Could Someone Explain Calvinism?

[DingDing]

Hey DD, you are quite correct, our understanding of the "T" in TULIP is the foundational premise of the 5 points of Calvinism. Of course, I don't believe that the "free willers" among us, be they Protestants, Lutherans, Baptists, etc., or even our RC friends (not totally sure about the Orthodox ) would argue against the pervasive and detrimental effects of Original Sin (apart from God's intervention anyway), so I think it may come down to our different understanding of the scope and effect of God's enabling grace as well, yes? (what my Arminian friends refer to as "Prevenient Grace").

When you get your thread started about corporate vs individual election, I would be interested, so please let me know

Yours in Christ,
David
p.s. - the game is on again, gotta go

I will let you know... Yesterday turned into tax day, family day, and Superbowl Sunday. I haven't even finished my taxes yet. I will try to get something out tomorrow - besides my taxes.

 

[St_Worm2]

No rush brother, as I will still be interested whenever you do have time to get the thread up As I mentioned earlier, your perspective on corporate election (and perhaps a link or two detailing it as well) would be a welcome opening to your new thread, so we can all begin on the same page.

Thanks!

--David

 

[DingDing]

No rush brother, as I will still be interested whenever you do have time to get the thread up As I mentioned earlier, your perspective on corporate election (and perhaps a link or two detailing it as well) would be a welcome opening to your new thread, so we can all begin on the same page.

Thanks!

--David

I have been thinking how best to present it. My experience has been that those who have thought along the individual election line for a long time have a hard time switching gears - it is not "natural" for them. I am thinking while I am doing taxes - if God allows such a thing.

 

[St_Worm2]

I have been thinking how best to present it. My experience has been that those who have thought along the individual election line for a long time have a hard time switching gears - it is not "natural" for them.

I agree! Building at least the beginning of a logical/Biblical case for it would be a great idea/very helpful I would think

I am thinking while I am doing taxes - if God allows such a thing.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I would be interested in your perspective too. Not sure I have much to say, but I'd like to follow along.

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't see what the fuss is about.
Individuals get elected... some of those individuals belong to a particular group...

I have no problem seeing that Israel was predestined as a group, and yet not every member of Israel was saved, but I understand being chosen as a people did not mean that every Israeli would be saved in the first place.

Still, none of that precludes God's careful consideration of each member of whatever group, and how that individual will figure in His overall plan, ie:

"...to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Rick, you'll get no argument from me Like you, all of us who believe in individual election, also understand the corporate side of it as well. There are those, however, who do not believe that God elects individuals, that election is corporate only, so I'll be interested to see what DingDing has to say.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Rick Otto]

Hi Rick, you'll get no argument from me Like you, all of us who believe in individual election, also understand the corporate side of it as well. There are those, however, who do not believe that God elects individuals, that election is corporate only, so I'll be interested to see what DingDing has to say.

Yours and His,
David

LOL,... yeah. Predictably interesting.

 

[DingDing]

I agree! Building at least the beginning of a logical/Biblical case for it would be a great idea/very helpful I would think

Okay, it is Wednesday and I just got home, but have to be gone until Saturday. So I am aiming for sometime Saturday. This has been a long week.

 

[DingDing]

Hey DD, ...

When you get your thread started about corporate vs individual election, I would be interested, so please let me know

Yours in Christ,
David
p.s. - the game is on again, gotta go

Okay, I finally made time and started a new thread. I didn't know where best to put it so I put it in the Salvation folder in the General Theology section.

