Could Someone Explain Calvinism?

[Monk Brendan]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

I believe that the Calvin doctrine come out of the Sardisean church age. In the will of John Calvin it states...

"First, I give thanks to God, that taking compassion on me whom he had created and placed in this world, he not only delivered me by his power out of the deep darkness of idolatry, into which I was plunged, that he might bring me into the light of his gospel, and make me a partaker of the doctrine of salvation, of which I was most unworthy; that with the same goodness and mercy he has graciously and kindly borne with my multiplied transgressions and sins, for which I deserved to be rejected and cut off by him; and has also exercised towards me such great compassion and clemency, that he has condescended to use my labor in preaching and publishing the truth of his gospel. I also testify and declare, that it is my full intention to pass the remainder of my life in the same faith and religion, which he has delivered to me by his gospel; having no other defense or refuge of salvation than his gratuitous adoption, on which alone my safety depends." - John Calvin (Calvinism Soteriology Topics)

John Calvin sought to lay doctrines on salvation, in which if interested, you can spend your lifetime studying. As this is Sardisean age doctrine, the Lord also had a few things to say...

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3

If you want to test whether or not someone is true blooded Sardisean just try to threaten their salvation or try to convince them that they are not eternally secure!

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hi, Sir.

You've just asked the equivalent of, Define the universe and give 3 examples.

There is what is called Calvinism, and lots of ppl won't even agree as to the rudiments of what it is.

Then there is Calvin, who died in 1564.

Then there are the 5 Points of Calvinism, dating from 1618/19.

Then there are politics in Geneva (which at the time of Calvin's life was not part of Switzerland).

Then there are - or were - politics in The Netherlands, or rather the United Provinces. And politics in Scotland. And the political frameworks of North America which have somewhat influenced people and groups which from time to time have called themselves Calvinists.

Then there is the Bible. Clearly in the Bible there are Scriptures which refer to God's sovereignty and there are those which refer to human responsibility. Some people argue about these in terms of either/or. Well, in fact since both are Scriptural, I believe in letting Scripture speak for itself.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

I believe that the Calvin doctrine come out of the Sardisean church age. In the will of John Calvin it states...

"First, I give thanks to God, that taking compassion on me whom he had created and placed in this world, he not only delivered me by his power out of the deep darkness of idolatry, into which I was plunged, that he might bring me into the light of his gospel, and make me a partaker of the doctrine of salvation, of which I was most unworthy; that with the same goodness and mercy he has graciously and kindly borne with my multiplied transgressions and sins, for which I deserved to be rejected and cut off by him; and has also exercised towards me such great compassion and clemency, that he has condescended to use my labor in preaching and publishing the truth of his gospel. I also testify and declare, that it is my full intention to pass the remainder of my life in the same faith and religion, which he has delivered to me by his gospel; having no other defense or refuge of salvation than his gratuitous adoption, on which alone my safety depends." - John Calvin (Calvinism Soteriology Topics)

John Calvin sought to lay doctrines on salvation, in which if interested, you can spend your lifetime studying. As this is Sardisean age doctrine, the Lord also had a few things to say...

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3

If you want to test whether or not someone is true blooded Sardisean just try to threaten their salvation or try to convince them that they are not eternally secure!

Don't you think also some of these various tendencies can manifest themselves at various times in various churches and places?

After all, there were Laodicean tendencies then, and Laodicean tendencies now also.

 

[rockytopva]

Don't you think also some of these various tendencies can manifest themselves at various times in various churches and places?

After all, there were Laodicean tendencies then, and Laodicean tendencies now also.

Yes! Indeed! There is a tendency for all to be lukewarm and complacent! If you don't believe me just announce a prayer meeting and see how many shows!

I believe that there is a glory and a beauty to each church congregation. Even in Calvinistic churches, there can be a decency and a beauty, so I am not putting them down. I have even done a video tribute to the late Presbyterian (the Presbyterian are Calvinist) missionary John Geddie, who acted more a Philadelphian in leading a whole island chain to Christ!

