignty allows YHWH to either act or not act as he chooses, then responding to the gospel message could be by the human will. In other words, it is not necessary for YHWH to exercise His sovereignty for Him to be sovereign. This is a different definition of divine sovereignty than that of Calvinism or Reformed Theology.

Because Reformed and Calvinistic theology holds to a definition of an absolute and necessary divine sovereignty, devoid of divine inaction, logically, then the five points of Calvinism must be held in unison or their theology about salvation is self contradictory. By using this definition of divine sovereignty there is not any contradictions in the five points of Calvinistic or Reformed Theology (TULIP). If one holds to only some of the five points of Calvinist or of Reformed Theology, it results in an illogical or contradictory position concerning salvation.

To understand Reformed and Calvinistic interpretations of the relevant Bible passages, the knowledge of their doctrine of divine sovereignty is required.
 
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the old scribe

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Hello David and all,
I wanted to add something real quick. Yes, traditional Arminians like Arminius and his followers attempted to reconcile the belief in human choice with the belief in individual election in the manner you describe. To them (and to me) this attempt to reconcile these two concepts was plagued with problems form the start. The problem was that they had been so immersed in the notion of individual election that they apparently never thought to challenge it. The real 'fix' to the problem is a complete rejection of the notion of individual election, and the acceptance of corporate election. Corporate election is truly opposite of what calvinism teaches.
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This difference between individual election and corporate election is essential in understanding Romans 9-11.
The Old Testament individuals used as example by the Apostle Paul are by their context referring to peoples and not individuals.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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This difference between individual election and corporate election is essential in understanding Romans 9-11.
The Old Testament individuals used as example by the Apostle Paul are by their context referring to peoples and not individuals.

The objection in Romans 9:18 is out of place if Paul was not speaking about individual election.
 
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the old scribe

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Well, it may be in this last day that people will lose their congregational identities, but will also be united in believing the same things concerning the one true Gospel. Consider that in the last days there will be 2 witnesses (Rev. 11) whom God appoints to represent him and speak every truth of the Gospel to the world. Anyone listening to them will know that every word that comes out of their mouth is the true Gospel. For some Christians, it will help them to sort out which doctrines are false or irrelevant, and for some non-believers it will torment them. These 2 witnesses apparently will assure that God's exact message to the world will be accurate and concise, not a mish-mash of various doctrines that people think are Christian.
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Last days of what?

The Revelation 1:3 NASB

3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The Revelation 22:10 NASB

10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
 
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the old scribe

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I didn't say it wasn't!
But if there is no salvation save the elect, then God has created and sustained us just to throw them in hell.
But that is not what He has said, and to throw all those souls into hell because HE chose not to elect them is the worst type of monster.
If I am not elected, even though I pray, go to Church, live a pious life, have been born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit, He has created ME just to go to hell. You see, even though you may THINK you are elected, you don't KNOW for sure, as God does not reveal where you end up until after you are dead. And if You are not elected, You will end up in hell too.
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Election – foreknowledge – predestination – assurance or eternal security


These divine actions do not belong to humans.

These applied to and are only in Christ.

In Christ the believer or the body of Christ is elected, foreknown, predestined and has assurance.


If you are in Christ


The correct idea about Salvation as being only in Christ and is not a commodity or a license or certificate. Only if the believer participates in the existence of Christ, either by divine action or by the will, can it be said there is Salvation. It is not a gift in the sense of receiving an object which the believer possesses, but using gift as a metaphor for Salvation refers to the fact that it cannot be bought or earned.


Salvation essentially is limited to having an ongoing relationship with the Lord Jesus where as in Ephesians 1:6 it reads that Salvation is the acceptance by God in Christ. Since it is only Christ who is accepted, all who are in His Body are accepted. What is true of Christ is true for believers only if believers “stay” joined "in Christ."

The salvation Christ provides is not in us. Salvation is only in Christ and only if we are “in Christ” are we able to participate in His Salvation. What is true of Christ is true for believers only if believers “stay” joined in Christ.

Here is an analogy about being "in Christ."
It is the Queen Mary 2 transatlantic from New York to South Hampton. If you buy a ticket, get on board and don’t jump overboard, you will arrive in South Hampton having enjoyed all the luxuries of the Queen Mary 2 and the benefits of being in South Hampton.

Now, let the names be changed:
It is the Lord Jesus’ translife journey from earth to heaven. If you believe, live your life in Christ and don’t jump off the translife journey in Christ, you will arrive in heaven having enjoyed all the luxuries of His Grace while on earth and the benefits of heaven. What is elected, foreknown, predestined, and assured is the Lord Jesus’ translife journey from earth to heaven


JUST DON”T JUMP OVERBOARD when some one tells you the tranlife trip in the Lord Jesus is just a myth.