 

[TaiKamiya720]

Monk Brendan, Calvinism is a belief system within Protestantism that believes that a salvation of man is totally 100% dependent on God. God, here, randomly chooses who would be saved and who would not. Calvinists also believe that everyone is born guilty of Adam and Eve's sinful act at the garden. Calvinists, also believe that Jesus died only to save a certain group of people. For this reason, many, but not all Calvinists, like the Westboro Baptist Church, believes that the Bible says "hate the sin and the sinner", which explains why after a tragedy, like a mass shooting, extreme Calvinists, like the WBC, celebrate these tragedies by picketing at funerals and say that God caused that certain tragedy because he hates the sinners in that area. That is the eventual fruit of certain, but again, not all, Calvinists. Other examples of Calvinists are John MacArthur, SO4J (so4j.com), SD Houdmann of gotquestions.org, Fritz Chery of biblereasons.com, and Matt Slick of CARM. Calvinists are well-meaning with the point that we can't make ourselves good before God and that He sent Jesus to die to help us from sin, which is mostly true. But it's a fact that God really loves everyone and wants them all to be saved through Jesus Christ. It's like a rescue helicopter trying to save a boat stranded at sea and the rescue helicopter is Jesus and the stranded people are the boat are the sinners. The people in the stranded boat cannot get to safety by themselves, so their choice of whether to climb the life cage thrown down by the rescue helicopter to pick the stranded people up, ultimately determines whether they are saved or not. God sent Jesus Christ to get humanity out of the sinful mess of the world.

 

[St_Worm2]

...many, but not all Calvinists, like the Westboro Baptist Church, believes that the Bible says "hate the sin and the sinner", which explains why after a tragedy, like a mass shooting, extreme Calvinists, like the WBC, celebrate these tragedies by picketing at funerals and say that God caused that certain tragedy because he hates the sinners in that area. That is the eventual fruit of certain, but again, not all, Calvinists.

WOW, so, "MANY, but not all", Calvinists believe and teach what the WBC does? The WBC may claim to be a Christian church, TK, but their "claim" doesn't make it true

Quite frankly, you could have just as easily said that, "just like Adolf Hitler (who was born and raised Roman Catholic), MANY, but not all, Roman Catholics hate Jews and Judaism, celebrate their deaths, and believe that God does so as well".

Perhaps Roman Catholics will be your next target?

Normally, I would ask someone like you, someone who makes such outrageous statements about others and/or other groups or churches, to produce some kind of evidence proving what they've said is true. However, since I know that the WBC is a completely independent group, and since I already know that there is no evidence to support your ridiculous accusations, I won't bother asking you for any!!
.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Monk Brendan, Calvinism is a belief system within Protestantism that believes that a salvation of man is totally 100% dependent on God. God, here, randomly chooses who would be saved and who would not. Calvinists also believe that everyone is born guilty of Adam and Eve's sinful act at the garden. Calvinists, also believe that Jesus died only to save a certain group of people. For this reason, many, but not all Calvinists, like the Westboro Baptist Church, believes that the Bible says "hate the sin and the sinner", which explains why after a tragedy, like a mass shooting, extreme Calvinists, like the WBC, celebrate these tragedies by picketing at funerals and say that God caused that certain tragedy because he hates the sinners in that area. That is the eventual fruit of certain, but again, not all, Calvinists. Other examples of Calvinists are John MacArthur, SO4J (so4j.com), SD Houdmann of gotquestions.org, Fritz Chery of biblereasons.com, and Matt Slick of CARM. Calvinists are well-meaning with the point that we can't make ourselves good before God and that He sent Jesus to die to help us from sin, which is mostly true. But it's a fact that God really loves everyone and wants them all to be saved through Jesus Christ. It's like a rescue helicopter trying to save a boat stranded at sea and the rescue helicopter is Jesus and the stranded people are the boat are the sinners. The people in the stranded boat cannot get to safety by themselves, so their choice of whether to climb the life cage thrown down by the rescue helicopter to pick the stranded people up, ultimately determines whether they are saved or not. God sent Jesus Christ to get humanity out of the sinful mess of the world.

Is the linking of Calvinism with the WBC an honest and charitable act? It shuts down grownup debate, quite frankly.

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP Q: "Could Someone Explain Calvinism?"
OKAY...Here goes!
The "theology" of Calvin....And the Scripture supporting the pro's and con's.

THE CALVINIST T. U. L. I. P. REFUTED BY SCRIPTURE? PRO's and CON's

PRO:

What is Calvinism? | carm ....neutral good explanation!