 

[rockytopva]

Could it be, in this Laodicean age, that the congregations will come together again and become one? I mean, few are really fired up on church doctrine these days. I sat in on an independent Charismatic church meeting where I was looking over their literature. I made the comment to an elder that there was not much doctrine here. He smiled at me and said, "We like it that way!"

It may be in this last day that people will loose their congregational identities and simply will not care what congregation a fellow Christian belongs to!

 

[rockytopva]

Don't you think also some of these various tendencies can manifest themselves at various times in various churches and places?

After all, there were Laodicean tendencies then, and Laodicean tendencies now also.

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

The seven churches are a mystery. I can take my best stab at it, but am not rigid in my interpretation. There are notable differences though in the congregations.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Could it be, in this Laodicean age, that the congregations will come together again and become one? I mean, few are really fired up on church doctrine these days. I sat in on an independent Charismatic church meeting where I was looking over their literature. I made the comment to an elder that there was not much doctrine here. He smiled at me and said, "We like it that way!"

It may be in this last day that people will loose their congregational identities and simply will not care what congregation a fellow Christian belongs to!

I don't think the "solution" (to however the, or a, problem is stated) is to advocate one huge organizational amalgamation of churches. Acts 2.42 speaks of basic activities among Christians: continuing steadfastly in the Apostles' doctrine, and in fellowship, and in breaking of bread and prayers. These are the activities which are to be promoted at a personal and local level, rather than purportedly huge organizational amalgamations.

 

[rockytopva]

I don't think the "solution" (to however the, or a, problem is stated) is to advocate one huge organizational amalgamation of churches. Acts 2.42 speaks of basic activities among Christians: continuing steadfastly in the Apostles' doctrine, and in fellowship, and in breaking of bread and prayers. These are the activities which are to be promoted at a personal and local level, rather than purportedly huge organizational amalgamations.

I was brought up Baptist and found a presence of Christ in their many conferences. This is a strength to the Sardisean congregation, their ability to assemble and to organize conference. My Baptist church did great when they were part of a denomination. Once they became independent their attendance has went from at one time 400, to more like 40.

In our Pentecostal Holiness denomination we at one time had many great evangelist. The old evangelist passed away and our church has went from at one time 400, to more like 40.

There is an advantage to a church denomination / organization, if everything is assembled correctly.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I was brought up Baptist and found a presence of Christ in their many conferences. This is a strength to the Sardisean congregation, their ability to assemble and to organize conference. My Baptist church did great when they were part of a denomination. Once they became independent their attendance has went from at one time 400, to more like 40.

In our Pentecostal Holiness denomination we at one time had many great evangelist. The old evangelist passed away and our church has went from at one time 400, to more like 40.

There is an advantage to a church denomination / organization, if everything is assembled correctly.

What bothers me is the idea of committees of men trying to impose things from outside a local congregation onto that congregation. Whereas in the New Testament (e.g., Acts 20) the local congregation seems to have acted directly before the Lord.

Of course, the politically minded love the idea of manipulating congregations from outside.

 

[rockytopva]

It is hard also for me to define a Calvinist, as his teachings are in many denominations including Reformed, Baptist, and Presbyterian. The five points of Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) - We are born again by God's will and not our own
Unconditional Election - Again, God chooses his people by his own will and not our own.
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) - Jesus died only for the elect.
Irresistible Grace - When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist.
Perseverance of the Saints - Also known as Once Saved Always Saved

There may be some disagreement of some of the points, but this pretty much defines a Reformed, Calvinist, Baptist, Presbyterian believer. But, I thank God, not all the church congregations embraced this doctrine. I would place those who did as originating out of Sardisean times.

 

[rockytopva]

What bothers me is the idea of committees of men trying to impose things from outside a local congregation onto that congregation. Whereas in the New Testament (e.g., Acts 20) the local congregation seems to have acted directly before the Lord.

Of course, the politically minded love the idea of manipulating congregations from outside.

Which is why our Baptist church split from their conference. But... They have not prospered in their own directions.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi MB, if you'd like to hear from more Calvinists, you might want to post a some similar set of questions here instead (or you may find the answer you are looking for in a thread that already exists there). This is the "Ask a Calvinist" forum on the Semper Reformanda boards here at CF.