2 Corinthian 1:8-10 is not about an Apostle Paul who no longer wanted to be an apostle but one under great duress. In the ship analogy the Apostle Paul would still be on board ship or “in Christ.”

Suppose, “If I am saved because I do not jump out of the boat then I can say I am saved because of my actions for I did not jump out of the boat.” If you believe in unconditional election this is logical but not the point. If one jumps overboard it can be safely assumed he is not “in Christ,” was not saved, and is not going to South Hampton. This does not attribute any reason why others remained on board.

Does your personal experience fits the analogy of jumping ship? Granted, just because you jumped ship does not mean the captain does not send a life boat for you. The question is not will the captain try to recover the jumper but will the jumper return to the ship in the life boat? Whatever the case, it is only those on board (in Christ) who can attain the destination of South Hampton. The only points being made of the ship crossing the Atlantic from New York to South Hampton is you must have a ticket for the passage, board the ship and remain on board to arrive in South Hampton. There is nothing mentioned about the motivation of those remaining “in Christ.”


The emphasis - “The salvation Christ provides is not in us. Salvation is only in Christ and only if we are “in Christ” are we able to participate in His Salvation. What is true of Christ is true for believers only if believers stay joined in Christ.


It is conceded that there is the implication that believers must remain on board even while watching others jump ship. If the "not jumping overboard" is an estimate of the believers’ work for salvation - so let it be called works. I see the Bible encouraging believers and not the Holy Ghost to persevere.

Additional issues:

First: Does a believer’s decision to follow the Lord Jesus stems from his own will to follow or from the absolutely sovereign God who allows no free will? If the answer is there is no free will, thus God is entirely responsible for deciding who believes and who does not believe and for who goes to heaven and who suffers the second death. Of course, this is the logical extension of Calvinistic and Reformed theological position of unconditional election.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hi Old Scribe, first off, I see you are brand new here, so WELCOME TO CF .. :wave:

You wrote:
Reformed or Calvinistic theologians begin by defining divine sovereignty as both necessary and absolute. Simply put, all things are controlled by YHWH. This is a definition of sovereignty which requires more than the ability and power to control but requires the divine act of actually controlling. For the Reformed or Calvinistic theologian, if YHWH does not act He is not sovereign. Nothing occurs without YHWH’s action.
That is true only in this sense, that God "ordains" whatsoever comes to pass. However, His ordination does not require His active participation and control of everything that happens. If it did, that would make Him the undoubted Author of Sin and Evil. IOW, He does not cause us to sin, rather, we choose to do that all by ourselves ;) Such is the belief of the heretics who are unfortunately referred to as "Hyper-Calvinists". However, these are hardly Calvinists, nor do they adhere to the tenets of Calvinism.

...even a believer’s faith arises from a divine initiative and not of the free will responding to the hearing of the gospel message.
Again, this is not what Calvinism teaches. All within the pale of orthodoxy teach that saving faith is a "gift" from God .. Ephesians 2:8. Catholics, and Arminian/Free Will Protestants, teach that the "gift" is given to all w/o exception, so our free will choice to accept the gift (according to Catholics/Free Will Protestants), is a choice which is made by the individual APART from His grace, so we become the actual propitiation instead of Christ.

Calvinists, on the other hand, believe that God's grace/His gift of saving faith always results in the salvation of those who receive it (His elect), that it carries with it more than th potential' for our salvation. So we believe that what He offers us is irresistible to us, but we are still the ones who freely choose to believe (as well the ones who actually do the believing).

In Christ,
David
 
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Monk Brendan

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These divine actions do not belong to humans.

These applied to and are only in Christ.

In Christ the believer or the body of Christ is elected, foreknown, predestined and has assurance.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Note: "the world." Not just "the elect."

Welcome to the nuthouse. Find a limb and shake it.
 
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the old scribe

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Hi Old Scribe, first off, I see you are brand new here, so WELCOME TO CF ..

That is true only in this sense, that God "ordains" whatsoever comes to pass. However, His ordination does not require His active participation and control of everything that happens. If it did, that would make Him the undoubted Author of Sin and Evil. IOW, He does not cause us to sin, rather, we choose to do that all by ourselves Such is the belief of the heretics who are unfortunately referred to as "Hyper-Calvinists". However, these are hardly Calvinists, nor do they adhere to the tenets of Calvinism.