Calvinism Refuted

Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist

Calvinism Refuted By Scripture

Reformed Theology Doctrines of Grace CALVINISM REFUTED

CON:

The Five Points of Calvinism Afterward by John MacArthur ...watch his definitions of TULIP?

Five points of calvinism

Does the Bible Teach Calvinism? A Look at ”the Five Points of Calvinism”


Would Calvin and his primary work agree or disagree with THESE 5 points ...stated in THESE ways ??

(1) Sinners are utterly helpless to redeem themselves or to contribute anything meritorious toward their own salvation (Rom 8:7-8).

{saved by undeserved Grace through spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF...NOT by "works...Ephesians 2)

(2) God is sovereign in the exercise of His saving Will (Eph 1:4-5).

{God is all-everything and sovreign in ALL. He fore-knows who will accept or reject His gracious provisions for salvation THROUGH God the Son}

(3) Christ died as a substitute who bore the full weight of God's wrath on behalf of "His people",
and his atoning work is efficacious for their salvation (Isa. 53:5).

{ Jesus the God-Man was the perfect "substitutionary atonement" for: ALL men ALL sins All time. Man's "free will" chooses to accept / reject}

(4) God's saving purpose cannot be thwarted (John 6:37), meaning none of Christ's true sheep will ever be lost (John 10:27-29).

{ God's will WILL be done in ALL things.His work in salvation cannot be UNDONE. No loss of spiritual POSITION, only forgiveness of Sins.
Eternal security for the saved spirits of true believers. Once an adopted son...Always an adopted son.}

(5) God assures the perseverance of His elect (Jude 24; Phil 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5).

{DEFINE TERMS: "perseverance"..."elect" . God the Holy Spirit indwells ALL believers, comforts them, sanctifies them, strengthens them,
guides them into the will of God and into good works prepared for them. But saved man continues to sin ...he falls short of God's perfection.
BEGIN: a battle in Spirit / Soul between his old natural man and his NEW creature in Christ. BUT he can claim "forgiveness of sins" as a benefit of salvation purchased by the blood of Jesus the God-Man.

 

[Episaw]

Monk Brendan, Calvinism is a belief system within Protestantism that believes that a salvation of man is totally 100% dependent on God. God, here, randomly chooses who would be saved and who would not.

Calvinists also believe that everyone is born guilty of Adam and Eve's sinful act at the garden. Calvinists, also believe that Jesus died only to save a certain group of people.

For this reason, many, but not all Calvinists, like the Westboro Baptist Church, believes that the Bible says "hate the sin and the sinner", which explains why after a tragedy, like a mass shooting, extreme Calvinists, like the WBC, celebrate these tragedies by picketing at funerals and say that God caused that certain tragedy because he hates the sinners in that area. That is the eventual fruit of certain, but again, not all, Calvinists.

Other examples of Calvinists are John MacArthur, SO4J (so4j.com), SD Houdmann of gotquestions.org, Fritz Chery of biblereasons.com, and Matt Slick of CARM.

Calvinists are well-meaning with the point that we can't make ourselves good before God and that He sent Jesus to die to help us from sin, which is mostly true. But it's a fact that God really loves everyone and wants them all to be saved through Jesus Christ.

It's like a rescue helicopter trying to save a boat stranded at sea and the rescue helicopter is Jesus and the stranded people are the boat are the sinners. The people in the stranded boat cannot get to safety by themselves, so their choice of whether to climb the life cage thrown down by the rescue helicopter to pick the stranded people up, ultimately determines whether they are saved or not. God sent Jesus Christ to get humanity out of the sinful mess of the world.

Can I urge you to use paragraphs as it makes it easier to read. One topic per paragraph. I have redone your post to show how it works.

 

[TaiKamiya720]

I did NOT say most Calvinists are like the WBC or say "hate sin and sinners". There are some very caring Calvinists. So I did NOT say that Calvinism neccesarily leads people to hate sinners. In fact, I know some Calvinists who don't like how the WBC judges and mocks sinners.