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[faroukfarouk]

Which is why our Baptist church split from their conference. But... They have not prospered in their own directions.

I would argue that solidifying independent congregations, with their preaching of the Word and local, Scriptural activities, into organizational conglomerates do not prosper them spiritually.

(But I guess we are getting a bit off topic.)

 

[rockytopva]

You could put a lot of time into studying the church congregations, as it is said in Ecclesiastes...

And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. - Ecclesiastes 12:12-13

 

[Open Heart]

Calvinism is a set of five doctrines (known through the acronym of TULIP) that arose in the 16th Century. That's 1500 years after Christ, after the Church began. I guess the Church was really stupid for 1500 years.
It makes perfect logical sense, with each point supporting the other four points. The problem is, IT PROPOSES A GOD WHO IS A MONSTER, who creates people with no chance of receiving the gosple and then tortures them for all eternity in hell for no other reason that that He wishes it (that they did not, at his choice, receive the gospel). In Calvinism, Jesus God doesn't so love the WORLD that he gave his only begotten soon, but instead Christ dies ONLY for Christians. We don't choose Christ, but are like computer programs that can only do what God has preprogrammed.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) - There is no goodness in us at all, NONE -- forget being made in the image of God.

Unconditional Election - Salvation is not based on anything we do, not on our faith, not on our baptism, not on our beliefs -- all these things are God's doing, and not ours. Our salvations was planned before the beginning of the universe and is based on God's whim, not a reason that has anything to do with us.

Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) - Jesus died only for those he has chosen in advance to be saved.

Irresistible Grace - We cannot choose to resist salvation -- again, we are total robots just doing what God has preplanned. THERE IS NO FREE WILL, only God's will.

Perseverance of the Saints - Also known as Once Saved Always Saved. If a Christian murders someone and dies before they repent again, well then they weren't really a Christian in the first place. If a Christian leaves the Church and joins another religion, then they weren't really a Christian in the first place. This is circular reasoning, and not what the early Church believed. The early Church believed in Apostacy.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

While I appreciate your information, it doesn't answer the question. How can God, who is love, create people just to dump them into hell because He hasn't elected them?

 

[rockytopva]

While I appreciate your information, it doesn't answer the question. How can God, who is love, create people just to dump them into hell because He hasn't elected them?

I mention the church congregations as the Calvinistic people are in their own congregation, they do not believe Salvation like the rest of the churches. As for the election, a Calvinist can give you a better answer.

I had a book ministry at work in which some guy wanted to get saved but not in my Pentecostal Holiness church. So I took him to a Calvinistic Baptist church. Well, they had a Franklin Graham testimonial film and my friend goes up to get saved... Only... There is no altar! Some guy gets my friend and takes him to a Sunday School room and begins to talk all that doctrine.... Now get the picture... Here is a guy ready to receive Christ with tears running down his cheek and he is getting doctrinized! I was thinking to myself for the crying out loud say the sinners prayer! Let him acknowledge Christ so he can go through to salvation!

 

[~Anastasia~]

While I have dipped my toe in the Assemblies of God, and have sat through a few Baptist services, I don't get the whole idea of God creating UN-elected people. I mean, if He loves everyone, wouldn't He want all of us to live with Him in heaven? I know that there are several passages in the Bible about election. But it still seems to me that God still loves everyone, and wants all of us to be in heaven with us.

Saw this thread and decided to pop in and subscribe, because I'm still trying to really understand. I think I've gotten close a few times, but then it always unravels somewhere. (That in itself is not meant as criticism, just a description of my efforts.

The only answer I've gotten from Calvinists (and I have no idea if it's one they all would endorse) runs along the lines of - He does it because He can, He does it to prove He can, or He does it to bring Himself glory.

I think that's where the "monster" in Open Heart's post comes in.