Again, this is not what Calvinism teaches. All within the pale of orthodoxy teach that saving faith is a "gift" from God .. Ephesians 2:8. Catholics, and Arminian/Free Will Protestants, teach that the "gift" is given to all w/o exception, so our free will choice to accept the gift (according to Catholics/Free Will Protestants), is a choice which is made by the individual APART from His grace, so we become the actual propitiation instead of Christ.

Calvinists, on the other hand, believe that God's grace/His gift of saving faith always results in the salvation of those who receive it (His elect), that it carries with it more than th potential' for our salvation. So we believe that what He offers us is irresistible to us, but we are still the ones who freely choose to believe (as well the ones who actually do the believing).

In Christ,
David


Thank you David St_Worm2

So, if I change my quoted post to read as follows it would be an acceptable representation of Calvinism?

Reformed or Calvinistic theologians begin by defining divine sovereignty as both necessary and absolute. Simply put, all things are ordained by YHWH. This is a definition of sovereignty which requires more than the ability by requiring divine ordination. For the Reformed or Calvinistic theologian, if YHWH does not ordain He is not sovereign. Nothing occurs without YHWH’s ordination.

Would you please explain divine ordination as it applies to providence and sovereignty?


My suggestion is that the way the word “gift” as is commonly thought of might be inappropriate. When the Apostle Paul uses “gift” as a reference to salvation it does not refer to a gift as being the reception of “saving grace” or saving faith or even belief. Gift used in the sense of receiving something which the believer receives is the wrong idea, for when the Apostle Paul uses gift as a metaphor for Salvation he is referring to the fact that it cannot be bought or earned but salvation is given without regard to merit. It is not as if salvation is a gift, but salvation is being received spiritually into Christ without merit. Christians do not unwrap undeserved packages (gifts) which are from then on something they posses. I think and hope all believers know this difference intuitively but have not focused to make the distinction.

Please see my post #148.



David St_Worm2 posted:

“We believe that what He offers is irresistible, but we are still the ones who freely choose to believe and actually do the believing.”

For me it seems the first part of this quote, “We believe that what He offers is irresistible," is direct contradiction of the second part, "but we are still the ones who freely choose to believe and actually do the believing.”

If Calvinist believe “we are still the ones who freely choose to believe and actually do the believing” would you define irresistible?
 
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the old scribe

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The objection in Romans 9:18 is out of place if Paul was not speaking about individual election.

jimmyjimmy

Romans 9:18 has been suggested to be an exception to referring to a corporate group of people.

Romans 9:14-18 NASB

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Who did the LORD harden? He hardened the heart of Pharaoh who was opposing the plan of the LORD. So, in verse 18 who was it that did not receive mercy? Was it just Pharaoh or the people of Pharaoh – just an individual or a corporate group of people?

Romans 9:14-18 contains no information about salvation.

And it was not just Israelites who took part in the exodus from Egypt but a mixed multitude.

Exodus 12:37-38 NASB

37 Now the sons of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children. 38 A mixed multitude also went up with them, along with flocks and herds, a very large number of livestock.

Again, it was not an individual exiting Egypt but a corporate group of people.
 
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the old scribe

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“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Note: "the world." Not just "the elect."

Welcome to the nuthouse. Find a limb and shake it.

Monk Brenden, if what I do here is to shake limbs I hope the nuts are pecans. What I hope to do is to increase in the knowledge of the LORD, add some beneficial information, and strengthen the brethren. If it is like most Christian forums, a nut house, I will soon not be posting. I am not interested in reading posts where the members are posting their dogma in an effort to convert me. I am interested in aiding the Holy Ghost in producing fruit on our branches.

About your assigned task concerning the updating of hymns - First, you should know that musically, I am retarded. The only music which I can sing are hymns for congregations. I would like to claim my choice of music is a spiritual one, but I suspect it is a choice from inaptness. I have a small collection of about fifteen Protestant hymnals. The editors of these hymnals have demonstrated their theological expertise in the screening of lyrics. This makes reading the lyrics excellent devotional material. These writers amaze me for their spiritual depth and literacy. I suspect the work of the Holy Ghost.

I would appreciate you sharing any of your work on hymns which you find especially wonderful.

Hymns are my personal argument for the inclusion of The Revelation in the canon of scripture. The fifth chapter is referenced in over five hundred Protestant hymns. There are more than twenty five hundred Protestant hymns with references to verses in The Revelation.
 
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Rick Otto

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While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.
Don't have to mention election to explain His reason.
Romans 9-22&23
 
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Don't have to mention election to explain His reason.
Romans 9-22&23

This is a place where Paul is explaining that God will not allow any impure thing into heaven. That is true whether you are Jew, Gentile, white, black, yellow, red, or purple with pink polka-dots. God loves all people. He wants all people with Him in heaven.

