Could Someone Explain Calvinism?

[St_Worm2]

I guess I'll check to see if there's a similar thread there, or maybe get around to starting one someday, or maybe we can work it into that planned thread in TT. Just when I thought things are finally improving, it seems I may be at a bit of a new crossroads, so rather than wait for a "good time" to begin it, I may have to carve out a good time.

Thanks for the links.

Hi Anastasia, just let me know and I'll be there (Dv). Keeping it as an exchange of ideas/discussion, rather than a knockdown, drag-out debate, will require regular input on your part, of course, as well your best ambassadorial skills

But if anyone can do it, you can

In Christ,
David

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

Probably better asked here. Asking something like that outside of the Reformed forum is much the same as asking a ditch digger about diamonds.

 

[Leevo]

While I appreciate your information, it doesn't answer the question. How can God, who is love, create people just to dump them into hell because He hasn't elected them?

I jokingly often refer to Calvinism as the "to heaven with me, to hell with the world" theological system. I am just kidding of course when I say that, and I view the normal, non-hyper, Calvinists as brothers in Christ. In reality, it is much more complex than what I said and I can't actually offer a great explanation on Calvinism for you, as I am firmly planted in the opposite camp, Arminianism. From reading what you have wrote here thus far, it seems to me that you may fit into said camp and I would ask that you check into Arminianism. I am a member of an Arminian group called the Society of Evangelical Arminians.

Here are four links for you, and anyone who reads this to check out. The first is to our FACTS vs.TULIP page, which essentially outlines our beliefs in the acronym "FACTS" and compares them to the Calvinists acronym "TULIP." The second, is to our FACTS of Salvation page, which goes into more detail about our beliefs. The third is to the Society of Evangelical Arminians home page, where you can find/read great articles and search for answers to common questions as well as learn more about the SEA. And the third is the link to our Facebook Outreach page, where people who are interested in the Society itself and becoming a member of the organization can inquire as to how to go about it. Peace be with you.


1. An Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism vs. The TULIP of Calvinism
2. The FACTS of Salvation: A Summary of Arminian Theology/the Biblical Doctrines of Grace
3. John Wesley, Contemporary Wesleyanism and the Reformed Tradition
4. Masuk Facebook | Facebook

 

[rockytopva]

Leevo... Thanks for sharing.

 

[Kiterius]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

He doesn't want any of us living in heaven. Not long-term anyway. Heaven is a type of waiting room for us. The great eschatological hope of Christianity is life everlasting on the New Earth.

 

[hooverbranch]

I mention the church congregations as the Calvinistic people are in their own congregation, they do not believe Salvation like the rest of the churches. As for the election, a Calvinist can give you a better answer.

I had a book ministry at work in which some guy wanted to get saved but not in my Pentecostal Holiness church. So I took him to a Calvinistic Baptist church. Well, they had a Franklin Graham testimonial film and my friend goes up to get saved... Only... There is no altar! Some guy gets my friend and takes him to a Sunday School room and begins to talk all that doctrine.... Now get the picture... Here is a guy ready to receive Christ with tears running down his cheek and he is getting doctrinized! I was thinking to myself for the crying out loud say the sinners prayer! Let him acknowledge Christ so he can go through to salvation!

That is sad about your friend... I grew up in a Church that would of done the same thing...

To the original question that was purposed on this thread though. I would consider myself a 5 point Calvinist, but most other Calvinist might not consider me that... and here is why.

I believe that the Points made up by John Calvins followers are biblically true. And they are also a reflection of what Saint Augustine was saying 1200 years prior. But I also believe many points of what Jacob Armen was saying. The question is how can I agree with both sides when they are in contradiction? And I would argue they arent.

Because Biblically we are elect. Meaning that God chose us to Him and the Bible Clearly communicates that. (Ephesians 1, 1 Peter 1) But practically we have to choose him.

