Conversations with Staff in Married Forum

[Puffinstuff]

That's good to hear. I might have been having a small senior moment.

Happens to me too.I thought mothers day was next weekend not this one because I looked at the calendar without my reading glasses and its "memorial day" next week and I just saw m*****" d** and put that in my head.

 

[Chaplain David]

Honestly......I think more than that is necessary (especially when it comes to emotional/spiritual/financial abuse). Most people don't see that for what it is. That's why I made the point earlier, that it'd be helpful if we could freely discuss what is/isn't healthy.

What resources or hotlines are you thinking should be included?

We could make the request for inclusion to our Admin Kristen.newcreation who is the Recovery Manager and in charge of the hotlines.

 

[mkgal1]

it'd be helpful if we could freely discuss what is/isn't healthy.

What resources or hotlines are you thinking should be included?

We could make the request for inclusion to our Admin Kristen.newcreation who is the Recovery Manager and in charge of the hotlines.

As far as resources and hotlines, I think that Safe Place Ministries is a great resource as is the ECC ( Abusive Behaviors ). I'd also like for us to be able to voice our sincere opinions as to what is God honoring in our marriages (in which abuse would be excluded from that list).

“We need to begin articulating a faith that will provide women with resources for strength rather than resources for endurance. We must articulate a theology of empowerment rather than a theology of passive endurance.” – Joy Bussett, Battered Women: From Theology of Suffering to an Ethic of Empowerment

 

[Chaplain David]

As far as resources and hotlines, I think that Safe Place Ministries is a great resource as is the ECC ( Abusive Behaviors ). I'd also like for us to be able to voice our sincere opinions as to what is God honoring in our marriages (in which abuse would be excluded from that list).

I've made a note to myself about the hotlines.

I'm sorry that you don't feel like you can talk about God & Scripture in discussions (I hope I've paraphrased this accurately).

***Does anyone else feel this way? I've highlighted the applicable quote above in red. Certainly we should be able to talk about how our Faith leads us in these matters. PM's are welcome if anyone wants to talk about this but doesn't want to do it in this thread.

 

[MessianicMommy]

What resources or hotlines are you thinking should be included?

We could make the request for inclusion to our Admin Kristen.newcreation who is the Recovery Manager and in charge of the hotlines.

From another thread:

National Domestic Violence Hotline

Domestic Abuse -- Why They Do It

National Coalition Against Domestic Violence: Getting Help
Getting Help - National Coalition Against Domestic Violence

Domestic Abuse Information [based in the UK]


Domestic Violence and Abuse: Signs of Abuse and Abusive Relationships [US, Canada, UK and Australian hotlines listed]

Domestic Violence Agencies: Europe

PDF file of the Wheel of Power and Control
http://www.theduluthmodel.org/pdf/PowerandControl.pdf


http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com

Definition of Abuse
Abuse: Systematic pattern of behaviors in a relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain control and power over another. http://www.domesticabuseproject.org/...s_of_abuse.asp

Four Negative Patterns That Predict Divorce | AndersonCooper.com

Healing and Hope: WHEN HIS PUT-DOWNS SOUND TRUE

Do You Know How To Help A Domestic Violence Victim?

Hard Versus Bad | Today's Christian Woman

How to tell if he's not changing · Can abusers change? · Respect


I know others, but there's a limit to how many links one can post before the board goes wonky.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Is it my imagination or are there no men in this thread except Link and I?

*Raises hand*

 

[MessianicMommy]

I've made a note to myself about the hotlines.

I'm sorry that you don't feel like you can talk about God & Scripture in discussions (I hope I've paraphrased this accurately).

***Does anyone else feel this way? I've highlighted the applicable quote above in red. Certainly we should be able to talk about how our Faith leads us in these matters. PM's are welcome if anyone wants to talk about this but doesn't want to do it in this thread.

Yes. Constantly.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

I've made a note to myself about the hotlines.

I'm sorry that you don't feel like you can talk about God & Scripture in discussions (I hope I've paraphrased this accurately).

***Does anyone else feel this way? I've highlighted the applicable quote above in red. Certainly we should be able to talk about how our Faith leads us in these matters. PM's are welcome if anyone wants to talk about this but doesn't want to do it in this thread.

It may not be so much that we can't, but more-so that a particular world-view or scriptural bent tends to dominate in threads that discuss abuse issues. Discussions that include advice to consider separation or counselling are criticised as 'not biblical' because no specific verses support these options (even though forum rules do allow for this type of advice to be given).

 

[ValleyGal]

I've made a note to myself about the hotlines.

I'm sorry that you don't feel like you can talk about God & Scripture in discussions (I hope I've paraphrased this accurately).

***Does anyone else feel this way? I've highlighted the applicable quote above in red. Certainly we should be able to talk about how our Faith leads us in these matters. PM's are welcome if anyone wants to talk about this but doesn't want to do it in this thread.