However, all people have free will, and some of them walk against God's will. If they repent, and begin cooperating with Him, they will be saved. If not, then they will be broken like earthen vessels.
 
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QUOTE="Monk Brendan, post:This is a place where Paul is explaining that God will not allow any impure thing into heaven.
No it isn't.
It is the answer to your question why God would make people destined for hell ("vessels fitted for destruction")


God loves all people. He wants all people with Him in heaven.
Oh. now I see why you can't answer the question.
You think "all people" means every individual instead of it's correct contextual definition: people besides Israel. You see the context of salvation at the time, was that it was understood, "salvation is of Israel", not the goyim, also known as "the world".

However, all people have free will, and some of them walk against God's will. If they repent, and begin cooperating with Him, they will be saved. If not, then they will be broken like earthen vessels.
"Free" is a relative pronoun.
Only the saved repent because only the saved know they need to. Preaching is foolishness to those who are perishing.
 
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Reformed or Calvinistic theologians begin by defining divine sovereignty as both necessary and absolute. Simply put, all things are controlled by YHWH. This is a definition of sovereignty which requires more than the ability and power to control but requires the divine act of actually controlling. For the Reformed or Calvinistic theologian, if YHWH does not act He is not sovereign. Nothing occurs without YHWH’s action.


Accordingly, even a believer’s faith arises from a divine initiative and not of the free will responding to the hearing of the gospel message. Such a theological paradigm interprets every verse in the Bible which hints at man’s free will as dependent upon a prior divine action. Examples: The following two verses are interpreted to deny the human will played a primary or responsive role.

John 3:16 WEB

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Mark 16:15-16 WEB

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world, and preach the Good News to the whole creation. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.


To understand Reformed and Calvinistic interpretations of the relevant Bible passages, the knowledge of their doctrine of divine sovereignty is required.

In John 3, Saint John the Baptist speaks about Christ coming to bring salvation and the fate of those who put their faith in Him and the fate of those who do not. John the Baptist in John 3, said nothing about predestination nor God choosing who would be saved and who would not.

In the end of Mark 16, Jesus says to preach to all of the world. The Greek meaning behind the word world, means "kosmos", which means the whole entire world and it's universe and EVERYBODY that lives in it. Jesus told his Apostles to preach His gospel to every person, so that each and every person has the opportunity to choose either Jesus or their own way since, according to Acts 17:30, God calls EVERYBODY to turn away from sin and to Christ.

If God is sovereign in dictating every knook and cranny in the world, including people's choices, then how did Eve sin?
 
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St_Worm2

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In John 3, Saint John the Baptist speaks about Christ coming to bring salvation and the fate of those who put their faith in Him and the fate of those who do not. John the Baptist in John 3, said nothing about predestination nor God choosing who would be saved and who would not.

Various aspects of Divine Election are discussed throughout the Bible, but that certainly isn't the case each and every time issues concerning salvation are touched upon. I believe the Baptist did touch upon it in the verses you mentioned however (though in a general and secondary sense):

John 3
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.

John sees the hand of the Father in everything :amen: If people were flocking to Jesus, that was because the Father willed it so.

The words also apply to the believer whose salvation is a gift from God. It could never have been acquired otherwise. It is unlikely that the Baptist meant the words in this sense; his intention is to show the reason for Jesus’ greater success. But the language he uses is certainly capable of this further application. ~Morris, L. (1995). The Gospel according to John (p. 212).

You continue:

In the end of Mark 16, Jesus says to preach to all of the world. The Greek meaning behind the word world, means "kosmos", which means the whole entire world and it's universe and EVERYBODY that lives in it. Jesus told his Apostles to preach His gospel to every person, so that each and every person has the opportunity to choose either Jesus or their own way since, according to Acts 17:30, God calls EVERYBODY to turn away from sin and to Christ.

Biblically, "kosmos" (particularly in the Gospels) = Jews AND Gentiles, IOW, every tribe, tongue, nation, etc., not just Israel. It means all people w/o distinction, not all w/o exception.

If God is sovereign in dictating every knook and cranny in the world, including people's choices, then how did Eve sin?

God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, and His "ordination" includes things that He either "causes" OR "allows" to occur. In either case, He is sovereign :preach:

Just to be clear, God does not "cause" people to sin. Rather, we choose to do that all by ourselves .. James 1:13-15.

Yours and His,
David
 
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the old scribe

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In John 3, Saint John the Baptist speaks about Christ coming to bring salvation and the fate of those who put their faith in Him and the fate of those who do not. John the Baptist in John 3, said nothing about predestination nor God choosing who would be saved and who would not.