You see I strongly believe that when it comes to the Gospel both perspectives are covered in scripture. A glimpse of Gods perspective to allow us the reminder that we have nothing to boast in ourselves when it comes to Salvation. (Ephesians 2:8) And the practical Gospel message in verses like John 3:16, Romans 10:9, etc.

Now what happens when we focus too much on one perspective without the other?

Well in the Calvinist side we become Self inflated, prideful, frozen chosen, fools. We dont want to evangelize because well it's in Gods Will whether someone gets saved or not.

And on the Armenian side we become lacking of assurance of salvation, things can easily become about actions to assure your salvation, often times I see a de-emphasis on scripture. (Remember I am talking about extreme Armenians here)

So to some up my whole point here. I believe we should remember that we can not do anything in regards to Salvation without God. (Meaning He is what we should boast in not us) But from everything we can see and understand from our perspective, We Must Choose Him!!! And I am not talking about a Robotic I will choose Him because He chose me. I am saying that Romans 10:9 is a promise available for ANYONE who chooses Him.

 

[gordonhooker]

I think it more along the lines of the Santa Claus list only you don't get the choice of which list you will be on... apparently God does that for you. Seriously I did dig into it once a long while ago and it definitely did not ring true of a God or Love, mercy and compassion, but I am sure the Calvinist will say other wise. It would probably be best if you asked in the Calvinist forum.

 

[Your Alli]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

Calvinism is still a branch of Christianity.

Christians - individuals and nations who believe in Christ The Lord whose earthly name is Jesus.

Unelected - doesn't exist

Why ?
Egyptians, Persians ... Jews ...then the Romans, even Greeks, and other believes of various doctrine/theology all are ...firstly given life by God.

Meaning ...Having the ability to enjoy the privilege of life (air, love, and to love) ...

Secondly, each and every day God also sustains, the life of each individual.

Therefore proving God does love everyone, although because God sent His only begotten Son, all of mankind have a choice to believe in Him (Christ whose earthly name is Jesus)

Why would God allow us (any human being) into heaven where He and Christ dwells if they don't love, honour or believe in The One, He sent.

Your Alli

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hi Anastasia, just let me know and I'll be there (Dv). Keeping it as an exchange of ideas/discussion, rather than a knockdown, drag-out debate, will require regular input on your part, of course, as well your best ambassadorial skills

But if anyone can do it, you can

In Christ,
David

Will do. I think TT is a safer place, with the rules of that area. I really would like to keep everything informative and respectful.

I'll see if I'm able to start within a day or two. I might be slow going, but can probably work on it some.

 

[Widlast]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

To be brief, "Calvinism" is based upon the opinions of John Calvin, one of the "Protestant Reformers". Calvin's notion is that humans, even the very best, are completely corrupt, and not any one, on their best day, could do or think anything that was not completely evil.
So, from his point of view, God has chosen a certain number of people, "the elect", who will be saved, regardless of their personal behavior, wants, desires, bad habits, free will, or anything else. The rest of humanity will go to Hell, regardless of their personal behavior, wants, desires, bad habits, free will, or anything else.

There, Calvinism in a nutshell.

Frankly, Calvinism says a lot more about the nature of John Calvin than anything else.

 

[Because789]

I believe it is possible for all people to enter into heaven.
Revelation 14:13 "Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
"Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
This right before what sounds like the rapture of the church in Rev. 14:14–20. The dead in Christ may have to die, but perhaps the omnipotence of God and His Son can redeem them from hell.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I mention the church congregations as the Calvinistic people are in their own congregation, they do not believe Salvation like the rest of the churches.

This is going nowhere. You just keep repeating yourself. I will listen to something original IF it is a part of the thread

 

[Monk Brendan]

From reading what you have wrote here thus far, it seems to me that you may fit into said camp and I would ask that you check into Arminianism. I am a member of an Arminian group called the Society of Evangelical Arminian

Frankly, I wouldn't take to Arminianism either. I am an Eastern Catholic, so my view on salvation is somewhat different from Arminianism or Calvinism.