The other Calvinists I explained like SD Houdmann, Matt Slick, John MacArthur, and Fritz Chery show compassion for sinners.

As a matter of fact, I sometimes use biblereasons.com, done by Chery, to edify myself on Christian morality and trust in Jesus, while also disagreeing with his Calvinistic doctrine.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I did NOT say most Calvinists are like the WBC or say "hate sin and sinners". There are some very caring Calvinists. So I did NOT say that Calvinism neccesarily leads people to hate sinners. In fact, I know some Calvinists who don't like how the WBC judges and mocks sinners.

The other Calvinists I explained like SD Houdmann, Matt Slick, John MacArthur, and Fritz Chery show compassion for sinners.

As a matter of fact, I sometimes use biblereasons.com, done by Chery, to edify myself on Christian morality and trust in Jesus, while also disagreeing with his Calvinistic doctrine.

I read what you said as "extreme Calvinists such as WBC" ... setting them apart from other Cakvinists. Though I'm not at all sure whether WBC represents any sort of Calvinism at all - they are just too bizarre to me.

However, it appears others have understood your words differently. And I do understand the basic reaction of anyone compared to WBC (or thinking they are being compared to them) would not be good ...

I hope we can all take a step back, understand, forgive, and be at peace. I'm not chastising or defending anyone. This was an unfortunate interlude between brothers in Christ. I pray we can restore good communication.

 

[Rakis]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

Be not dismayed or troubled for in my fathers house there are many mansions my brother many things "hhhah" on this side of heaven "hhhah" that will make NO sense "hhhah" so when you touch down "hhhah" be free to ask than "hhhah" get I get a witness up in here?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I know some Calvinists who don't like how the WBC judges and mocks sinners.

Some?! Every single Calvinist I know doesn't like what the WBC does, and I actually know Calvinists.

There are some very caring Calvinists

Again, you say, "some", as if it's a minority. I've been to many Calvinistic churches over the last 15 years, and only a handful of people weren't "very caring", which I think would be the ratio in most churches.

Most Calvinists are very caring.

 

[St_Worm2]

I did NOT say most Calvinists are like the WBC or say "hate sin and sinners". In fact, I know some Calvinists who don't like how the WBC judges and mocks sinners.

Hi TK, you're right, you didn't say "most", what you said was "many .. but not all"!

Just to be clear, I realize that the WBC "claims" to hold to the 5 points of Calvinism, but saying that doesn't make them Calvinists (nor do they 'claim' to be Calvinists) any more than their claiming to be "Christian" makes that a fact. They use some of the 5 Points of Calvinism, just like they use Christianity, by bending/distorting what both teach to further their own agenda.

The fact is, NO Reformed denomination (Presbyterian/Reformed Baptist, etc.), espouses anything resembling the views of the WBC, nor do any local churches within those denominations. And if an individual member chose to do so publicly, they would be brought before their Elder board and asked to either recant their views or leave (IOW, they would be disciplined and put out of the church for such beliefs if they did not fully and publicly recant of them, as I'm sure they would be in the EOC ).

So there are not "MANY" Reformed Churches and/or individual Calvinists who believe what the racist, homophobic, hate-filled WBC does (or even just a "few"), rather, there are NONE!!

If you have evidence to the contrary, about a church or an individual within the Reformed faith, then show us the evidence (as I would want to know who they are). As I said in my original reply to you however, you won't find any, because Calvinists are, first and foremost, Christians, and Christians do not hold to the tenets of hate groups like the WBC.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - BTW, the ones you've called "Extreme" Calvinists are actually referred to as "Hyper-Calvinists". They believe, among other things, that God "caused" the Fall. Calvinists do not recognize them as "Calvinists" because of their beliefs, rather, we believe that they are, at best, heretical. That said, neither Hyper-Calvinist churches nor their members hold to the hate-filled tenets/rhetoric of the WBC.

In all of this you have been, at best, BADLY mistaken.