In some discussions, yes. Unfortunately, how we all interpret scripture factors in, and this can become an issue for debate. People are very emotional about their beliefs.
ETA: I am thinking in context of "submission" and abuse, and how a wife is supposed to "submit" (as though that would make an abuser stop abusing). But the argument is that men are not told to "submit" (which I disagree with, but that's how some people think), so the policy flies in favour of the husband even if he is abusive. This is why some of us feel like we cannot have a biblical discussion....the policies say we can't talk about submission, but we also can't offer divorce. These policies can be devastating to someone in that kind of situation, and in truth, add to their abuse.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Double Post

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Also, an excellent link regarding male victims of DV:

Male Victims of Domestic Violence - AARDVARC.org

 

[mkgal1]

IMO......this is a good and succinct way of describing the distinction between a healthy relationship and an abusive one:

A healthy relationship is reciprocal. Each partner must possess a measure of healthy self-acceptance and acceptance of the other. It is mutually understood that there is a constant give and take, with ongoing sacrifice and concession, each partner knowing that their giving will eventually be returned.

By comparison, the abusive relationship is one-sided. The abusive partner, who denies vulnerability and human imperfection, is unable to participate reciprocally. The partner's imperfections are experienced as a personal assault.

This broken individual desperately needs to feel invincible, to win, and be in control. Being wrong, having to "give in," give up, or to place another’s needs before their own is unacceptable. The only thing left, that feels somewhat OK, is to "win." If that's all there is, there is intense pressure to hold onto it.

 

[Chaplain David]

I've made a note to myself about the hotlines.

I'm sorry that you don't feel like you can talk about God & Scripture in discussions (I hope I've paraphrased this accurately).

***Does anyone else feel this way? I've highlighted the applicable quote above in red. Certainly we should be able to talk about how our Faith leads us in these matters. PM's are welcome if anyone wants to talk about this but doesn't want to do it in this thread.

Yes. Constantly.

It may not be so much that we can't, but more-so that a particular world-view or scriptural bent tends to dominate in threads that discuss abuse issues. Discussions that include advice to consider separation or counselling are criticised as 'not biblical' because no specific verses support these options (even though forum rules do allow for this type of advice to be given).

In some discussions, yes. Unfortunately, how we all interpret scripture factors in, and this can become an issue for debate. People are very emotional about their beliefs.
ETA: I am thinking in context of "submission" and abuse, and how a wife is supposed to "submit" (as though that would make an abuser stop abusing). But the argument is that men are not told to "submit" (which I disagree with, but that's how some people think), so the policy flies in favour of the husband even if he is abusive. This is why some of us feel like we cannot have a biblical discussion....the policies say we can't talk about submission, but we also can't offer divorce. These policies can be devastating to someone in that kind of situation, and in truth, add to their abuse.

So I'm wondering how we can be more up front about our beliefs so we are true to ourselves (and God) but doing so in a manner that doesn't offend others. The first thing that comes to mind is something we discussed during the last Married 911 thread and that was "I" posts and not "you" this or "you" that. Also there was addressing/debating the topic and not the poster.

 

[Chaplain David]

MessianicMommy , Apostolic & Mkgal1 --- I've copied your abuse/violence relationship resources and will talk to Kristen.Newcreation. Thanks

 

[WalksWithChrist]

A New Dawn, thank you for sharing your experience. Thank God that you survived two terrible situations. You know abuse too well, and I pray God's continued healing for you.

You are right...typically abuse is extreme. Sometimes it's not so evident, but still a threat. Your second husband did not love you back, yet he made a vow to love you. If he is anything like my second husband, he could have a narcissistic personality disorder (not just garden-variety narcissism). They do not love anyone unless there is something in it for them, and discard people when there is nothing left in it for them. My friend warned me ahead of time that "it's all about HIM and never about YOU." We were only married a month due to the weekly beatings that came along with being an outspoken and vocal wife of a narcissist/abuser.

There is a turn to this. After I kicked him out, we went for counselling. In counselling, I talked about what my friend had said, that it's all about HIM. But that made ME come across as the selfish one, and the counsellor recommended that I go to a psychiatrist because there was something wrong with me. I did, and the diagnosis was HIS NPD. The counsellor got it wrong, because I spoke up and said something - anything - needs to be about me sometimes....relationships are reciprocal.

That is also abuse. It is the type that happens over many years of simply being treated less than human, or less than your spouse. Less than respectfully. And when it happens over time, people don't realize it's happened until 20 years later when they wake up one day and realize they hate themselves, feel worthless, devalued by the one who vowed to love them.

Where to draw the line? The person is "safe" but could be totally suicidal because of the devaluation the spouse has lavished on them for decades.