Here is what I believe:

1. I believe that Jesus Christ, at all times from His birth was both fully human and fully divine, and that through His death and glorious resurrection, he gave ALL the opportunity to get to heaven.
2. God's grace is supersubstantial. He pours down grace on any and all who hear the Word. He gives them the grace to understand, and the grace to believe.
3. All have sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God, But Christ's atoning death can and will wash away any sin.
4. There is no such thing as ELECTION, and people do have free will. By our choice, we can choose to follow God, or deny Him.
5. If we choose to follow Him, then He gives us the grace to resist temptation, and not give in to sin. If we choose to follow Him, that grace will lead us into heaven, where we will live in eternal joy.
6. If we choose to deny God, then He will continue to pour out grace upon us, hoping that we choose to follow Him, but if we die in denial, we are sent to hell for eternity.

It's not five points, and there is no acronym that you can make out of IGATII that makes sense.

I have found that for myself, it is easier to follow God in a pre-Reformation Church, within a liturgical background, where I can receive God's grace most fully in the Eucharist.

 

[rockytopva]

Frankly, I wouldn't take to Arminianism either. I am an Eastern Catholic, so my view on salvation is somewhat different from Arminianism or Calvinism.

Here is what I believe:

1. I believe that Jesus Christ, at all times from His birth was both fully human and fully divine, and that through His death and glorious resurrection, he gave ALL the opportunity to get to heaven.
2. God's grace is supersubstantial. He pours down grace on any and all who hear the Word. He gives them the grace to understand, and the grace to believe.
3. All have sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God, But Christ's atoning death can and will wash away any sin.
4. There is no such thing as ELECTION, and people do have free will. By our choice, we can choose to follow God, or deny Him.
5. If we choose to follow Him, then He gives us the grace to resist temptation, and not give in to sin. If we choose to follow Him, that grace will lead us into heaven, where we will live in eternal joy.
6. If we choose to deny God, then He will continue to pour out grace upon us, hoping that we choose to follow Him, but if we die in denial, we are sent to hell for eternity.

It's not five points, and there is no acronym that you can make out of IGATII that makes sense.

I have found that for myself, it is easier to follow God in a pre-Reformation Church, within a liturgical background, where I can receive God's grace most fully in the Eucharist.

I agree with that. As I tried to point out, their doctrines on salvation are unique.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Calvinism is still a branch of Christianity.

I didn't say it wasn't!

Secondly, each and every day God also sustains, the life of each individual.

But if there is no salvation save the elect, then God has created and sustained us just to throw them in hell.

Why would God allow us (any human being) into heaven where He and Christ dwells if they don't love, honour or believe in The One, He sent.

But that is not what He has said, and to throw all those souls into hell because HE chose not to elect them is the worst type of monster.

If I am not elected, even though I pray, go to Church, live a pious life, have been born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit, He has created ME just to go to hell. You see, even though you may THINK you are elected, you don't KNOW for sure, as God does not reveal where you end up until after you are dead. And if You are not elected, You will end up in hell too.

 

[thesunisout]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

God created people who He foreknew wouldn't receive Him, but to me the relevant question is whether they had the opportunity to be saved at all. I believe that all people do have that opportunity because the scripture tells us that God desires that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. Why would He desire that if He created people to specifically perish? It doesn't make sense to me. I am fully willing to admit that things that don't make sense to me could somehow be true, but in my study of the scripture I think the evidence leans towards the idea that those who are perishing were given an opportunity to be saved and rejected it.

 

[Leevo]

Frankly, I wouldn't take to Arminianism either. I am an Eastern Catholic, so my view on salvation is somewhat different from Arminianism or Calvinism.