Calvinism is a set of five doctrines (known through the acronym of TULIP) that arose in the 16th Century. That's 1500 years after Christ, after the Church began. I guess the Church was really stupid for 1500 years.
It makes perfect logical sense, with each point supporting the other four points. The problem is, IT PROPOSES A GOD WHO IS A MONSTER, who creates people with no chance of receiving the gosple and then tortures them for all eternity in hell for no other reason that that He wishes it (that they did not, at his choice, receive the gospel). In Calvinism, Jesus God doesn't so love the WORLD that he gave his only begotten soon, but instead Christ dies ONLY for Christians. We don't choose Christ, but are like computer programs that can only do what God has preprogrammed.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) - There is no goodness in us at all, NONE -- forget being made in the image of God.

Unconditional Election - Salvation is not based on anything we do, not on our faith, not on our baptism, not on our beliefs -- all these things are God's doing, and not ours. Our salvations was planned before the beginning of the universe and is based on God's whim, not a reason that has anything to do with us.

Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) - Jesus died only for those he has chosen in advance to be saved.

Irresistible Grace - We cannot choose to resist salvation -- again, we are total robots just doing what God has preplanned. THERE IS NO FREE WILL, only God's will.

Perseverance of the Saints - Also known as Once Saved Always Saved. If a Christian murders someone and dies before they repent again, well then they weren't really a Christian in the first place. If a Christian leaves the Church and joins another religion, then they weren't really a Christian in the first place. This is circular reasoning, and not what the early Church believed. The early Church believed in Apostacy.

That comes across as maybe a little harsh in a few spots, but essentially accurate, especially in the case of hardcore 5-point Calvinists. I would love to see someone well-versed in Calvinism (and a believer in it, I suppose), answer those if there is a slant not quite right in there somewhere.

Hi MB, if you'd like to hear from more Calvinists, you might want to post a some similar set of questions here instead (or you may find the answer you are looking for in a thread that already exists there). This is the "Ask a Calvinist" forum on the Semper Reformanda boards here at CF.

Yours in Christ,
David

I guess I'll check to see if there's a similar thread there, or maybe get around to starting one someday, or maybe we can work it into that planned thread in TT. Just when I thought things are finally improving, it seems I may be at a bit of a new crossroads, so rather than wait for a "good time" to begin it, I may have to carve out a good time.

Thanks for the links.

 

[St_Worm2]

Calvinism is a set of five doctrines (known through the acronym of TULIP) that arose in the 16th Century. That's 1500 years after Christ, after the Church began. I guess the Church was really stupid for 1500 years.
It makes perfect logical sense, with each point supporting the other four points. The problem is, IT PROPOSES A GOD WHO IS A MONSTER, who creates people with no chance of receiving the gosple and then tortures them for all eternity in hell for no other reason that that He wishes it (that they did not, at his choice, receive the gospel). In Calvinism, Jesus God doesn't so love the WORLD that he gave his only begotten soon, but instead Christ dies ONLY for Christians. We don't choose Christ, but are like computer programs that can only do what God has preprogrammed.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) - There is no goodness in us at all, NONE -- forget being made in the image of God.

Unconditional Election - Salvation is not based on anything we do, not on our faith, not on our baptism, not on our beliefs -- all these things are God's doing, and not ours. Our salvations was planned before the beginning of the universe and is based on God's whim, not a reason that has anything to do with us.

Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) - Jesus died only for those he has chosen in advance to be saved.

Irresistible Grace - We cannot choose to resist salvation -- again, we are total robots just doing what God has preplanned. THERE IS NO FREE WILL, only God's will.

Perseverance of the Saints - Also known as Once Saved Always Saved. If a Christian murders someone and dies before they repent again, well then they weren't really a Christian in the first place. If a Christian leaves the Church and joins another religion, then they weren't really a Christian in the first place. This is circular reasoning, and not what the early Church believed. The early Church believed in Apostacy.

Hi Open Heart, Calvinism is rightly called "Augustinianism" (since there is little that Calvin and Luther taught us that finds its origins outside of the things that St. Augustine taught more than a millennium earlier), so the ideas that form the basis for the Doctrines of Grace (TULIP) and the 5 Solas of the Reformation have been around the church for a bit longer than 500 years.

St. Paul and a couple of other NT human authors appear to have had one or two things to say about these teachings as well

Yours in Christ,
David

"As many as had been appointed
to eternal life believed"
Acts 13:48​