Another part of this is the reasons for divorce Biblically. I affirm the Bible as the final authority of God's holy word. I affirm everything in it is true and can be taken literally, within the context of culture, language, writing style, recipient, authorship, purpose, etc. I realize that there are many interpretations of the whole divorce subject and everyone has their thoughts. I have been divorced a couple of times as well, know the pain it causes, and do NOT advocate that people run to divorce court for any simple matter just because it's more convenient than working it out. But when I studied divorce, and see several reasons through scripture - adultery, idolatry (meaning putting other priorities above your spouse, not meaning about God), abandonment, and hardness of heart. Marriage is supposed to represent the relationship between Christ and the Church. This is mutual love, mutual submission, mutual sacrifice, mutual selflessness, mutual service. Yes, the Church violates this sometimes when self gets in the way, so there is mercy, grace, reconciliation. But the commitment is still there. There is still goodwill, affection for one another.

What happens when a believer decides to become selfish, when they do not have goodwill towards Jesus anymore, when they go their own way, when they do things on their own, when they start to disobey God? A hard heart sets in. It removes the right relationship. Look at God. In the OT he even gave Israel her certificate of divorce, but he took her back after seeing Judah was even worse than Israel. The point is that sometimes there is an end to it. Just as you are no longer with your second husband. You put up with it for many years, even though you were "safe" - you still divorced. He would not go for counselling (and even if he did, most stats show that counselling is rarely effective to keep a couple married and eventually increase marital satisfaction).

Hardness of heart is very difficult to live with - your husbands' hearts were hard, and you had to live with it. Eventually it was impossible to live with it.

There are a lot of people who turn to the internet forums because they can't afford counselling, because they are ashamed, because they are afraid, because their spouse won't attend counselling with them, and in my case because the counsellor figured I was the one with NPD rather than my husband (plus he made ME take responsibility for the beatings - if I had not done x my husband would not have hit me).

I guess I'm saying all this to suggest that maybe the policy could be revisited and maybe rewritten in a way that people can suggest divorce only as a last alternative, after every other alternative has run out, and/or in order to maintain the short and long term safety of both spouses, and to prevent direct or vicarious trauma in the children.

That last part is an excellent practical suggestion.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I saw some statistics last year that showed male abuse being equal to or greater than that females experience. The numbers are staggering any way you look at them.

I had bad verbal and emotional abuse growing up and was bullied terribly in high school. It was so lousy I left home at 15 and moved to another country. The abuse never stopped until the abuser died.

Things are a lot better today but being abused does set a person up for other problems too. I started counseling when I was 20 but didn't get serious about it until my 30's.

In my case some of the things the abuse spawned were substance abuse, anxiety problems, depression, and suicidal thoughts.

I wasn't saved until I was in my 40's although I've felt God in my life since I can remember. After I was saved and born again I got serious about my relationship with God through Christ Jesus. It is God, more than anything else that has helped me overcome the pain and shackles from abuse.

I'm not a chaplain or minister that is unfamiliar with the deep pains of life. I think they've helped me become better for it. I'm glad the Lord has drawn me to Him and given me a job where I can help others with the myriad of spiritual and emotional problems we as humans endure.

Many of us male and female after we come to terms with everything and are in some sort of counseling that leads to Recovery, go on to use our experience to try and help others. I wouldn't wish abuse on anyone. In my case however, I would not be the man I am today without it or have some of the qualities I'm glad I have.

God bless everyone.

Peace.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Is it my imagination or are there no men in this thread except Link and I?

*ahem*

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Also, an excellent link regarding male victims of DV:

Male Victims of Domestic Violence - AARDVARC.org

 

[mkgal1]

So I'm wondering how we can be more up front about our beliefs so we are true to ourselves (and God) but doing so in a manner that doesn't offend others. The first thing that comes to mind is something we discussed during the last Married 911 thread and that was "I" posts and not "you" this or "you" that. Also there was addressing/debating the topic and not the poster.

One thing that would help greatly is for admin. to not tolerate phrases such as "those that don't hold to Scriptural instruction" or "those that promote divorce". These phrases suggest that there's only *one* interpretation of Scripture (and that is their--the ones using that phrase). IMO.....those are subtle insults......goading. That, alone, doesn't present this forum well.

I don't believe anyone "promotes" divorce. Most people (including the people that are *in* these situations) don't *want* a divorce......I would be willing to go out on a limb and say *all* they want is for the abuse to stop and to be loved (and for their family to enjoy what comes with a healthy family for years to come).

 

[ValleyGal]

So I'm wondering how we can be more up front about our beliefs so we are true to ourselves (and God) but doing so in a manner that doesn't offend others. The first thing that comes to mind is something we discussed during the last Married 911 thread and that was "I" posts and not "you" this or "you" that. Also there was addressing/debating the topic and not the poster.

IME, when two people are in disagreement, saying "I"m right is the same as saying "you're" wrong.

Sometimes it's not about "you" statements so much as it is about what God *really* says (subjective interpretation).

For the most part, I have pretty thick skin, and I also really try to be diplomatic. People react emotionally to the topics of marriage, divorce, remarriage, abuse, submission, etc. That is natural, since it touches on a person's perceived sense of identity (values, beliefs, power balance, etc).

Even when we are tactful, imo, this is more about policy, and how those policies affect the people they are meant to serve.