Here is what I believe:

1. I believe that Jesus Christ, at all times from His birth was both fully human and fully divine, and that through His death and glorious resurrection, he gave ALL the opportunity to get to heaven.
2. God's grace is supersubstantial. He pours down grace on any and all who hear the Word. He gives them the grace to understand, and the grace to believe.
3. All have sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God, But Christ's atoning death can and will wash away any sin.
4. There is no such thing as ELECTION, and people do have free will. By our choice, we can choose to follow God, or deny Him.
5. If we choose to follow Him, then He gives us the grace to resist temptation, and not give in to sin. If we choose to follow Him, that grace will lead us into heaven, where we will live in eternal joy.
6. If we choose to deny God, then He will continue to pour out grace upon us, hoping that we choose to follow Him, but if we die in denial, we are sent to hell for eternity.

It's not five points, and there is no acronym that you can make out of IGATII that makes sense.

I have found that for myself, it is easier to follow God in a pre-Reformation Church, within a liturgical background, where I can receive God's grace most fully in the Eucharist.

Everything you described is what we believe as Arminians in the SEA. Other Arminians may disagree with some, but certainly not all, of your points but at least within the SEA the only thing we would challenge you on is that there is election but not in the Calvinist sense. Scripture shows us that. We at SEA typically hold to one of two views on the elect of God, either a) that election is based on God's foreknowledge of who would come to Christ, or b) corporate election. The jury is still out for me as to which of the two views I hold to, but the former is the one I have leaned towards in the past. I compared what you wrote to our "Survey: Are You an Arminian and Don't Even Know It?" article and you are definitely close to agreement with our theology, at least from what I gathered here!

Check it out and see for yourself!
Survey: Are You an Arminian and Don’t Even Know It?

Peace, brother!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All people have free will and the opportunity to be saved. The only individuals who God leaves out of the book of life since the foundation of the world are those people who take the mark of the beast and worship him.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8).

"...and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world," (Revelation 17:8).​

Obviously God is aware of those who worship the beast (of their own free will) in the future whereby God then leaves their name out of the book of life before the 6 day creation. However, God did not choose to create an unelect group who would reject Him in such a way. That wouldn't make any sense. People choose to reject God. However, God is simply aware of their future free will choices and He can declare for some wicked people like those who worship the beast will not even have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life to begin with. Why are they singled out? Because what these particular wicked people will do is really, really, really bad.


...

 

[JoeP222w]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

The whole question boils down to:

Is God sovereign or is man sovereign?

Is God, the Creator, able to do with His creation as He wills or does He submit to the created being, man?


Romans 9:13-23 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

 

[JoeP222w]

Calvinism is a set of five doctrines (known through the acronym of TULIP) that arose in the 16th Century. That's 1500 years after Christ, after the Church began. I guess the Church was really stupid for 1500 years.
It makes perfect logical sense, with each point supporting the other four points. The problem is, IT PROPOSES A GOD WHO IS A MONSTER, who creates people with no chance of receiving the gosple and then tortures them for all eternity in hell for no other reason that that He wishes it (that they did not, at his choice, receive the gospel). In Calvinism, Jesus God doesn't so love the WORLD that he gave his only begotten soon, but instead Christ dies ONLY for Christians. We don't choose Christ, but are like computer programs that can only do what God has preprogrammed.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) - There is no goodness in us at all, NONE -- forget being made in the image of God.

Unconditional Election - Salvation is not based on anything we do, not on our faith, not on our baptism, not on our beliefs -- all these things are God's doing, and not ours. Our salvations was planned before the beginning of the universe and is based on God's whim, not a reason that has anything to do with us.

Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) - Jesus died only for those he has chosen in advance to be saved.

Irresistible Grace - We cannot choose to resist salvation -- again, we are total robots just doing what God has preplanned. THERE IS NO FREE WILL, only God's will.

Perseverance of the Saints - Also known as Once Saved Always Saved. If a Christian murders someone and dies before they repent again, well then they weren't really a Christian in the first place. If a Christian leaves the Church and joins another religion, then they weren't really a Christian in the first place. This is circular reasoning, and not what the early Church believed. The early Church believed in Apostacy.

You have displayed many common misconceptions and mischaracterizations and oversimplification of Calvinism.