In the end of Mark 16, Jesus says to preach to all of the world. The Greek meaning behind the word world, means "kosmos", which means the whole entire world and it's universe and EVERYBODY that lives in it. Jesus told his Apostles to preach His gospel to every person, so that each and every person has the opportunity to choose either Jesus or their own way since, according to Acts 17:30, God calls EVERYBODY to turn away from sin and to Christ.

If God is sovereign in dictating every knook and cranny in the world, including people's choices, then how did Eve sin?
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Tai Kamiya is unknown to me. I had to look it up. Of course, I am too old to get it.

My post was to provide a short explanation of Calvinism/Reformed theology to Monk Brendan rather than defend it. Your post is a stab at Calvinism/Reformed theology. No one ever overcomes the biblical interpretations of those who are Calvinism/Reformed theology. They are so convinced of their doctrines that whatever they have to do to make scripture prove their position, they do so blatantly. The only place to attach their doctrine is in their definition of divine sovereignty - which you finally get to in your last sentence. They must be willing to accept the biblical revelation on divine sovereignty over their philosophical idealism definition of the most extreme or ultimate of ideal sovereignty.

I am uncertain who you wish to address in your post, but I suppose you desire that those holding to a Calvinism/Reformed theology will be reading yours. If you wish to get into a debate of who is right with those holding to a Calvinism/Reformed theology, I suggest starting a new thread. They will be eager to defend their position and attack yours.

PS I see St-worm2 is on guard even before I post.
 
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St_Worm2

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Thank you David St_Worm2

So, if I change my quoted post to read as follows it would be an acceptable representation of Calvinism?

Reformed or Calvinistic theologians begin by defining divine sovereignty as both necessary and absolute. Simply put, all things are ordained by YHWH. This is a definition of sovereignty which requires more than the ability by requiring divine ordination. For the Reformed or Calvinistic theologian, if YHWH does not ordain He is not sovereign. Nothing occurs without YHWH’s ordination.

Would you please explain divine ordination as it applies to providence and sovereignty?

Hi OS, sorry for the lag time in replying to this post of yours. I don't believe I've ever seen the words "necessary" or "absolute" used to describe God's sovereignty, though I suppose they could be used, depending on their intended meaning in regard to sovereignty.

As for explaining God's divine ordination of all things where His sovereignty and providence are concerned, it simply means that anything/everything that happens in the universe is ordained by God, good and bad, or it doesn't happen. For instance, there are no "maverick molecules" floating about that are not under His control. If there were, they would be sovereign over Him, and nothing He tells us, from His promises to His prophesies, could be counted on as things that will definitely be happening. He would still be a very powerful being, of course, but if a "maverick molecule" actually existed in the Universe, it would have the potential to mess up any (or every) plan He ever had/promise He ever made. It would, in effect, be a kind of god over Him :eek:

My suggestion is that the way the word “gift” as is commonly thought of might be inappropriate. When the Apostle Paul uses “gift” as a reference to salvation it does not refer to a gift as being the reception of “saving grace” or saving faith or even belief. Gift used in the sense of receiving something which the believer receives is the wrong idea, for when the Apostle Paul uses gift as a metaphor for Salvation he is referring to the fact that it cannot be bought or earned but salvation is given without regard to merit. It is not as if salvation is a gift, but salvation is being received spiritually into Christ without merit. Christians do not unwrap undeserved packages (gifts) which are from then on something they posses. I think and hope all believers know this difference intuitively but have not focused to make the distinction.

And that's basically what I mean by "gift", well, at least in part. Saving Faith is a gift from God that enables His Elect to "believe" and be saved. He gives us a new heart and a new spirit, and causes our heart of stone to become a heart of flesh .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3, and in doing so quickens us from spiritual death to spiritual life so that we can believe .. e.g. Ephesians 2:1-5. That's why God is given the credit for something we do, "believe", even though we are the ones who 'do' the believing.

David St_Worm2 posted:

“We believe that what He offers is irresistible, but we are still the ones who freely choose to believe and actually do the believing.”

For me it seems the first part of this quote, “We believe that what He offers is irresistible," is direct contradiction of the second part, "but we are still the ones who freely choose to believe and actually do the believing.”

If Calvinist believe “we are still the ones who freely choose to believe and actually do the believing” would you define irresistible?

In the case of God and His offer of salvation to us, both He and the offer are so good, so "irresistible" ;), that none who receive this particular offer from Him, IOW, none who who are drawn by the Father and are given to the Son will refuse to go to Him and be saved.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" ~John 6:44

Yours and His,
David

John 10
26 “You do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
 
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